2.04 GB of Downloads: Another call for selective downloads please

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This post has 96 Replies | 2 Followers

Posts 1367
JimTowler | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Jun 29 2010 1:26 PM

Well, this 2 GB is a vary large portion of the download limits for most users in this country!!

Another call for selective download controls please.

One messy and really ugly workaround is:

1) Download and print the Release Notes for the Resource Update

2) Identify and HIDE some of the larger and low-priority resources

3) Restart a few times to make sure they are hidden, then begin the download

4) Allow reindex etc to complete

5) Un-hide the larger resources one or two at a time, over as many days as desired, to manage the download sizes and traffic usage.

YUCK!

Please can we have a better way?

Posts 1536
Terry Poperszky | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 29 2010 1:42 PM

Way to think outside of the box Jim!

 

 

 

 

Posts 3163
Dominick Sela | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 29 2010 1:57 PM

I think Bob has posted on here, that Logos managing the different versions of files, and different states of current version that users' systems would be in would be untenable from a support perspective, which has cost and quality considerations.  Given how closely the resources and the versions are tied for some functions, when Logos can no longer count on there not being a mismatch, maintaining any kind of consistent quality becomes quite problematic.

Just relaying this on because it has been discussed often - please don't shoot the messenger Angel

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 29 2010 2:20 PM

JimT:
Please can we have a better way?

Jim, I agree that a better way needs to be available for people with download limits. While your solution isn't the ideal, I think you should put it on the wiki as a temporary work-around. At least it gives users their most important resources before they hit their limits. You may even put a Mr. Yuck face on it, if it suits your humor.

Seattle is not only the "birth place" of grunge. It is also the birth place of Mr. Yuck. PS he is not to be abused, he labels things as poison/hazardous for children.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1367
JimTowler | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 29 2010 2:20 PM

Yes, no shooting.

I've heard this view on why we can't have selective downloads before, but I don't consider that an acceptable "solution", for customers with limited Internet traffic-caps or usage surcharges.

NOT all updates are created equal. It would be an easy matter to put any resource updates into 2 or 3 types:

A) Application updates and critical resource updates to prevent crashes or major fault conditions. If a resource is rebuilt with a critical change to its internal format, and the application would be unstable without this update, its an (A)!

B) Major update to a resource. If you use this resource, you really "need" this update. Maybe a major re-page, re-index or otherwise a "big deal".

C) Minor typos or lesser changes. You may want this, but it many be a low priority for you.

If a user elects to NOT take the (B) or (C) updates, it does NOT create application crashes, support issues or nighmares.

It would be easy for something to be added to the metadata for resources, by build-version, so there was some visual clue somewhere, that a given resource has outstanding (B) or (C) updates that can be downloaded.

I might be happy to have outstanding typos in some resources I hardly or never use, until I'm at a place or time, that the download and reindex is acceptable.

Any time Logos releases an updated resource, they would tag it as (A), (B) or (C) and make a comment in the release notes too.

(After 1.5 hours, I'm at 9% of my 2 GB downloads ... Internet is NOT unlimited size or speed here)

Posts 1367
JimTowler | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 29 2010 2:26 PM

MJ. Smith:
Jim, I agree that a better way needs to be available for people with download limits. While your solution isn't the ideal ...

YES - far from ideal. Others can decide if hiding some of their larger but less-important resources has much merit. It would be easier if the release-notes had file sizes too.

Of the 2 GB, it seems 600 MB of this is the two Greek audio resources (Pronunciation), so I can't hide them anyway. Besides, I often use the Erasmian one. Maybe I'd hide the "Modern" one if I could.

Posts 59
Eric Ruhnow | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 29 2010 6:52 PM

Could we maybe have a "forked" install choice (thinking along the Ubuntu release view: rare hard-core STABLE releases and more frequent "minor" updates).

We already have the Beta and Stable channels. Maybe Logos could add 6 month channel as well, for those who need the underlying stability enhancements to the engine without needing all the "extras" that make updates like this one hard on those with limited connection issues.

 

Just my 2c.

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Posts 1367
JimTowler | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 29 2010 7:02 PM

Interesting idea ...

Actually, I don't think the problem here is the update to the Logos4 application itself. Its only small.

Given that everyone was going to need a full reindex anyway, maybe Logos decided to release some pending resource updates at the same time.

P.S. Of my 2 GB download, I have an estimated 500 MB still to go, after some 6 hours already spent on the download. Indexing still future. NOT a light impact on resources.

