Library arrangement

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Bohuslav Wojnar | Forum Activity | Posted: Fri, Jun 26 2009 8:12 AM

I have been thinking many times about what would be better way to keep track of all the resources we have in Logos Library. When it comes to not hundreds but thousands of resources, how can we keep track of what we have. What I really like to do with my paper books is just to go trough the book-shelves and look through it to find something I need. I knew it was there SmileThen I grab a pile of books and have them on my desk for days, than I change them for some other. I am reading 10 books at the same time (you understand what I mean). I like to have them more at hand in my Logos. I want them to stay opened where I left them, if it is not a reference book.

Thinking about the new version of Logos, I am really curious how the matter will be dealt with there. Humans are visual beings. I would really appreciate if the library would be more visual. I like the way you can organize your music in iTunes or Windows Media Player (please don't start discuss here which of those two is better). Can we have that flexibility in organizing our library? I know we have collections. But what about tagging, stars 1 through 5 for the best commentaries, books etc. I am not able to say how it should be, I just know it would be great to have those tools we use in organizing the pictures and music also available in Logos.

What you think about that? Logos, do you plan something like that in version 4?

 

Bohuslav

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 26 2009 8:36 AM

Bohuslav Wojnar:
I have been thinking many times about what would be better way to keep track of all the resources we have in Logos Library. When it comes to not hundreds but thousands of resources, how can we keep track of what we have. What I really like to do with my paper books is just to go trough the book-shelves and look through it to find something I need. I knew it was there Smile

You obviously need some schema by which to arrange your print books.  It needn't be Dewey Decimal or Library of Congress, but you need some arrangement other than simply throwing them on a shelf.  I thought Logos was supposed to categorize things, but it seems things are something of a mish-mash.  I have found resources that I thought would come up by entering a particular word or two in the "Find" box of "My Library" (Again, I don't know about your library.) only to learn that it didn't work.  It was only after looking in an alternate manner that I was able to find it.  Not good, not good at all.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 26 2009 8:58 AM

George Somsel:

Bohuslav Wojnar:
I have been thinking many times about what would be better way to keep track of all the resources we have in Logos Library. When it comes to not hundreds but thousands of resources, how can we keep track of what we have. What I really like to do with my paper books is just to go trough the book-shelves and look through it to find something I need. I knew it was there Smile

You obviously need some schema by which to arrange your print books.  It needn't be Dewey Decimal or Library of Congress, but you need some arrangement other than simply throwing them on a shelf.  I thought Logos was supposed to categorize things, but it seems things are something of a mish-mash.  I have found resources that I thought would come up by entering a particular word or two in the "Find" box of "My Library" (Again, I don't know about your library.) only to learn that it didn't work.  It was only after looking in an alternate manner that I was able to find it.  Not good, not good at all.

This has been one of my pet peeves.  Mostly, the clunky search within "my library."  almost useless, unless you type things JUST right, and the formula is not the same for all the books. I hear that will change with version 4.  Hope so!  They are moving toward that with their improved online searching, and their move to use Google technology.

I have found Morris Proctor's training and manuals helpful in thinking through the ways you can "collect" books, and also do PRA's (parallel resource associations).  Camp II dealt with this.  You can order videos of his training, too.  My Key linking for English data type is also connected to 8 or 9 different type resources (dictionary, map, etc).  The first resource of each type is not necessarily the best resource (for instance, Eastons, or "great doctrines of the Bible", but they are indexed thoroughly so they almost always have an entry on the topic.  THEN, I can have PRA's set up and use my right/left arrow keys to toggle through my other resources grouped similarly.

Bohuslav, I have also suggested to them the ability to make Logos more visual.  I don't know if that will happen, as they haven't seemed (up till now) very focused on aesthetics or visual enhancements.  Maybe that will change as more of us visual people make our voice known.  I would love have an option to see the cover icon for each resource I am in, and flip through them visually, too.  Of course, you CAN run a bibiliography with cover thumbnail, and identification paragraph.  I have for my 1500+ resources.  Too much to print off, so I saved it to a pdf file, and i am working through that list to learn about my library and to methodically put those items into various collections (science, theology, NT studies, non-versified commentaries, etc).

