SUGGESTION: PB Bibles Improvements or Bug Report

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Posts 70
Fabian | Forum Activity | Posted: Wed, Jun 17 2020 3:34 AM

Hello

I like that we can import PB Bibles with different verse mappings. Unfortunately we have to choose one verse mapping for the Bible. 

I would love if we can choose different verse mappings through the imported Bible. Which means. If we want to import a Bible which has for example the Schlachter 2000 verse mapping, but in one chapter it is like the Elberfelder 84, then we can change for this chapter the Milestone from Schlachter 2000 to Elberfelder 84. This would make the import of PB Bibles much easier and much more accurate. So we can generally choose the verse mapping on either chapter we import. That would make a huge difference. 

Or if we want to import a PB Bible where the jump from one chapter to the next is on another verse. Then we can choose a verse mapping for the both chapters where matches, so the beginning of the new chapter is on the right place.

One user mentioned this was possible in the early stage of PBB import, but not now anymore. 

So this is either a feature request or a bug report if this feature is only broken.

Thanks

Fabian

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David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 17 2020 5:16 AM

For a bible that did not match the verse mapping that I use in my "Reference" bible what I did was go to Chapter, Verse, Sub-verse.  

So when the bible had "extra" text between verse 4 and 5 I used 4.01, 4.02, etc.  But would all be seen as verse 4.

As in 4: 4.00 (the verse four text that matches the "Reference") followed as part of verse 4 lines separated by newlines of 4.01,   4.02,  4.03.  

[When you requested verse 4 you would see four lines between verse 3 and verse 5.  However this was only for my use of a bible not in Logos that had some "different" readings such as the extension of Daniel inline instead of as a separate book as in the LXX.  Also Exodus chapters 36 and up.  Yes, I could have used the LXX verse mapping but I needed to fully compare that bible to my "Reference" bible]

Posts 70
Fabian | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 17 2020 5:51 AM

David Ames:

For a bible that did not match the verse mapping that I use in my "Reference" bible what I did was go to Chapter, Verse, Sub-verse.  

So when the bible had "extra" text between verse 4 and 5 I used 4.01, 4.02, etc.  But would all be seen as verse 4.

As in 4: 4.00 (the verse four text that matches the "Reference") followed as part of verse 4 lines separated by newlines of 4.01,   4.02,  4.03.  

[When you requested verse 4 you would see four lines between verse 3 and verse 5.  However this was only for my use of a bible not in Logos that had some "different" readings such as the extension of Daniel inline instead of as a separate book as in the LXX.  Also Exodus chapters 36 and up.  Yes, I could have used the LXX verse mapping but I needed to fully compare that bible to my "Reference" bible]

Thanks for the tip. Good to know.

But I'm not interested in a workaround.  

Posts 2643
David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 17 2020 5:59 AM

Fabian:
  I'm not interested in a workaround.   
  Understood.  

Posts 70
Fabian | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 17 2020 6:04 AM

Danke

Das kenne ich, aber das löst das Problem noch nicht. Das ist eine gute Übersichtstabelle die hilft, aber damit kann ich noch nicht verschiedene Verse Mappings mischen. 

For example I have a Bible (example from the site Thomas mentioned) with the Exodus 5,24 like the Afrikaans. But also with a verse 30 in Ex 6 like the Zunz or JPS, then I would love if I can use for the Ex 5 the [[@Bible+afr1933: xxx]] Milestone but also the [[@Bible+Zunz: xxx]] Milestone in Ex 6. In the same Bible, so Logos recognize for each chapter the Milestones not only one for the full Bible. Or on a verse basis.

As I mentioned before: It seems this was possible in an earlier version of Logos. So maybe it is only broken. If it is disabled by purpose I want it back. 

Thanks. 

 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 17 2020 3:16 PM

Fabian:

For example I have a Bible (example from the site Thomas mentioned) with the Exodus 5,24 like the Afrikaans. But also with a verse 30 in Ex 6 like the Zunz or JPS, then I would love if I can use for the Ex 5 the [[@Bible+afr1933: xxx]] Milestone but also the [[@Bible+Zunz: xxx]] Milestone in Ex 6. In the same Bible, so Logos recognize for each chapter the Milestones not only one for the full Bible. Or on a verse basis.

As I mentioned before: It seems this was possible in an earlier version of Logos. So maybe it is only broken. If it is disabled by purpose I want it back. 

You must add one piece to your proposal - what will the Bible index for the resulting Bible be? The index that appears in the Information Panel under Indexes, that is.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Fabian:
with the Exodus 5,24 like the Afrikaans. But also with a verse 30 in Ex 6

Bible verse maps aren't simply about the number of verses in each chapter; they also include knowledge of what the text in those verses is.

For an example, consider "And he stood on the shore of the sea" in Rev 12:17-13:1. Some Bibles put that text in 12:17, some add 12:18 for just that text, and some put it in 13:1. (And there are possibly other combinations!)

