Logos need to do something about Logos

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This post has 62 Replies | 4 Followers

Posts 160
David Medina | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 3 2020 8:43 AM

We do, I may be wrong, (probably I am) but I fail to see the true use of it except that looks pretty. 

I am no expert on Logos but I am sure there are things that require lots of overhead to run that is raging the app and barely anyone uses it that could be trim. Or better yet, revise the code to make it faster and you may not have to cut off anything, even if it just one person using it. 

I do appreciate them trying to come up with new and glam ways to do things, even if they are just remotely useful to someone, but it should not be by tasking an inefficient app even further. 

Posts 2588
Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 3 2020 8:49 AM

David Medina:

To purchase and install an SSD on my iMac would cost me close to $700.

Perhaps not. Check this out.

Pre 2015 I would not have gone the SSD route because of the high rate of failure.

Now, I cannot imagine not running off a good SSD.

Posts 160
David Medina | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 3 2020 9:00 AM

Thanks, but while I worked as a computer tech for many years I am not inclined to do it myself. I ake my money working with my computer and if by any chance I happen to break the screen or something else trying to install an SSD I would be out of work. I appreciate the suggestion but honestly I cannot risk it.cannot 

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 3 2020 9:28 AM

David Medina:
I am not either a greek or hewrew student. I just do basic word studies for which I find the Word Study Guide pretty much useless.

Greek has a wider range of verbal expression than English so my favorite Logos/Verbum feature is Visual Filter highlighting so can "see" range of Greek Verbal expression in resources having Logos Greek Morphology tagging, Logos Wiki has => Examples of visual filters

Thankful for Logos Greek Morphology visual filters being usable in Logos 8 Basic & Verbum 8 Basic. Thankful for Faithlife enabling free sharing of user created visual filter documents. Caveat: opening a resource with Visual Filter highlighting may take a bit longer for hundreds of search results to be combined for simultaneous display (so learned years ago to click & wait). Thankful for a friend helping me with a 2019 model 27" iMac 5K earlier this year => Computer specs used @ Logos for large libraries (Logos, Verbum, and all applications are noticeably more responsive on newer hardware so agree with Faithlife recommendation for NVMe SSD)

Chapter and Verse numbers were added ~500 years ago (for use with Concordances). Unfortunately, number placement has alignment issues with original language thought boundaries: e.g. Philippians 4:6 is in the middle of a Greek sentence. Thankful for Logos/Verbum having the option to hide chapter and verse numbers.

Personally learning Hebrew so Thankful for Mobile Ed Course => Mobile Ed: HB101 Introduction to Biblical Hebrew (10 hour course)

David Medina:
Of course, I know that an SSD will help but that is pricesely my point. I should not have to depend from an SSD to have an app work decently. If that is a requirenment it should be plaster all over te website so we do not waste money buying an app that does not work properly in a normal compuer. 

An option for macOS is using an external SSD as the startup disk. SSD should noticeably improve responsiveness for your primary demanding programs (along with Logos/Verbum). Reading 800 MB file from HD takes 10+ seconds while external Sata III SSD takes 2+ seconds and newer NVMe SSD read is less than a second. Note: external SSD can also be used during migration to a newer Mac model (with subsequent reformat to become Time Machine backup device).

New 'normal' is SSD. New MacBook Air, MacBook Pro, iMac Pro, Mac Pro, and Mac Mini models all have SSD. New iMac models have storage options of 5400-rpm HD, Fusion Drive (using small SSD with large HD), and SSD => https://www.apple.com/mac/compare/

Logos Help Center (LHC) includes Desktop articles => Recommended Hardware and Software and => Optimizing Logos Performance

Years ago replaced HD inside 27" iMac with SSD using an I Fix It guide => https://www.ifixit.com/Device/iMac_Intel Older iMac models have magnets holding glass to frame so glass can be pulled out using suction cup(s). For Retina iMac Display (with thinner edges), Apple manufacturing changed to double-sided thin foam tape (so have not tried opening a 5K iMac since tape would need careful replacement).

An unsupported configuration is using an external SSD (with different startup disk). Logos wiki has => Install in different folder or drive Caveat: newer macOS on 2014 model 27" iMac 5k confirmed USB connection to external SSD periodically disappears (had relocated Resources folder to external SSD due to internal SSD lacking storage capacity). Newer 2019 model 27" iMac 5k running macOS 10.15 sometimes has USB disconnect for a Windows external keyboard with LED backlighting. 

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 160
David Medina | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 3 2020 9:49 AM

I will not risk doing the update myself. If it breaks I cannot longer make a living. 

Knowing original laguages could be great but everything you said about it went over my head. At this moment I have no time to learn original languages. 

Do you or anyone know how do you delete visual filters?