Posts 634
Frank Sauer | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 29 2010 7:29 PM

While I don't have download limits, I feel the same frustration... When I look and see how much of this download was images or image related resources, it is extremely frustrating because I really do not use them enough to update, but use them on occasion, so can't hide them because when you unhide them they will update anyway... Gets back to the refusal to allow user control of what is downloaded unless, you call the all or nothing stance user control, which I do not.... I'm still all for the choice system like V3 had... Simple ability to choose by check box what I want installed or updated on my computer. I know the IMHO poor excuse of saving tech support resources that Logos uses, I offer up the solution to opt out and if you are an opt out customer there is a small per use charge or even subscription tech support plan... I'd jump on it in a second for the ability to control what is downloaded/uploaded/installed... I never bothered with tech support with V3, there was no need to and had full control over what resources got updated....

Posts 33
Stephen Coles | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 30 2010 3:10 AM

I'd support a call for more selectivity, as we had in v3.  I've got internet access switched off on my laptop because every time I go to use it it wants to download some update or other.  It's even becoming a pain on my desktop - I get around 6MBps download speed and no cap, but the downloading and re-indexing slows everything down.

I'm now using Logos less because of this situation - it's harder to fire it up for a quick look-up.

I tried the iPhone version for use in church (when I'm not preaching) but Laridian's PocketBible beats it on all counts - quicker starting, easier navigation, quicker lookup, note taking...  Not the same range of resources available but a few translations, a couple of commentaries and dictionaries are sufficient.  Logos seems to be all or nothing (and nothing seems to be the more attractive option).

Logos v4 is certainly more powerful than v3 but I'm not sure I want all that power; sometimes simpler is better.  If I didn't already have a bundle of money invested in it (paid out over several years) I'd be tempted to call it a day and even switch my PC over to Laridian's offering.  I live in hope that somebody at Logos finds a way to build in better usability.

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 30 2010 3:52 AM

I agree there should be more control of downloads but I think it should be related to the size of download permitted ie. a download limit which can be managed within a 20% variation. It would imply Automatically Download Updates = NO and after indexing is complete the next download would be offered, but you would have the ability to refuse it. A possible ramification is that a future Software update would not be offered until the resource download is complete! Classifying resources is too intensive & error prone ie. if you ask someone to classify likely impact it would more likely be put into the Required basket.

Dave
===

Windows & Android

Posts 2372
David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 30 2010 4:19 AM

RE: Jim T and his A, B, C updates

You call support - First Question - Did you update all the 'A' updates - if not please call back after updating

You call support on Resource 'XYZ' - first question - Did you update the 'B' update on that resource - if not please call back after updating

They might also inform you of interactions of other 'B' updates on Resource 'XYZ' [Resource 'XYZ' is up to date but it requires 'ABC' to work correctly]

Or LOGOS could just break up the updates into 100 MB chunks - Laptop done and now to do the Desktop

Posts 2372
David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 30 2010 4:19 AM

RE: Jim T and his A, B, C updates

You call support - First Question - Did you update all the 'A' updates - if not please call back after updating

You call support on Resource 'XYZ' - first question - Did you update the 'B' update on that resource - if not please call back after updating

They might also inform you of interactions of other 'B' updates on Resource 'XYZ' [Resource 'XYZ' is up to date but it requires 'ABC' to work correctly]

Or LOGOS could just break up the updates into 100 MB chunks - Laptop done and now to do the Desktop

Posts 3163
Dominick Sela | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 30 2010 4:46 AM

A more likely scenario:

You call support - First Question - Did you update all the 'A' updates - if not please call back after updating

LIkely reply -> Yes I did (but I did not, I thought I did) - so after 20 minutes of investigation the tech support person asks the person to just do it again anyway and call back, and the whole sequence starts over.

You call support on Resource 'XYZ' - first question - Did you update the 'B' update on that resource - if not please call back after updating

Likely reply -> I don't know how to - my son does the updates and manages the configuration, and he is away. All I know is my system is crashing because something is wrong.

IMHO I think some hard-truth realities are these: (1) the program and data are connected. There are times when it matters what version of resource match with the version of software. So many of the comments here seem to just imply this is an arbitrary decision, but it's not - it's like saying give me half the release Logos, and you worry about supporting me that way.  To compare to LInux is problematic, because Linux is used by people fully capable of maintaining it, they know how to build their own version of the distribution in most cases.  We have Logos users that are really much less experienced in their desktop software.  To give users the ability to uncouple software and required resources, well that is just asking for trouble, and no software developer would willingly do that.  Is there a way to uncouple resources and software? Maybe, but that leads to truth #2: (2) The ideas being proposed here will take a lot of software development time and money to implement.  Are we willing to forego many important functional updates for this kind of investigation, implementation, design of software to manage the revisions so Logos knows what is going on, etc.? If, just for example, sentence diagramming, printing, and PBB support were pushed out another 6 months from wherever they will end up without this work, would that be worth it?  I am willing to bet most customers would say no.

