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This post has 103 Replies | 2 Followers

Posts 408
Kevin | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 11 2020 12:58 PM | Locked

Thank you picked that up Yes

Posts 2262
GaoLu | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 12 2020 6:59 AM | Locked

You are great at finding good deals.  Thanks!

Posts 1276
Paul Caneparo | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 12 2020 7:55 AM | Locked

GaoLu:

You are great at finding good deals.  Thanks!

My wife may not agree!

Posts 630
David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 12 2020 8:40 AM | Locked

I wish we’d see some movement on the CP Mormonism collection. It would be useful in showing the alterations of their beliefs compared to the current version 

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Posts 1276
Paul Caneparo | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 12 2020 8:55 AM | Locked

David Wanat:

I wish we’d see some movement on the CP Mormonism collection. It would be useful in showing the alterations of their beliefs compared to the current version 

We don't really see many Mormons in the UK. Have their views shifted significantly recently?

Posts 3892
Mattillo | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 12 2020 9:14 AM | Locked

For those of you enjoying this book, they wrote some additional chapters and placed them online.  They had more planned but scrapped them.

https://www.mrm.org/sharing-with-mormons 

Bonus Chapters (Available only on this site)

The following are additional chapters to Sharing the Good News with Mormons.

Posts 630
David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 12 2020 6:55 PM | Locked

[EDIT] I think you're nitpicking over the fact that I misidentified the book, but avoiding the greater issue. I believe I accurately described the disconnect between past racist teaching and the 1978 revision. 

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Ultimate: Verbum | Diamond: Orthodox  | Gold: Eastern Rite, Ordinariate, Anglican | Silver: Standard | Bronze: Lutheran | Starter: Baptist, Messianic, Methodist, Pentecostal, Reformed, SDA

Posts 1464
Ben | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 12 2020 10:18 PM | Locked

I've been able to stay out of this so far, but as the resident Latter-day Saint here... well, the assertion quoted below is either carelessly sloppy or bearing false witness. It's the kind of low quality one tends to find in Evangelical witnessing/counter-cult books like this. If you want some responsible scholarship on what Latter-day Saints *actually* think and *actually* believe, I suggest this thread. https://community.logos.com/forums/t/88557.aspx 

David Wanat:

One example is, the most recent version of Doctrine and Covenants hides their rather racist past teachings on blacks and says it's a mystery why they were ever prevented from being priests, hiding the fact that in the past their Doctrine and Covenants explicitly barred them.

As there has never been a section of the Doctrine & Covenants codifying what LDS refer to as "the priesthood and temple ban," no such section existed to be secretly removed. (Try this book from Oxford Press for the relevent LDS history.) You can, however, read the canonized Official Declaration #2 in the Pearl of Great Price revoking this ban.

I note that I have corrected *you* before on this false claim, so instead of repeating myself, I will point people to that comment where I provide a brief discussion of useful paradigmatic differences between LDS and Protestants, and a number of links to holographs of original documents, where people can do their own text criticism to their heart's content. https://community.logos.com/forums/p/48213/886876.aspx#886876 

"The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected."- G.K. Chesterton

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 12 2020 11:16 PM | Locked

Thank you Ben, I hoped you would step in with accurate information.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 2575
David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 13 2020 8:03 AM | Locked

David Wanat:

why they were ever prevented from being priests, hiding the fact that in the past their Doctrine and Covenants explicitly barred them.

Unfortunately I am not Black so I do not know how I would have felt towards the prior stand.  But I was studying with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and was with two black couples when that "change" took place.  At the time they also gave the reasons of the prior and the changed readings.  Those couples were the ones that explained both stands to me.  They accepted the changes and the explanation for the prior stand.  Sometimes why you do something is more important than what you do.

Posts 10953
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 13 2020 8:19 AM | Locked

Also:

https://ebooks.faithlife.com/product/155117/sharing-the-good-news-with-evangelicals-practical-strategies-for-getting-the-conversation-started 

No, don't click on that.

Just illustrating how to make absolutely sure your target share-ees will see through your loving rightness. Better to just chat.

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

Posts 10953
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 13 2020 8:24 AM | Locked

David Wanat:

[EDIT] I think you're nitpicking over the fact that I misidentified the book, but avoiding the greater issue. I believe I accurately described the disconnect between past racist teaching and the 1978 revision. 

I don't mean to be the bearer of bad news, but most religions and varients have stuffed closets of skeletons. And, considerably more recent than the Latter Day Saints. Debates have to weave carefully to avoid the obvious.

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

Posts 1464
Ben | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 13 2020 9:01 AM | Locked

Edit: duplicate post somehow. See below.

"The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected."- G.K. Chesterton

Posts 1464
Ben | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 13 2020 9:02 AM | Locked

David Wanat:

[EDIT] I think you're nitpicking over the fact that I misidentified the book, but avoiding the greater issue. I believe I accurately described the disconnect between past racist teaching and the 1978 revision. 

No, you didn’t just “misidentify the book.” You engaged in accusations of ignorance and conspiracy mongering. Moreover, such ”disconnects” and changes are expected (though not necessarily comfortable) in a religion which preaches ongoing revelation and an open canon. (Jesus, Peter, and the kosher laws, anyone?); Mormonism is NOT Protestant, and if you approach or critique as if it were, you distort in fundamental ways. Richard Mouw gets that (see my previous link.)

ETA: And this is particularly frustrating, since I corrected you on this several years ago, providing bulletproof academic sources on LDS racial history AND text-criticism of LDS texts, all of which apparently fell on deaf ears. 

"The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected."- G.K. Chesterton

Posts 219
MWW | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 13 2020 4:50 PM | Locked

Duplicate... see below.

Posts 219
MWW | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 13 2020 4:50 PM | Locked

Mattillo:

For those of you enjoying this book, they wrote some additional chapters and placed them online.  They had more planned but scrapped them.

https://www.mrm.org/sharing-with-mormons

Thanks Mattillo, as a former Mormon who's roots go back to Palmyra... I find this stuff fascinating and look forward to reading these other chapters.

Posts 630
David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 18 2020 3:29 PM | Locked

I will apologize for my comments. It was uncalled for, and I hope you will forgive me.

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Posts 219
MWW | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 18 2020 9:20 PM | Locked

Ben:
As there has never been a section of the Doctrine & Covenants codifying what LDS refer to as "the priesthood and temple ban," no such section existed to be secretly removed. (Try this book from Oxford Press for the relevent LDS history.) You can, however, read the canonized Official Declaration #2 in the Pearl of Great Price revoking this ban.

I’m wondering if there Is there is an official document of the LDS church where the church apologizes for it’s racist history? The Church of England and the Southern Baptists have issued public apologies.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 19 2020 12:04 AM | Locked

MWW:
I’m wondering if there Is there is an official document of the LDS church where the church apologizes for it’s racist history?

This is not a case where I am invoking guidelines; this is a case where I am stating my personal response which was ".... get off calling a church racist by framing it as a question?" That's a beating your wife question ... i.e. fallacy hound is tugging hard at his leash.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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