What i would like to see is an easier way to put your books into collections and associations.  A one window option, which shows your resouce, and then give one immediate options for collections, etc.  And ratings, too.  Actually, do you know you can order your favorites, like commentaries or bibles, by which will appear first in an association list?  And in Passage Guide, (which I am using less and less) the ones you use most (up to 5) will appear at the top of your commentaries list, although I don't think you can manually set THAT feature.  It just happens.

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 26 2009 9:17 AM

Daniel DeVilder:
have found Morris Proctor's training and manuals helpful in thinking through the ways you can "collect" books, and also do PRA's (parallel resource associations).  Camp II dealt with this.  You can order videos of his training, too.  My Key linking for English data type is also connected to 8 or 9 different type resources (dictionary, map, etc).  The first resource of each type is not necessarily the best resource (for instance, Eastons, or "great doctrines of the Bible", but they are indexed thoroughly so they almost always have an entry on the topic.  THEN, I can have PRA's set up and use my right/left arrow keys to toggle through my other resources grouped similarly.

Please NO!  I am not a visually oriented person in some respects ("International Symbols" drive me nuts).  As Eliza Doolittle sang in "My Fair Lady" "Words, words, words …" though she didn't want words but action.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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Donovan R. Palmer | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 26 2009 9:40 AM

Bohuslav Wojnar:
Thinking about the new version of Logos, I am really curious how the matter will be dealt with there. Humans are visual beings. I would really appreciate if the library would be more visual. I like the way you can organize your music in iTunes or Windows Media Player (please don't start discuss here which of those two is better). Can we have that flexibility in organizing our library? I know we have collections. But what about tagging, stars 1 through 5 for the best commentaries, books etc. I am not able to say how it should be, I just know it would be great to have those tools we use in organizing the pictures and music also available in Logos.

I suggested last year on the forums that perhaps there was more that could be done to make the organisation of our libraries more visual, using examples such as Delicious Library, iTunes, etc. and got blasted by a few of my Logos brothers for raising such an idea. :-P I still maintain that this should be considered, while keeping text only options available for those that do not wish to have this type of GUI. I think virtual bookshelves with varying sizes of thumbnails would make for an interesting ADDITIONAL way to manage books. Notice the emphasis on ADDITIONAL because text only options could run in parallel for those like this way of working.

I also think that enhancements to collections, primarily through tagging could be considered.  A ranking system would also be nice. It would be nice if the GUI would interface with the Logos store, much the same way that the iTunes player seamlessly interfaces with their store.

Regardless, the idea of having thousands of resources on your computer in the future does beg to answer the question as to whether the interface can be improved or not.

 

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 26 2009 10:42 AM

Donovan R. Palmer:
Regardless, the idea of having thousands of resources on your computer in the future does beg to answer the question as to whether the interface can be improved or not.

 

exactly

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

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Bohuslav Wojnar | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 26 2009 12:10 PM

Donovan R. Palmer:

I also think that enhancements to collections, primarily through tagging could be considered.  A ranking system would also be nice. It would be nice if the GUI would interface with the Logos store, much the same way that the iTunes player seamlessly interfaces with their store.

Regardless, the idea of having thousands of resources on your computer in the future does beg to answer the question as to whether the interface can be improved or not.

Yes, I think you should see the resource, have an option of seeing the cover in the corner (George would have an elegant way to switch it off for ever) and with the right click I should be able to put rating, tags, chose collection etc., just like you do with your music or pictures (I know I oversimplify it, I just hope Logos will get an idea). With your rating you see than your commentaries and other resources in the Passage Guide (I use it Daniel very often, by the way).

Well, of course, all of that should be possible to switch off. My son also uses regular folders for choosing the music. Also for pictures. But my 50 year old memory needs some stimulus. I know George, it might be my European mind. We use pictures all the time. When you come to America, you notice words words everyway. "WALK" "MIND YOUR STEP" etc. Smile

Well, it is just a suggestion. Let Logos decides what is the best.

Bohuslav

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 26 2009 12:42 PM

Bohuslav Wojnar:
Yes, I think you should see the resource, have an option of seeing the cover in the corner (George would have an elegant way to switch it off for ever) and with the right click I should be able to put rating, tags, chose collection etc., just like you do with your music or pictures (I know I oversimplify it, I just hope Logos will get an idea). With your rating you see than your commentaries and other resources in the Passage Guide (I use it Daniel very often, by the way).

