2.04 GB of Downloads: Another call for selective downloads please

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TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 2 2010 9:21 AM

 

Bob Pritchett:
I imagine that soon after the next major release (which should have almost all the "missing features" of Logos 3)
Ok, So I know this isn't the topic of THIS thread, but holy smokes Bob, you just dropped a happy pill in my hand with that one!   
Bob Pritchett:
I'm not saying this to show-off my superior dataset, or to say you're wrong; you're right for your experience, and it's legitimate, and we are listening. But I want to point out that overall we aren't flying blind, and ultimately this "follow the majority" strategy helps us serve you better, too
Thank you for stating this clearly.  As you know I'm not always happy with every choice made at Logos HQ either (*cough*<i>handouts</i>*cough*)  But I am trying to understand the bigger picture.  To know that you're working to design something that will help those with Data caps is encouraging.  The lack of any time frame mention indicates that it won't be soon (am I reading that right?).
Bob Pritchett:
And of course, a final reminder that you can simply turn "Automatically download updates" off, and wait months between DVD updates.

Wait... did I miss something?  Is there a regular DVD update program in place yet?  We had read earlier at some point ... or... perhaps only suggested that there be a quarterly subscription of DVD updates made available especially for low bandwidth or bandwidth capped areas.  Is there a regular DVD update plan now?  Or is this, as I figure it must be, a reference that a new "media only/update" DVD is made after every gold release?  Either way, having a public declaration that there is a new media/gold DVD available when it happens would be a good move.

Truth Is Still Truth Even if You Don't Believe It

Check the Wiki

Warning: Sarcasm is my love language. I may inadvertently express my love to you.

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 2 2010 3:46 PM

Thomas Black:
Bob Pritchett:
And of course, a final reminder that you can simply turn "Automatically download updates" off, and wait months between DVD updates.

Wait... did I miss something?  Is there a regular DVD update program in place yet? 

I thought that was a throw-away line to quell the argument on selective downloads viz. "a final reminder ...".  The "and wait months" came across as stating the current situation!

Dave
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Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 2 2010 4:37 PM

Bob Pritchett:

........  I love you all! :-) I'm just pointing out that our priorities do -- must -- reflect the bigger groups of users first. Going with the masses isn't my political philosophy, or a good way to run a church, but it's a pretty safe way to run a business.)

Now you may think I'm making the wrong call. And maybe I am -- I can't read every user's mind. (That's why I do spend so much time reading the forums.) But I've also got access to data users don't: sales figures, product returns as percentage of sales, call volume, emails from people who don't use the forums, etc. And I can tell you that those internal metrics are telling us that Logos 4 is making "more users more happy" than anything we've ever done before.

I'm not saying this to show-off my superior dataset, or to say you're wrong; you're right for your experience, and it's legitimate, and we are listening. But I want to point out that overall we aren't flying blind, and ultimately this "follow the majority" strategy helps us serve you better, too: we're adding programmers and staff as fast as we can, and will have more people to address your concerns and build cool features and even address "minority market" concerns, too. (I like to point out that it's our strong English-language product sales that give us the huge base and resources required to build cool tools for tiny-market scholarly concerns. You could insist that we focus only on scholarly tools and resources, to the exclusion of the "majority" of English-language Bible students, but we'd have a lot fewer resources to put on the problem.)

And of course, a final reminder that you can simply turn "Automatically download updates" off, and wait months between DVD updates. This will get you exactly the same behavior as if we immediately ceased pushing 2 gb downloads on users.

Sorry for the length and rambling!

Thank you so very much, Bob, for responding.  (I notice that you have 500 posts at present; and that's amazingly wonderful!  You really ARE in touch with us, the Logos Community - and listening.)  You are appreciated, also.  I could have stayed with Logos 3 (which is pretty great), but I wanted to be part of this tremendous adventure!  And that's what it is.

         Even without the few more items missing from L3 (which I hardly even open anymore), Logos 4 - with all its new features and powers - truly has revolutionised my Bible Study and given me opportunity beyond my imagination.  I just about have a whole seminary library available to me!  *smile*     Peace and Joy in the Lord!

