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Posts 193
Kendall Sholtess | Forum Activity | Posted: Sat, Feb 29 2020 7:38 PM

Pentecostal and Charismatic Base packages should be separated and distinguished from each other.

A Pentecostal Base Package should have something similar to the Wesleyan Base Package with additional works by strictly Pentecostal publishers. Other works that could be added are some from the Baptist stream. It is not appropriate to add works which stem from the independent Charismatic movement, such as C. Peter Wagner, Dutch Sheets, Cindy Jacobs, et al. Theologically and practically they are very different from Pentecostals.

A Charismatic Base package should include Baptist, Presbyterian, some Pentecostal works, Independent Charismatic works (Dutch Sheets et al). It should be much more varied denominationally than the Pentecostal Package is. Charismatic refers to non-Pentecostals from various denominations or independent movements who do not belong in the Pentecostal category. C Peter Wagner, Dutch Sheets, Cindy Jacobs, and many of the earlier such as J Rodman Williams.

In general, in my opinion, traditional Pentecostals would object to too much Independent Charismatic material in their base package. I believe that Faithlife needs to do more research on this. If their researcher is Charismatic, they may not fully understand the difference. The reason is not that Charismatics are ignorant, God forbid, that's not what I am saying. But Charismatics are far more open and accepting of novel ideas (e.g. Open Theism [C Peter Wagner, Harold Eberle], Calvinism [Sam Storms, Wayne Grudem]) than traditional Pentecostals.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 29 2020 8:16 PM

I'm no expert on the topic but my simplistic rule of thumb has been:

  • Pentecostals are the charismatics who broke from their base denomination and founded a new denomination or independent church.
  • Charismatics have the same basic configuration of beliefs but remained within their base denomination as a specific strain of theology and practices. As such, charismatics keep a more conservative base of beliefs than Pentecostals.

Where did I get my rule of thumb? (a) a well-known Charismatic Catholic priest serving multiple parishes (b) a sister and brother-in-law who were active in a traditional Azusa-street style Pentecostal denomination. Like most of us, my rule of thumb is a mix of theological knowledge and practical experience. Are you saying that the range of beliefs that the Pentecostal-Charismatic package intends to market to is broader than that of other packages?

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 193
Kendall Sholtess | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 1 2020 12:32 AM

It's just my opinion. Maybe I am wrong about that. I cobbled together my own library from a combination of Pentecostal, Wesleyan and Baptist works, with a smattering of other traditions.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 1 2020 12:57 AM

Kendall Sholtess:
The first wave of charismatics remained in their denominations, the new wave of charismatics which started in the late 1970s are independent. They are all over the board theologically, but most have gone a bit off of the traditional Pentecostal doctrines. I think the doctrinal statements of the Assemblies of God or the Foursquare denomination represent well what traditional Pentecostal doctrine is.

Okay, now I am really confused and obviously don't know this part of  church history. When I think of the charismatics who broke away and founded their own churches I am thinking specifically of the Assemblies of God (circa 1914),  Foursquare (1923), Church of God (1886) etc. When I think of the Charismatics who stayed within their church I think of the mainline Protestants and Catholics of the 1960's. Yes, I know there were a number of one minister churches then think Oral Roberts, Vineyard, or Calvary Chapel ... but I don't think of them as outside the normal raise and fall of denominations.

Your reference to Wesleyan works make me think Holiness movement ... and Wesleyan itself makes me think Pietist which brings me to the Apostolic Lutheran Church - the first church in this whole stream that I am confident I understand.

Can you give me a quick timeline or groups so I can see where I've gone astray?

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 2022
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 1 2020 4:41 AM

I have always understood what is called the so called 3 waves of the Holy Spirit.  The first wave being the Pentecostal wave beginning around 1900.  This wave formed the basis of several Pentecostal groups.  The second wave began around the 1960s and is known as the charismatic movement where Pentecostal doctrines jumped into some mainstream denominational churches, thus creating the Charismatic movement. The third wave began about 1980 with the teachings of men like Peter Wagner and John Wimber and is also known as the modern apostolic movement.  These 3 waves are not the same, but are often referred to as waves in the sense that one wave affects another and those affects can blur the lines between the 3 waves.

Posts 193
Kendall Sholtess | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 1 2020 7:24 AM

That is a good summary. I think that in the base package more weight has been given to the modern apostolic movement.