 

Good summation.  About the passage guide: i have been a regular and frequent user, but after training I am seeing ways to customize the tool bar, workspaces, and how I set up Parallel Associations, in conjunction with Key Linking, that the Passage guide, for general use, is not as convenient.  I am certainly not dispensing of it forever.

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

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Bohuslav Wojnar | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 26 2009 12:58 PM

Daniel DeVilder:
Good summation.  About the passage guide: i have been a regular and frequent user, but after training I am seeing ways to customize the tool bar, workspaces, and how I set up Parallel Associations, in conjunction with Key Linking, that the Passage guide, for general use, is not as convenient.  I am certainly not dispensing of it forever.

I use Passage Guide mainly to get a list of commentaries having the reference. Although I did not create a parallel association for commentaries (I have it only for Bibles) it does not work properly to switch between them with the parallel association icon. It never shows the proper list of commentaries, or all of them. So the Passage Guide is just doing an excellent job to list all of them and easy way to go through them in one window.

Bohuslav

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 26 2009 12:58 PM

Bohuslav Wojnar:

Well, of course, all of that should be possible to switch off. My son also uses regular folders for choosing the music. Also for pictures. But my 50 year old memory needs some stimulus. I know George, it might be my European mind. We use pictures all the time. When you come to America, you notice words words everyway. "WALK" "MIND YOUR STEP" etc. Smile

What can I say?  Until recently in the US they actually taught students to read.  Big Smile

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 26 2009 9:11 PM

Bohuslav Wojnar:
I use Passage Guide mainly to get a list of commentaries having the reference. Although I did not create a parallel association for commentaries (I have it only for Bibles) it does not work properly to switch between them with the parallel association icon. It never shows the proper list of commentaries, or all of them. So the Passage Guide is just doing an excellent job to list all of them and easy way to go through them in one window.

 

A couple things:

1.  have you done collections yet?  If you have, did you know that you can have them appear on your Passage guide?  I have them all "minimized," but let's say I am preaching in Genesis, and I want to see what my young and old earth books have to say on a passage, besides the commentaries.  I just click on my "science" collection, and it searches for all the references to Gen 1:1, for example.  You can have many collections (and books CAN appear in multiple collections.  That will be a place to start.  (also, you might notice books that are like commentaries (Training of the Twelve, for example) but they are not indexed by "bible" or by verse.  They are called "non-versified" commentaries.  You can put them all in one collection called "N.V.C" and search them. 

2. Parallel associations: first, yes, I did one for my Bibles as I got sick and tired of scrolling through "Cairo" fragments, etc.  My method was to group all my English translations, the reverse interlinear, and a straight Nestle Aland one together, in the order I might look at them.  That was very helpful.  Now I am looking at doing them for my commentaries.  For instance you could have a "technical/language" PRA (for ICC, Hermenaia, NIGTC etc) a "mid-level" set (like Pillar, Baker, etc and then a "practical" PRA (Life application, Preachers Commentary, etc).   Here's the thing: you don't have to separate your sets into book PRA's (1 cor PRA, Romans PRA, etc).  I didn't know this.  I would see all the WBC commentaries in the default PRA, when I clicked on the Parallel Associaion icon, and think: man, this needs weeded out.  It doesn't.  If you have grouped your sets and individual books according to type (technical/practical/mid-level etc), then if you use your right and left arrow to switch commentaries, Logos will automatically skip over the books that are non-relevant to your passage.  So, if I am in Romans, it will skip over all my WBC books that are not Romans and move to the next commentary that IS in Romans. 

3.  Reading 10 books at one time.  I am sure you are familiar with the 9 bookmarks we have.  Beyond that, I havne't tried this yet, but here are some options: You could have a workspace that is for "reading" or even more specific: "leadership reading" and open up however many resources you plan to read.  Save that workspace each time you are done, and I think it iwll open up the next time whereever each resource left off.  Ahh, I will skip the other options.  I DO wish we had more book marks.

 

The thing I don't like about passage guide is having to have that open all the time and flipping to it, if I have multiple windows open.  And many of the commentaries I don't use regularly.  With PRA's, I think of each PRA as a stack of books on my desk that I will thumb through, only this stack is electronic.  But I have weeded out the ones I do not want.  I open the first commentary, say, Baker, read what it has to say on John, take notes and when I am done, right arrow to the next resource, College Press NIV commentary.  I realize that one sucks and so i arrow right and come to New American Commentary, etc.  I have already weeded out all the light commentaries, the study bible commentaries (unless I include them), etc.  I am wondering if I can make a tool bar that has different colored books, with each book opening up a new PRA (technical, homiletic, Bible Dictionary, etc.)