Yours in Christ,

        .....   Mel

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

Posts 1928
Donovan R. Palmer | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 3 2010 12:54 AM

Bob Pritchett:
And of course, a final reminder that you can simply turn "Automatically download updates" off, and wait months between DVD updates. This will get you exactly the same behavior as if we immediately ceased pushing 2 gb downloads on users.

Agreed... and for the most part I'm not that fussed to run the latest version of the software.  HOWEVER, if I want and need to buy a new resource for my ministry or studies which is only 5 to 7 MB (instead of these many GBs of updates), I cannot do so now because this potential purchase is mixed in with all these hundreds of megabytes of updates.  Additionally, the DVD option no longer exists with L4 as it is "download only", so I can't just make a minor addition to my library by a disk in the post.  AND to finish the matter off, the files may very well not be in the 'media only' disk that you can buy. (currently at 4.0c)

Let's all cut to the chase... all this added together essentially means to really use L4 in its fullest, you need a high speed internet connection. Without such, all you are pretty much confined to do is buy the media disks ever six or so months when they come out and update the program and included base resources (which I assume are essentially the Platinum collection).  Anything outside of this, you are stuck and outside the market that Logos is now targeting. This is fine and we just need to say this now up front so everyone knows where they stand. Practically, this means Bible translators, missionaries, humanitarian aid workers, pastors in majority world nations, etc. probably need to be looking at another Bible software programme which still has traditional DVD media options for adding resources and updates.  I might add that people in rural US locations or even in some broadband enabled countries which pay silly money for GB of data may practically be in this same category.

OK, I love Logos Software and have invested a truck load of money into it so I'm not saying this with any malice. These really are the facts though. I hope this is  explained clearly to new customers that are considering buying the product.

Posts 1374
nicky crane | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 3 2010 1:21 AM

I started downloading Tuesday night.  Now, Saturday morning, I still have about 700MB to go after continuous downloading (rate varies from about 40 - 200 kbps, mostly around 40.  The problem is not the time the downloading takes, but the fact that when the server speed is low I can't get other downloads, e.g. email, internet etc.

Could Logos arrange for downloads not to be such download hogs, but to allow other downloads precedence?

I realise we are a minority, but the problem is a big one for us.  At least I can use up to 3 GB a month.

Also, can the download be paused when you click "cancel"?  I read that it could, but once when I did that I lost what I had already downloaded.  The prospect of losing a gig or so, e.g. 4 days worth, has left me choosing to continue to be unable to send email.....

Posts 1367
JimTowler | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 3 2010 3:00 AM

Donovan R. Palmer:
HOWEVER, if I want and need to buy a new resource for my ministry or studies which is only 5 to 7 MB (instead of these many GBs of updates), I cannot do so now because this potential purchase is mixed in with all these hundreds of megabytes of updates.

I agree this is a limitation and concern with the current design and company position:

A US$9.95 book of 3 MB can be sitting in the queue behind 100's of MB, or maybe 2 GB of data, and hours-to-days away!

So, if you are not up to date, no point buying new resources?

Selective downloading would solve this. It seems I'm just wrong wanting this. Oh well ...

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 3 2010 3:32 AM

nicky crane:
Could Logos arrange for downloads not to be such download hogs, but to allow other downloads precedence?

Logos4 uses BITS (Background Intelligent Transfer Service)

Wikipedia:
BITS uses idle bandwidth to transfer data. Normally, BITS transfers data in the background, i.e., BITS will only transfer data whenever there is bandwidth which is not being used by other applications, for example, when applications use 80% of the available bandwidth, BITS will use only the remaining 20%. BITS constantly monitors network traffic for any increase or decrease in network traffic and throttles its own transfers to ensure that other foreground applications (such as a web browser) get the bandwidth they need.

So BITS does not dominate available bandwidth and actively seeks to allow other downloads to proceed. 40 kbps does not provide much bandwidth to play around with!

nicky crane:
Also, can the download be paused when you click "cancel"?  I read that it could, but once when I did that I lost what I had already downloaded.

I'm pretty sure that indexing will start if you Cancel a download. But I would recommend setting Automatically Download Updates = NO to be sure the next download only starts when you are ready.