A large number of the early Pentecostals came from holiness backgrounds. As far as I can tell, traditional Pentecostals still maintain the influence of the Wesleyan holiness stream, although this varies in intensity from group to group, the underlying mode is the same. The Pentecostals took some elements of the holiness stream and revamped them. Pentecostals have often used Adam Clarke's commentary, for instance.

Basically, I wasn't trying to criticize anything. I was just pointing out that maybe, perhaps maybe some Wesleyan works should be added. Maybe Logos should do a poll on which resources Pentecostals or Charismatic would prefer to use.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 1 2020 1:36 PM

Thank you Mark and Kendall - what was missing for me was I'd not heard of the third wave. Something new to track down a bit about.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 245
Graham Owen | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 4 2020 7:35 AM

Kendall Sholtess:
Pentecostal and Charismatic Base packages should be separated and distinguished from each other.

Yes

Posts 13
Angela Meister | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 5 2020 7:07 AM

Some of these both conservative charismatics from across the body of Christ and traditional Pentecostals cringe at and have major concerns about. The most vocal does not mean the most sound. 

Exegesis and grounding in the text as given by God are very important.

Posts 13
Angela Meister | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 5 2020 7:18 AM

Custom base packages would be awesome. If you could pick and choose sets of things, that would be lovely. Certain commentary sets are appealing. I would love to be able to chose from across the spectrum of these different packages and piece together something. I realize you can buy those sets independently, but budget wise it seems a bit deflating to pay for a bunch of things you don't/might not use to get something else at a discount or just enable the full features. 

Most pastors are probably pleased to grab something from their camp, though, and keep it simple.

I see things in different packages that interest me, but the whole packages on most aren't so appealing. I am not in a hurry though.


Posts 13
Angela Meister | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 5 2020 7:21 AM

MJ, you might research New Apostolic Reformation. Lexham has two books that I would like to check out at some point, but the authors have interviews, etc. on the internet.... https://www.logos.com/search?filters=author-fc73853782229299e279cce74e469584_Author&sortBy=Relevance&limit=60&page=1&ownership=all

Posts 255
Gary Osborne | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 5 2020 8:46 AM

Mark:

I have always understood what is called the so called 3 waves of the Holy Spirit.  The first wave being the Pentecostal wave beginning around 1900.  This wave formed the basis of several Pentecostal groups.  The second wave began around the 1960s and is known as the charismatic movement where Pentecostal doctrines jumped into some mainstream denominational churches, thus creating the Charismatic movement. The third wave began about 1980 with the teachings of men like Peter Wagner and John Wimber and is also known as the modern apostolic movement.  These 3 waves are not the same, but are often referred to as waves in the sense that one wave affects another and those affects can blur the lines between the 3 waves.

Well stated, Mark.  That's a perfect description as far as I'm concerned, and I'm a traditional Pentecostal who also wishes Logos would have broken up the classifications.  Putting Pentecostals, Charismatics, and 3rd Wave NARs under the same umbrella is like putting Reformed, Baptists, and Lutherans under the same umbrella.  Can you imagine the screaming that would have gone on if that scenario had ever unfolded in Logos? 

But hey, we are just lowly "Spirit-filled" chandelier swingers, so it's okay to lump all of us together.  Sigh...

Posts 201
MWW | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 5 2020 6:59 PM

With over 500 million "spirit filled" believers in the world, trying to describe them is like the old story of the blind men trying to describe an elephant. 

I do agree that the P&C package is very weak... particularly platinum and diamond packages. I don't think that either Cs or Ps are very happy with those packages. The P content if especially weak. I am a P and I am hoping for a better selection of resources when 9's packages come out.

Posts 193
Kendall Sholtess | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 6 2020 5:15 AM

Well, I am glad that I did observe something that others were wondering about. Hopefully Faithlife will be aware of these major differences and consider doing something about them.

Posts 245
Graham Owen | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 10 2020 12:51 PM

Kendall Sholtess:
Well, I am glad that I did observe something that others were wondering about. Hopefully Faithlife will be aware of these major differences and consider doing something about them.

This has been raised a few times Kendall

Understanding your denominations heritage helps is building a good library Pentecostalism did not just appear from a vacuum as some would have us believe. In fairness a lot of Pentecostals are influenced by some contemporary Charismatics which has an interesting theological impact and creates an interesting tension for a lot of Pentecostal believers. To be fair to Logos mixing the two in many ways reflects the current reality of how Pentecostals and Charismatics are seen even though it is not a true reflection of origins and core theology.