Rev 12:18 in NRSV converts to Rev 12:17 in ESV, but Rev 13:1 in NIV (both of which only have 17 verses in Revelation 12). Simply knowing the number of verses in a chapter isn't necessarily sufficient to pick the correct versemap; it can need to be analysed verse-by-verse.

This is also partly why a Bible can only use a single verse map; mixing and matching verse references from different Bible data types may not make sense if they are referring to different texts. (For example, if ESV Rev 12:17 were followed immediately by NIV Rev 13:1 in a PBB Bible, you should have the text "And he stood on the sand of the sea" in both verses!)

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 17 2020 4:24 PM

Thanks Bradley for your post and example!

Since this came up recently I was thinking about posting something along your line (because somebody advised to just go with the bible verse map with the most verses per chapter for PBs, whereas I was thinking about "getting it right", but lacked a proper example to show what would be wrong if one didn't).

The unfortunate thing is that the details of bible verse maps lead to nearly every bible having their own - and thus making it difficult for PB bibles, which are not yet in the Logos universe. The only good workaround when no existing map fits would be to publish the PB in several volumes (i.e. chunks of biblical books that follow existing verse maps). 

Running Logos 8 latest beta version on Win 10

Posts 70
Fabian | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 17 2020 11:02 PM

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):

Fabian:
with the Exodus 5,24 like the Afrikaans. But also with a verse 30 in Ex 6

Bible verse maps aren't simply about the number of verses in each chapter; they also include knowledge of what the text in those verses is.

For an example, consider "And he stood on the shore of the sea" in Rev 12:17-13:1. Some Bibles put that text in 12:17, some add 12:18 for just that text, and some put it in 13:1. (And there are possibly other combinations!)

Rev 12:18 in NRSV converts to Rev 12:17 in ESV, but Rev 13:1 in NIV (both of which only have 17 verses in Revelation 12). Simply knowing the number of verses in a chapter isn't necessarily sufficient to pick the correct versemap; it can need to be analysed verse-by-verse.

This is also partly why a Bible can only use a single verse map; mixing and matching verse references from different Bible data types may not make sense if they are referring to different texts. (For example, if ESV Rev 12:17 were followed immediately by NIV Rev 13:1 in a PBB Bible, you should have the text "And he stood on the sand of the sea" in both verses!)

Hello Bradley

Thanks, I'm aware of this (means the content parallel not the Bible verses). And to make the PBB to be in parallel to other Bibles we need to mix Bible mappings. But what you mentioned is also true if we have only one Bible data type. Also there we have to find the correct Bible data type to be the content in parallel with the rest of Logos. Your argument supports my request and is not against it. Because of the parallel to mix up is fully needed. I don't know if I have written it, because in the edit windows in the forums here I cannot see the other posts, but the chapter jump problematic was in my mind. If we have a Bible which has this on another part or it happens more than one and the Bible data type doesn't support the one or both issues we have the problem. I'm aware we have to spot on the chapter problematic. 

Your argument is exactly why we need to mix up. Thank for your support. Because there is no Bible like the others, on one place it matches with some Bible data types, but on other places it matches with other Bible data types. And to have all in one Bible, not to import the PBB in sections, my request is started. 

I guess Logos do the same: I guess you have a master list, which we don't have access, and new Bibles you matches on this master list. I guess this master list is also dynamic which makes it variable but difficult. As we don't have this master list. The workaround for us as user is: to catch up the PBB with the most matching Bible data type as our master list, but where it differs we jump to a second list. Indicated by the Milestones. As by Logos  this creates then a new one.

I know it is either way a lot of work. If we have to cripple the PBB to match only one Bible data types. But with the result the PBB will always be a cripple. Or to search and find chapters which matches the PBB perfect. But then the PBB is great and it makes fun to use it. I found out I have invested too many hours to find the perfect Bible data type. It need every time several tries, and every time the PBB must also be changed, because there were always verses then out of order. This time could be better invest in searching the matching chapter (chapters if there is the chapter change in it), but then with the result of a better Bible. For example I want to import the public domain "De Wette" Bible. I have to try different Bible data types. And I have to choose which one is the most closest to the De Wette. Then I have for the not matching verses to do a workaround. Often I have then 3 or 4 PBB created with different Bible data types, but non is good. In one PBB one part of the Bible is good and on the other the other part is good, only because I can't mix. It would even help to have the ability to mix Bible data types on the book basis. But better would be on chapter basis. 

I know this is very difficult and the Bible software companies tries to handle it easier for the customers, but then the Bible the customers imports are always just a work around. To keep it simple is often to not overwhelm the user. But after some years creating Bibles I found out only a few user jumps in this area. And the one who jumps in are not satisfied with the work arounds.

To try to keep it simpler by offering only one Bible data type per Bible makes it in reality no simpler it only moves the difficult part on another place.

Posts 70
Fabian | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 17 2020 11:17 PM

MJ. Smith:

Fabian:

For example I have a Bible (example from the site Thomas mentioned) with the Exodus 5,24 like the Afrikaans. But also with a verse 30 in Ex 6 like the Zunz or JPS, then I would love if I can use for the Ex 5 the [[@Bible+afr1933: xxx]] Milestone but also the [[@Bible+Zunz: xxx]] Milestone in Ex 6. In the same Bible, so Logos recognize for each chapter the Milestones not only one for the full Bible. Or on a verse basis.