Dave
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Windows & Android

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Kevin Becker | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 3 2010 4:34 AM

nicky crane:
Also, can the download be paused when you click "cancel"?  I read that it could, but once when I did that I lost what I had already downloaded.  The prospect of losing a gig or so, e.g. 4 days worth, has left me choosing to continue to be unable to send email.....

Every time I've clicked cancel Logos has wanted to restart so it could index what had downloaded. The next time I let it download the total information coming down was less, indicating that I hadn't lost data. I used cancel a number of times when updating my desktop to 4.0d; I did this to make certain it wasn't hogging bandwidth for the other computer on my home network. It worked fine and I haven't noticed any problems.

Posts 18643
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 3 2010 2:06 PM

JimT:

Donovan R. Palmer:
HOWEVER, if I want and need to buy a new resource for my ministry or studies which is only 5 to 7 MB (instead of these many GBs of updates), I cannot do so now because this potential purchase is mixed in with all these hundreds of megabytes of updates.

I agree this is a limitation and concern with the current design and company position:

A US$9.95 book of 3 MB can be sitting in the queue behind 100's of MB, or maybe 2 GB of data, and hours-to-days away!

So, if you are not up to date, no point buying new resources?

Selective downloading would solve this. It seems I'm just wrong wanting this. Oh well ...

Am I mistaken, or can't you just go directly to the product description page and click Download Book Files to get the book you just purchased and bypass any huge downloads that are queued up from Logos? Have to admit I haven't ever tried this when there's a big download waiting which I have deferred downloading for now (with "Automatically Download Updates" = NO). But it seems as though it ought to work.

Posts 1928
Donovan R. Palmer | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 3 2010 2:16 PM

Rosie Perera:
Am I mistaken, or can't you just go directly to the product description page and click Download Book Files to get the book you just purchased and bypass any huge downloads that are queued up from Logos?

My understanding is that these are links to the old L3 format files.  Please correct me if I am mistaken.

Also, we used to be able to download any L3 file off of Logos ftp server, but as far as I know, this facility for L4 does not exist.  Again, corrections would be appreciated if I am confused! :)

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 3 2010 3:31 PM

Rosie Perera:
Am I mistaken, or can't you just go directly to the product description page and click Download Book Files to get the book you just purchased and bypass any huge downloads that are queued up from Logos?

That would be dreamingBig Smile Expect it to be added to (or already included in) the list of downloads available for L4

L3 will allow discrete downloads of your choice but no selection is allowed with L4 except when an expected purchase does not download, when you can "stimulate" it to happen using a few commands.

Dave
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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 3 2010 6:24 PM

Donovan R. Palmer:

Rosie Perera:
Am I mistaken, or can't you just go directly to the product description page and click Download Book Files to get the book you just purchased and bypass any huge downloads that are queued up from Logos?

My understanding is that these are links to the old L3 format files.  Please correct me if I am mistaken.

Yes, but L4 still understands lbxlls (Libronix / L3) format files. In fact there are plenty of lbxlls files in my Logos 4 resources folder.

Donovan R. Palmer:

Also, we used to be able to download any L3 file off of Logos ftp server, but as far as I know, this facility for L4 does not exist.  Again, corrections would be appreciated if I am confused! :) 

The ftp server still exists and we can download these files directly using any browser that has ftp functionality built in (which they all do nowadays). Just go to ftp.logos.com in your browser and poke around. Find a file you want to download, click on it.

Dave Hooton:

Rosie Perera:
Am I mistaken, or can't you just go directly to the product description page and click Download Book Files to get the book you just purchased and bypass any huge downloads that are queued up from Logos?

That would be dreamingBig Smile

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one." Smile

Dave Hooton:

L3 will allow discrete downloads of your choice but no selection is allowed with L4 except when an expected purchase does not download, when you can "stimulate" it to happen using a few commands.

Once you've made the purchase, though, isn't it unlocked on the Logos server side? Then we can pretend it didn't download properly and "stimulate" it using L3 (which we might still have on our machine) to sync licenses. Then in L4 we can run scan to find the lbxlls file in the L3 resource folder and bring it over to the L4 folder. It would be quite a kludge, and maybe it won't work after all.

Posts 62
Ken Hicks | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 3 2010 6:51 PM

Bob Pritchett:
Sorry for the length and rambling!