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 26 2009 9:11 PM

George Somsel:
What can I say?  Until recently in the US they actually taught students to read.  Big Smile

 

What can I say, you're KILLIN' me!!!  :)

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Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 26 2009 10:13 PM

It's rare that you can make everyone happy, but after reading this list of ideas for library searching, visual and textual navigation, and collection management, I think I can say that the next version of Logos will -- for this area at least -- make you all very, very happy. :-)

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Bohuslav Wojnar | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 26 2009 10:27 PM

Bob Pritchett:

It's rare that you can make everyone happy, but after reading this list of ideas for library searching, visual and textual navigation, and collection management, I think I can say that the next version of Logos will -- for this area at least -- make you all very, very happy. :-)

Thank you Bob for your answer. It makes me really anxious to see it.

Bohuslav

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Bohuslav Wojnar | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 26 2009 10:59 PM

Daniel DeVilder:

A couple things:

1.  have you done collections yet? 

Thank you Daniel for all your advice. What shell I say?  "All these I have kept from my youth..."Smile I use collections, I use bookmarks, I use all (most of) the little tricks. But it looks many of that feel to go a little bit around to get it to do the job. Like bookmarks. I use them, but they are not exactly what you need to keep a few books "opened". I like your idea of creating the Reading workspace. That would be good if I can choose it to be saved at the end of a session and at the same time other workspaces to keep their saved manually shape.

But I think Bob answered it very well, although misteriously. We will see in the new version. Thanks Daniel again for all your ideas. I appreciate it very much.

Bohuslav

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 26 2009 11:15 PM

Bohuslav Wojnar:

Thank you Daniel for all your advice. What shell I say?  "All these I have kept from my youth..."Smile I use collections, I use bookmarks, I use all (most of) the little tricks. But it looks many of that feel to go a little bit around to get it to do the job. Like bookmarks. I use them, but they are not exactly what you need to keep a few books "opened". I like your idea of creating the Reading workspace. That would be good if I can choose it to be saved at the end of a session and at the same time other workspaces to keep their saved manually shape.

But I think Bob answered it very well, although misteriously. We will see in the new version. Thanks Daniel again for all your ideas. I appreciate it very much.

 

no problem, but most of my ideas are hijacked.  Stick out tongue  I will take credit for the reading workspace, though.  But I haven't even tried that one myself, yet!

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 26 2009 11:17 PM

Bob Pritchett:

It's rare that you can make everyone happy, but after reading this list of ideas for library searching, visual and textual navigation, and collection management, I think I can say that the next version of Logos will -- for this area at least -- make you all very, very happy. :-)

. . . can we camp out on the sidewalk in Bellingham, waiting for it's release?  If we do, will you all serve us some good coffee?

 

Anyhow, THANKS!

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

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Donovan R. Palmer | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 27 2009 12:35 AM

Bob Pritchett:
It's rare that you can make everyone happy, but after reading this list of ideas for library searching, visual and textual navigation, and collection management, I think I can say that the next version of Logos will -- for this area at least -- make you all very, very happy. :-)

Yes I hope this makes its way into the Mac version as well! Cool

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 27 2009 2:47 AM

Daniel DeVilder:

… I am wondering if I can make a tool bar that has different colored books, with each book opening up a new PRA (technical, homiletic, Bible Dictionary, etc.)

Daniel

To accomplish this, you first need a commentary at the top of each PRA that covers the entire Bible. Then create a custom toolbar icon to open that book. Label it according to the PRA (technical, homiletic, Bible Dictionary, etc.). When you click the icon, the book opens to the current text. Then you can use the arrow keys to navigate through the PRA.

Jack

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Bohuslav Wojnar | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 27 2009 3:25 AM

JackCaviness:

To accomplish this, you first need a commentary at the top of each PRA that covers the entire Bible. Then create a custom toolbar icon to open that book. Label it according to the PRA (technical, homiletic, Bible Dictionary, etc.). When you click the icon, the book opens to the current text. Then you can use the arrow keys to navigate through the PRA.

Jack

Sounds like a good advice. After I come back from Prague I should try it.

Bohuslav

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