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 30 2010 4:59 AM

Dominick Sela:
A more likely scenario:

Well said. Yes

Posts 232
AndyTheGreek | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 30 2010 5:13 AM

Dominick Sela:
IMHO I think some hard-truth realities are these: (1) the program and data are connected. There are times when it matters what version of resource match with the version of software.

Undoubtedly true. For me the big pain is the initial download after buying a package, where I don't have the option to say "No. I don't want this resource...". Being in about the same position is JimT, I had to go through a huge amount of pain to download a load of resources and then hide the ones I did not want or need. I chose to hide the Image resources because they represented a large proportion of update downloads - I would use some of them if I had them but the 'cost' in time and excess bandwidth charges is too great.

Having gone through this initial download and hiding of unwanted resources, today's update was, for me, just 350 megs. I have already suggested that we be given the ability to 'pre-hide' a resource - which means it's never available and would have to be fully downloaded if I decided that I wanted it after all. This would avoid the scenario where the application and data were out of sync and cut down on bandwidth. I appreciate that it would not work for everyone - it all depends on how many of the resources you own that you actually want/need/use.

That being said, it strikes me as unfortunate that so much data needs to be regularly downloaded. For 'simple' updates such as correcting typos, surely a way can be thought of to 'patch' the existing data? Yes, it's more complex and error prone that totally replacing the data but the downloader could, at the very least, determine if the update was from V1.0c to 1.0d (i.e. just one 'step') and try to patch the data in that instance.

I suspect, however, that the underlying data structures are still changing. If that is so, then Logos needs to work on stabilizing the product. But I've said that before and won't harp on it again...

Posts 1073
Martin Folley | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 30 2010 5:17 AM

If it must be an all or nothing update then at least can we download it externally to L4 (e.g. as a zip). Then apply the downloaded file to L4 (using scan or similar).

Down loading 2Gb x3 (Mac, Desktop, Laptop) is a bit much.

I also have access to better download limits, but not in a place where L4 is installed. Much better to download once, at a place of my choosing, and then use a pen drive to distribute it.

2010 17" MBP with High Sierra, iPad4 with iOS10.

Posts 1367
JimTowler | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 30 2010 5:22 AM

The Logos4 application already, and always, knows if there is an update to itself, and if there is an update to a resource its been asked to open.

It could offer a warning before opening a resource, if its known there is a newer one. Whats so hard about that?

It could write to the log, before opening any "outdated" resource. Whats the problem?

This one really is easy!

No, not 30 lines of code. But not a support nightmare. The application already knows all about what resources have updates, and if it crashes, what ones were active. No human need get involved to automate upgrade or resource-lockout warnings, if a resource is the problem.

Posts 1367
JimTowler | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 30 2010 5:41 AM

I would be happy with:

Important Notice!

This Logos Bible Software update can not proceed until the follow matter is addressed:

The pending Application update no longer supports resource file formats prior to F#2.36, which impacts 17 of your resources, as listed below.

Please select one of the following choices:

  1. Take no action for now
  2. Download all 17 resources, then update the Application
  3. Download selected titles from the list (and block the others), then update the Application
  4. Block the listed resources, then update the Application

(NOTE: Blocked resources will be added to your "Hide" list, and can be updated at any later time. See xxx in Help)

List of Resources needing updates
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

XYZ Bible
John's Commentary on Luke 9
Dictionary of Bible Themes
Names and Their Meanings
Hebrew Audio Bible
NIV (2011 Update)
etc
etc

 

Posts 512
Bobby Terhune | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 30 2010 5:52 AM

Jim,

Bob has answered this several times, the data IS connected to the program. Logos is not going to create a customer service nightmare to do what you are asking. Yikes! your suggestions of a half updated program or worse, without your knowing the inner workings of the program, you want to choose some updates and reject others. Most customers don't know how to even begin to do what you are asking, let alone remember what they did or did not do several months ago.

I suggest we all wait until Logos 4 is finished, and then see where we stand at that time. I wonder how many users Logos has outside the US that this is a problem for? Logos has over a half a million users and 27,000 forum members and only a dozen or so people complain about this issue.

 

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