Thanks,

Posts 2588
Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 3 2020 10:10 AM

David Medina:

Thanks, but while I worked as a computer tech for many years I am not inclined to do it myself.



I understand. I hope you find an alternative. I stand with you that the Logos code could be slimmed down, but practically SSD has been a solution for the bottleneck.

Posts 160
David Medina | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 3 2020 11:56 AM

Thanks.

Posts 809
David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 3 2020 12:24 PM

I think the SSD is a general quality of life improvement for computers. Whenever I go back, HDD seems too slow. So I don't think of it as passing the bucket. Expect it to be more noticeable as more programs are designed with the SSD in mind.

WIN 10 i7 9750H, RTX 2060, 16GB RAM | iPad Air 3

Posts 2588
Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 3 2020 12:53 PM

David Wanat:

... as more programs are designed with the SSD in mind.

SSD and memory. Most machines have underutilized RAM.

I'm no expert, but if Logos had a setting like Large Memory Caching (for instance, the entire index could be cached in memory) slowdowns can be minimized.


Posts 160
David Medina | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 3 2020 1:25 PM

I am sorry but programs are not designed for SSD or HDD. It does not work like that. 

Logos has some wonderful tools which is the reason I bought it. I Love the Notes  in Logos, best in class, I think. I also love the reports as it helps make sense of so many reources.

When designing software developers usually have available the latest and greatest so for them it runs great. But most users cannot afford upgrades. So they need to take into consideration what system users may be running  the program and not just assume that everyone has the blessing of the latest and greatest. Now, I do not know if Logos does or does no do that. I do not know. But telling me to upgrade solve my problem tells me that they may not.  

The reason many of you feel Logos is adequate may be that you have been using it for a long time you have gotten used to it and just learned to live with it.  But if you were to compare Logos to Accordance you will see how inefficcient and slow Logos really is. 

The fact is that whenever Accordance work on their upgrades they make sure that whatever they add does not hurt the user experience and speed. Logos want to be so feature rich that overrides any concern for speed forcing people to invest into a new computer every time a new upgrade comes out if they want to experience a satisfactory user experience. I call that passing the bucket.

Get a new computer you say... I wish it was that easy and, when my computers were brand new Logos didn't run much better either. The truth is that Logos has always been slowest solution out there. So I refuse having to spend more money, money that I do not have, to fix something Logos should be fixing. 

And I expect someone to tell me to use Accordance and stop complaining about Logos. If it just were that easy! I have over $1000 invested in Logos over the years and do like many of the tools that Logs have. I just wants them to finally fix this. But if they are willing to refund me what I have invested in Logos I will gladly use Accordance. :)

Posts 1689
Ken McGuire | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 3 2020 1:32 PM

When I went off to college in 1988, I learned about what microcomputers were doing from a Computer Science major friend. I was utter confused why there were so many different ways to edit text. There were text editors - both some really old line based ones and full screen ones. There were Word Processors. And there were Desktop Publishing programs. But in using them, I learned how while they have similar jobs, there are trade offs in efficiency with the various solutions. You don't want to write programs using a Word Processor, since the Word Processor will be inserting format codes everywhere. And while you could do amazing things with a Desktop Publisher, it was slow on real hardware. And you generally would not want to create a tri-fold brochure with edlin... I still see the difference, but on the other hand, used a work computer in the late 90's that used WordPerfect as the text editor for emails, and have seen Word Processors add so many Desktop Publishing features that I have no need whatsoever to use a separate Desktop Publisher for things.

And so there are various software "solutions" to using a computer to help with Bible Study. Logos is designed to work with a library of multiple resources, and has powerful tools to search your library and make connections. Some of these resources are based on the biblical text and the traditional exegetical process - but by no means all, or even most of them. So, while Logos certainly can pull up the textual base of many English Bibles, there are tools that are more specialized in this and so do it MUCH faster.

Your machine is fairly hefty - but its weakness is where Logos needs the most, namely, jumping around a lot on your external storage device. Moore's Law may no longer be that accurate, but at least with SSD's it seems to be close for now. Adding a SSD to my low-end laptop has made Logos perform faster for me than it ever has since Logos 4 came out, with its change in design to whole library searching. I suspect that between SSD's becoming more mainstream on consumer devices as well as Logos having more options to have separate computer and cloud resources that performance will become less of an issue.

Of course, the future is not here. And I certainly understand not wanting to risk a device you depend upon for your livelihood on an upgrade you do yourself. Do try as much of the advice on speeding up performance as you can. But it is certainly possible that Logos may not be the best tool for you with your current tech. But the community of users here is diverse enough that much of what you describe as fluff may be some of the most important features for others. I am so far willing to bet that most of what slows down Logos will become less of an issue on future computers. I certainly have seen Faithlife do massive work to make their program more efficient over the last dozen years...