As I mentioned before: It seems this was possible in an earlier version of Logos. So maybe it is only broken. If it is disabled by purpose I want it back. 

You must add one piece to your proposal - what will the Bible index for the resulting Bible be? The index that appears in the Information Panel under Indexes, that is.

The Milestone I use says it. is this not one reason for the Milestones? The name of the Bible is "De Wette" if follows most the NRSV, which is the closest, indicated by the Milestones, but on two chapter if follows on the Schlachter 2000, indicated by the Milestones. If I understand the Milestones correct. 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 18 2020 12:25 AM

Fabian:
If I understand the Milestones correct. 

What you are missing is the relationship between the milestones and the indexing and therefore the access. I asked my question as a Socratic question -- to lead you to the conclusion that was made explicit by Bradley. To the best of my knowledge, what you are suggesting has never been supported - on the other hand, I would have never tried it because it appears to me to be logically inconsistent. To disrupt the basic system principle that a Bible has a single verse map would be a substantial effort requiring extensive testing ... and believe me, I have pounded on verse maps for years to get them as reliable as they are now.But I know a few places where I can "break them" to make a point - esoteric cases I don't want Logos spending the resources necessary to fix.

But, don't let me discourage you ... if enough people are building PBB Bibles for which there are no obvious verse mappings, then the problem should be brought to the attention of Logos and a solution found.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 70
Fabian | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 18 2020 12:33 AM

Another example:

Mr. Ulrich was so nice to send me the source file of the https://www.fraumuenster.ch/das-fraumunster/ulrich-bibel/ Now this Bible has 3. Macc and 3. and 4. Esdras. I would love if I can take a Bible data type which matches the Bible, because it is an old one I guess I have to mix, and then I can go on with another Milestone with the Apocryphal books.

Or I have a Bible which follows in the OT the Hebrew Bible but in the NT the KJV. Then I would love if I can use for the OT the HB Milestones and for the NT the KJV Milestones. Like this Bible http://amarel.com

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 18 2020 12:50 AM

The Ulrich Bibel IIRC is a relative of the Zurich Bible (1531) ... I don't have German resources in quantities to get from that to the correct verse mapping but I would assume that there is already a verse mapping that is very close. The issue then becomes whether Logos published the original in its entirety or if they truncated it to match the future shorter canon.

Note: I think the Fraumünster bibel is an alternative name (name of a church?) for the Ulrich Bibel which is named for the comments written by Ulrich

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 70
Fabian | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 18 2020 12:50 AM

Thanks. Yes I wasn't sure what you wanted to say. 

MJ. Smith:
what you are suggesting has never been supported

Thanks, so then my Suggestion is not a bug report but a feature request. 

And let me say, I know not many goes in building PBB, but there are people like mine (one of my hobbies) who does it for others too. That means Logos can't only count the people who requested features for this topic.

Thanks

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 18 2020 12:12 PM

Fabian:
Now this Bible has 3. Macc and 3. and 4. Esdras. I would love if I can take a Bible data type which matches the Bible, because it is an old one I guess I have to mix, and then I can go on with another Milestone with the Apocryphal books.

Suggestion is creating Personal Book (PB) Bibles so each PB Bible uses one Bible Milestone type (map). The PB Bibles can be connected for verse navigation using Series (with automatic switching between PB Bibles when appropriate). Prudent to avoid verse overlap: each verse should only be found in one PB Bible in a Series.

Faithlife offers => The Holy Bible: King James Version (KJV) that is two Bible Resources: Apocryphal Books are in their own Bible resource.

Fabian:
Or I have a Bible which follows in the OT the Hebrew Bible but in the NT the KJV.

My custom series name "2012h:LHB + 2010g:SBLGNT" describes Lexham Hebrew Bible (LHB) + Society of Biblical Literature Greek New Testament (SBLGNT) being connected for verse navigation between Old and New Testament using different Bible Verse Maps.

Thread => Great ideas for arranging your commentary collections! discussion includes my commentary title & abbreviated title conventions. For Bibles, have a similar convention:

  • #### for Year (content composition/publication)
  • Language
    • null = English
    • a = Arabic
    • d = deutsch (German)
    • e = español (Spanish)
    • f = francés (French)
    • g = Greek
    • h = Hebrew
    • i = italiano (Italian)
    • L = Latin
    • s = Syriac
  • Optional Abbreviation
  • : (visual separator)
  • Original Title
  • Optional suffix (Year translated/published)

Abbreviated Title

  • #### Year
  • Language
    • null = English
    • a = Arabic
    • d = deutsch (German)
    • e = español (Spanish)
    • f = francés (French)
    • g = Greek
    • h = Hebrew
    • i = italiano (Italian)
    • L = Latin
    • s = Syriac
  • : (visual separator)
  • Abbreviation

Keep Smiling Smile

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