I appreciate your response Bob. -kwh

Posts 1928
Donovan R. Palmer | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 4 2010 12:31 AM

Rosie Perera:
Yes, but L4 still understands lbxlls (Libronix / L3) format files. In fact there are plenty of lbxlls files in my Logos 4 resources folder.

What is the trade off of using L3 format files? Older tagging schemes? Not as up to date resources?  If there is no functional difference between L3 and L4 files, then this is a good solution. However, if there is, then this is like buying a 2010 Aston Martin and putting an engine from 2001 in it. It doesn't make sense.

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 4 2010 8:51 AM

Rosie Perera:
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one." Smile

You might have added that:-

"I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one"Smile

Rosie Perera:
Once you've made the purchase, though, isn't it unlocked on the Logos server side? Then we can pretend it didn't download properly and "stimulate" it using L3 (which we might still have on our machine) to sync licenses. Then in L4 we can run scan to find the lbxlls file in the L3 resource folder and bring it over to the L4 folder.

I had "scan" in mind as long as there was an lbxlls file.

Dave
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Posts 1374
nicky crane | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 5 2010 3:30 AM

Dave, BITS does not seem to limit  itself to unused bandwidth on my ISP!

 I awoke this morning to find the download had finished!!!!!!  6 days and 6 nights - is this a record?  The indexing etc completed within minutes.

The thing that I found difficult was virtually not being able to use the web or send emails for 6 days (a couple of times we went over the 100kbps mark and then I could use other applications).  I'd sooner the download took a few days longer but didn't block email and web.  I tried to speed up the process by taking my computer to church, where they have faster internet - only that was counterproductive as the internet there happened top be down.

Re waiting to start the download till I'm ready, I'm NEVER ready to be unable to send emails for days on end!

I would appreciate:

1: downloads divided into 500 MB (MAX!) sections, and

2. Opportunity to get major downloads on DVD.

I DID appreciate being able to continue using L4 during the 6 day download period.  I have L3 on my mini laptop that I take when travelling, but L4 has spoiled me, so L3 is definitely second choice.

I recognise that we in other countries are a tiny minority, but I hope the helpful people at Logos, and privileged Logos users in the countries with easier and better internet access, will try to make it easier for us missionaries, who so desperately need to understand our Bibles better.  I'm also aware that my internet access is infinitely better than that available to other missionaries.  Wink

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 5 2010 3:49 AM

nicky crane:
Dave, BITS does not seem to limit  itself to unused bandwidth on my ISP!

Don't shoot the messenger!  It is supposed to be Background Intelligent but limited bandwidth + ISP may not provide enough scope.

nicky crane:
 I awoke this morning to find the download had finished!!!!!!  6 days and 6 nights - is this a record?

Not one I hope to attain - any more than playing a tennis match that lasts over 11 hours! But have you tried the download a little, Cancel, Index, & resume download,  method?

Dave
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Windows & Android

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nicky crane | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 5 2010 4:46 AM

I'm not shooting the messenger, at least not you.  I am saying the description of BITS does not fit my experience!

When I tried cancelling a download, it appeared to do exactly that.  It restarted with the original amount of data, so I seemed to have lost what I had already downloaded.  What I have done successfully is to restart the computer.  It then comes up as downloading a smaller amount of data, with about 30% of that already downloaded and the rest still to go.  As I  mentioned, it indexes very quickly.  I'm relieved to have the download done.  I shall now need to do an up to date backup, as I don't want to have to download that lot again - nor would my ISP let me this month!

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 5 2010 8:22 AM

nicky crane:
What I have done successfully is to restart the computer.

You did not cancel the download, just restart the computer?

Dave
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Windows & Android

Posts 64
Eric Ross | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 8 2010 1:01 PM

Although I don't have caps, I live on the end of a fairly slow connection.  When Logos starts downloading it basically ties up all my bandwidth.  I have to start up the app at night to let it update in order not to interfere with the use of my connection.  It would be very nice if there was some way to throttle and/or schedule the band width usage.  Because I have both a Mac and PC it literally took me a span of a couple of days to download the full 2Gb of updates without killing the utility of my connection.

 I can understand the support nightmares of an incomplete update but we should have some control as to when and how fast the update occurs.

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