Posts 245
Graham Owen | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 10 2020 12:58 PM

MJ. Smith:
Thank you Mark and Kendall - what was missing for me was I'd not heard of the third wave. Something new to track down a bit about.

It's not in Logos MJ but I suspect that you would find Steven Jack Land's Pentecostal Spirituality enlightening as an analysis of Pentecostal origins.

Posts 52
Scott | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 22 2020 5:29 PM

I disagree with breaking up P&C. We don't need any more factioning and division among us. We need more unity! If our origins and constructs are slightly different, that just means we may have something to learn from each other. Referring to the nuances and inessential beliefs and practices, of course. Obviously the essential, cardinal tenets of the faith are non-negotiaoble. On those essential points P&C are almost always in agreement. We are on the same team. We have the same Spirit. I wonder what the Spirit would say about this? More division? Or unity and understanding?

It is my belief that the future of the movement is a mix of Pentecostal and Charismatic. P&Cs will learn from each other's teachings. Where the old said "us and them"; the young will say "we".
 The future is unity as we move closer to the return of our Lord Jesus! Let's not do anything out of alignment with that Spirit.

With all that said, I agree the P&C packages have been weak. I am all for Custom packages--if possible. But breaking up P&C is not the right move.

Please just simply ask the Holy Spirit if this is the kinda thing He would do.

Blessings!

Posts 1454
Wild Eagle | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 22 2020 5:47 PM

Scott:

I disagree with breaking up P&C. We don't need any more factioning and division among us. We need more unity! If our origins and constructs are slightly different, that just means we may have something to learn from each other. Referring to the nuances and inessential beliefs and practices, of course. Obviously the essential, cardinal tenets of the faith are non-negotiaoble. On those essential points P&C are almost always in agreement. We are on the same team. We have the same Spirit. I wonder what the Spirit would say about this? More division? Or unity and understanding?

It is my belief that the future of the movement is a mix of Pentecostal and Charismatic. P&Cs will learn from each other's teachings. Where the old said "us and them"; the young will say "we".
 The future is unity as we move closer to the return of our Lord Jesus! Let's not do anything out of alignment with that Spirit.

With all that said, I agree the P&C packages have been weak. I am all for Custom packages--if possible. But breaking up P&C is not the right move.

Please just simply ask the Holy Spirit if this is the kinda thing He would do.

Blessings!

👍

"No man is greater than his prayer life. The pastor who is not praying is playing; the people who are not praying are straying." Leonard Ravenhill 

Posts 245
Graham Owen | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 23 2020 6:46 AM

Scott:
I disagree with breaking up P&C.

Speaking as a Pentecostal who owns Pentecostal and Charismatic Diamond I am frustrated that a very larger percentage of the materials do not truly reflect my background. I personally think that the separation would enable a better focus and for me if that means a smaller and cheaper collection then that would free up more funds to invest in useful materials. For me Logos 8 will probably be the last time I purchase P&C.

Scott:
We don't need any more factioning and division among us.

To me this would be an argument for a complete review of collections and the complete removal of denominational collections. Other denominational groups have a better level of separation than we Pentecostals. Charismatic is a pan denominational view so if we are being precise denominational collections should not include Charismatics, they should be a subset within all denominations.

Scott:
P&Cs will learn from each other's teachings.

By the same argument, Logos should include Catholic resources with Reformed, Methodist with Baptist, Anglican with Seventh Day Adventist, Lutheran with Orthodox, etc. Why single out the Pentecostals for a different approach and then suggest we have show a "lack of unity and understanding" when we look for parity in treatment?

I have a broad library based on choice, it includes authors who hold very different views to mine and I appreciate the need to read widely to develop a full understanding. However, there are a lot of Charismatic authors that i simply do not want to read and personally I'd prefer not to have to purchase their resources to support Pentecostal authors that I do want to read.

Posts 10765
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 23 2020 7:14 AM

I'm not a P or a C (this sub-forum). But I'd assume most packages begin with C vs P (Catholic/Protestant), and then pursue a degree of emphasis, since few groups are tremendously fleshed out in Logos. A similar situation occurs between Baptist, and Restoration. Baptist doesn't have any restoration emphasis, so you mix/match here and there, to get discussion.

And I'd presume the Spirit is potentially among all of them.

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

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