The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann

L8 Anglican, Lutheran and Orthodox Silver, Reformed Basic, Academic Essentials

L7 Lutheran Gold, Anglican Bronze

Posts 11190
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 3 2020 1:43 PM

David Medina:
The reason many of you feel Logos is adequate may be that you have been using it for a long time you have gotten used to it and just learned to live with it.  But if you were to compare Logos to Accordance you will see how inefficcient and slow Logos really is.

Not really.

On another thread just today, a morph search for verbal forms took .63 seconds to find more than 25,000 instances (yes, an SSD). Of course, getting the software to just show the first few results took a few excruciating minutes ... I hesitated to think about a page-worth. I switched over to BW but they didn't have the resource. Accordance is really the only choice, when you've got real work to do.

I notice it only took 2 forum pages to move from Logos programming inefficiencies to 'it's the user's fault'. Not too shabby, huh? Logosians are good.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 3 2020 2:48 PM

David Medina:
But if you were to compare Logos to Accordance you will see how inefficcient and slow Logos really is.

I know nothing about the internal development cycle of Accordance. I do know that Logos and Accordance started in very different cultures - PC vs. Apple ... but Apple lost my interest with the first Mac for which they promised and never delivered a true compiler rather than interpreter. When I started with Logos both Logos and Accordance were single platform applications so the choice between them was simple. Rather the choice was between Logos and several other vendors (some now defunct) -- I chose Logos because of its support of a broader canon (Anyone remember how long the delay was between the promise and the delivery of the Catholic version?). For my uses efficiency and speed are not the highest priority - resources and linkage are. The result is that I have considerably more invested than you and that upon my death or senility some Dominican professor or seminarian will have a very adequate library. Even in my supporting software - timelines, concept mapping, argument mapping, ... - I make trade off; in these it is often cost very speed and features. So yes, I get impatient waiting for drop-downs to load, annoyed and short-tempered at sloppy production control on resources and their tagging.... but I also know that I made my bed so I have to lie in it, so to speak. And I know that where it matters most to me, Faithlife listens even when they don't provide the answer I want. So continue to push for the performance that is important to you, encourage others to join you ... but be realistic about the investment of resources you are asking FL to make.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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John Fidel | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 3 2020 3:40 PM

David Medina:

I am sorry but programs are not designed for SSD or HDD. It does not work like that. 

Hi David,

 Logos on HDD is painfully slow and I do not think that FL intends to change that since most new computers have SSD, however, I could be wrong. That said, I do not know how to advise you. I wish I had some fix for you, but the problem is truly that Logos does not run well on computers with HDD. 

I understand the investment we all have in our libraries and changing software is often not a viable option. I doubt you can get a refund... you may be able to sell it as there is a Facebook page out there somewhere... and Accordance has some discounts for products you have a license for in another program to assist in transitioning to their product. 

Sorry if you feel that your concerns have not been constructively addressed.

Please continue to make your concerns known, perhaps someone from FL can address them. I too would like Logos to fix this as speed continues to be probably the number one complaint from customers.

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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 3 2020 4:22 PM

David Medina:
I am sorry but programs are not designed for SSD or HDD. It does not work like that.

While you're right that a program isn't designed for a type of storage device, it's also important not to overlook that programs which read and write large amounts of data are heavily dependent on (and can be I/O bound by) the speed of the storage device.

HDs have much worse (~100x) access times, mostly due to seek time and rotational latency. SDDs tend to provide (~4x) higher transfer speed, mostly due to better read/write performance and interface bandwidth.

The Logos recommended system requirements point out this very thing (and later mention "lightning fast" SSD as a better speed choice over slower HD):

However, when constantly reading and writing large amounts of data, like a large Logos library, hard drive speed can become a major bottleneck in some systems.

Is Logos slow? It certainly can be. Does it run on an HD? Yes, but it will clearly perform better on an SSD. (I understand, however, that upgrading is not an option.)

David Medina:
Logos want to be so feature rich that overrides any concern for speed

To be fair, I don't believe that the developers ever deliberately sacrifice performance for features.

David Medina:
I just wants them to finally fix this.

We live in an imperfect world. If FL ever delivered a major new release that only offered better performance but no new features, some percentage of the customers will complain that they're unnecessarily paying for something that shouldn't have cost them anything.

I think that the developers do the best they can with the time they're given to try to deliver as many of the goals they hope to achieve (which include a mix of improved performance and functionality).

While it's unfortunately easy for us to be backseat developers, I don't think we could do better than them, and we probably shouldn't judge whether they're spending too much time on one thing at the expense of another. However, If L8 or L7 or L9 doesn't work the way we want(ed) it to, there's always the 30-day refund policy.

My top three Logos 9 Wishlist items: Carta, Dark mode, and Hebrew audio bible, please.

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 3 2020 4:31 PM

David Medina:
I will not risk doing the update myself. If it breaks I cannot longer make a living. 

Understand risk plus remember a professional lesson learned years ago to have workable fall back option when practical for going forward.

For external SSD, need two items: an internal SSD and USB adapter (cable OR enclosure)

$ 92.99 for 1 TB SSD => https://www.amazon.com/Silicon-Power-Performance-Internal-SP001TBSS3A55S25/dp/B07B4G19X3 (if HD is larger than the 1 TB standard HD, then recommend getting a larger SSD: e.g. $ 199.99 for 2 TB, $ 479.99 for 4 TB)

Connect SSD to USB adapter

Connect USB to iMac

Install macOS to external SSD, which includes using Apple's Migration Assistant to copy your Applications and Files.

When powering up iMac, press and hold option key then press power button to turn on iMac. Keep holding option key down until Mac shows bootable choices: Release option key then click desired choice for startup: internal HD OR external SSD

If external SSD does not work, can restart iMac and switch back to internal HD (provided something bad has not happened to internal HD). Thankfully have installed macOS to external disks many times, which was later followed by booting up internal disk.

David Medina:
Do you or anyone know how do you delete visual filters?

In Logos/Verbum application, can use Docs to choose Visual Filters. Right Click on a Visual Filter has Delete choice:

Documents web site has Actions: Publish/Withdraw/Duplicate/Delete Visual Filters (and other documents) => https://documents.logos.com/

David Medina:
The reason many of you feel Logos is adequate may be that you have been using it for a long time you have gotten used to it and just learned to live with it.  But if you were to compare Logos to Accordance you will see how inefficcient and slow Logos really is.

Years ago Accordance could find a Greek word, but could not combine search results of Greek Morphology aspects to enable "seeing" nuanced range of verbal expression (how verbs were used that is missing from range of verbal word meaning). For example, Philippians 4:4 translations often have "Rejoice" for a Greek imperative (command) verb. Another translation is: "Be Rejoicing in The Lord always" (to express present tense continual action with command to Be Rejoicing while remembering Paul was in prison at the time so Rejoicing choice does not depend on circumstances). My forum nickname "Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)" is my variation of Philippians 4:4 and reminder to keep Rejoicing in The Lord always Big Smile Thankful for Logos Greek Morphology visual filters created using Logos 4 on Mac & Windows ~2011 being usable today (with speed improvement).

Apologies for not looking at Accordance nor their user forum for years (so currently do not know their search capabilities). My older opinion of user forums was Logos being more active and responsive. Thankful for many friendly forum & Faithlife discussions: have learned a lot plus have a lot to learn Big Smile

Keep Smiling Smile

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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 3 2020 4:32 PM

MJ. Smith:
And I know that where it matters most to me, Faithlife listens even when they don't provide the answer I want.

Smile

Thanks for pointing that out, MJ!

My top three Logos 9 Wishlist items: Carta, Dark mode, and Hebrew audio bible, please.

Posts 809
David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 3 2020 4:52 PM

David Medina:

I am sorry but programs are not designed for SSD or HDD. It does not work like that. 

As programs continue to process more and more data, the faster methods of storage will be assumed, and recommended, eventually reaching the point where somebody will be surprised to learn the older medium is still being used. That's not only the case with Logos.

WIN 10 i7 9750H, RTX 2060, 16GB RAM | iPad Air 3

Posts 1181
Sean | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 3 2020 4:58 PM

Sean:
the chorus: "Just get an SSD!"
 

Actually, it would be good if FaithLife staff could chime in on this. Is this the official response to performance complaints? From all the posts by users with stars by their names, you'd think so. If we're not going to get any software fixes but only be advised to buy more hardware, it'd be good to know so we can save a lot of time and typing.

Posts 3754
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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 3 2020 5:39 PM

Sean:
Actually, it would be good if FaithLife staff could chime in on this. Is this the official response to performance complaints?

I think if the requirements ever did change, they’d remove HD (as the slower yet still functional) option.

PetahChristian:

The Logos recommended system requirements point out this very thing (and later mention "lightning fast" SSD as a better speed choice over slower HD):

However, when constantly reading and writing large amounts of data, like a large Logos library, hard drive speed can become a major bottleneck in some systems.

I’m running Logos on an internal HD and the only slowdown I notice is how painfully long it takes for a drop down to populate. Otherwise, it seems to run fine for me (but my system is a relatively recent high-end build from last summer). Others’ HD experience may vary.

(I didn’t realize how much space Windows used. I had a 256 Gb SSD on my Mac and could fit macOS and Logos there, but apparently should have gotten a 512 Gb SSD for Windows.)

My top three Logos 9 Wishlist items: Carta, Dark mode, and Hebrew audio bible, please.

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