"Your LBS License will also automatically terminate if you materially breach these Terms."

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Posts 145
Pete De Bonte | Forum Activity | Posted: Sun, Jun 21 2020 7:13 PM

I'm haven't been active on these forums in recent years, so although the EULA change was apparently announced here early last year, I didn't discover it until a couple months ago (was e-mail sent to users?), and I've been waiting some "free" time to write about it.

Here's my core complaint: the Faithlife ToS "automatically terminate" and autoterminating EULAs only penalize the honest: As Christians, we all know that we can't follow the law perfectly. If I eventually find that I've somehow violated the Faithlfie ToS (scary: maybe I already have), then I'd now be ethically/conscience-bound to stop using my LBS library.

I'm poor at expressing my emotions, but I was probably shocked and upset when I found this two months ago, and now I'm disappointed and, as I write this, sad. I've declined many software EULAs in the past because they have such autotermination clauses, exactly because of this problem of conscience; and if I'd known this was going to happen with LBS, I probably wouldn't have started using it in the first place. I certainly wouldn't have put money into it: that is something that I've rarely done for any software company, which shows how impressed I have been with LBS. There have been some tempting sales lately (and tomorrow), but I've been reluctant to put more into a jug that might just shatter if I trip. Moreover, although I've raved about LBS to friends in the past, I wouldn't want to promote it to friends now, exposing them into the same problem of conscience.

I feel trapped. As with God, Faithlife is the potter, so I recognize their authority to do anything with their clay. But may I pray for mercy? Here's one idea for a compromise: I've seen some EULAs that state that terminate if the the user is contacted and fails to make it right in some reasonable time. May we have some provision for reconciliation?

Thank you for listening,
-Pete

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 21 2020 7:42 PM

Since much of the FL materials are not owned by them but rather licensed to them, I would expect the EULA to reflect the terms that FL is held to by their licenses. I don't see a legal grounds on which they could make it looser. -- Just my thoughts; I do see why some would find this burdensome especially when we don't know what "materially breach" means legally.

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Posts 145
Pete De Bonte | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 22 2020 4:33 AM

Embarrassingly enough, I've now discovered that the L4 EULA was autoterminating back in 2013 (the earliest Wayback Machine capture). My order history predates that, but I'm guessing that I started using LBS before I started paying attention to/became aware of autotermination. So it seems the consolidation into the Faithlife ToS were only the catalyst to me noticing this. Sigh.

I still wonder if, e.g. MJ's guess about publisher agreements is right; or, as I've long thought of the LBS EULA as being a gracious one, could it possibly change to allow users to repent and be restored?

Posts 10974
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 22 2020 6:10 AM

Oh. So, you're concerned (that for some or maybe many customers), that FL rips (automatically .... very efficient) $30-40,000 worth of materials out of their  hands? Or maybe just authorization. Or server support. Or.

But Bob's always said it's in there for egregious situations (they need 'something' to pull the plug). I think he even gave examples ... imagine one license running a small city of nefarious Logosians.

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

Posts 145
Pete De Bonte | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 22 2020 6:24 AM

Denise:
... imagine one license running a small city of nefarious Logosians.

In such an extreme situation, couldn't the terms allow Faithlife take action to disable such an account (e.g. "Faithlife may terminate…"), rather than making it automatic and penalizing users who desire to be honest?

Posts 535
Bobby Terhune | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 22 2020 6:42 AM

Pete,

What exactly are you afraid of doing that would put you in some kind of jeopardy? Bob has given us the parameters that are very generous compared to any software I use. For instance anyone in your home can use the software unless that other person is using it in a professional manner. such as the spouse being a minister or a professor.

Like Denise said, it was to protect Faithlife against egregious abuse by a user. One actual instance Bob gave was a student at a bible school who was sharing his software with other students and if I remember correctly even charging them to make a copy.    

Posts 647
David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 22 2020 7:45 AM

Bobby Terhune:

Pete,

What exactly are you afraid of doing that would put you in some kind of jeopardy? Bob has given us the parameters that are very generous compared to any software I use. For instance anyone in your home can use the software unless that other person is using it in a professional manner. such as the spouse being a minister or a professor.

Like Denise said, it was to protect Faithlife against egregious abuse by a user. One actual instance Bob gave was a student at a bible school who was sharing his software with other students and if I remember correctly even charging them to make a copy.    

Given the investment, I’d be worried about doing something wrong out of ignorance and getting banned for it. But it sounds like the OP is talking about self-policing after discovering he accidentally  broke a rule.

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DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 22 2020 8:02 AM

When people ask me if I can share my program because it’s cool, I say “No, I can’t because 1) I invested a lot of money in it and 2) All my personal information is visible once I‘m logged in.  It’s a way to protect me and the company from illegal use of the software.

I definitely wouldn’t worry about anything since I’m the ONLY person allowed to use my Logos.  My possible future wife already has Logos Fundamentals that I gave to her and she uses it mostly on her mobile devise for quick readings.

When the time comes, I’ll leave it to someone in my will, hopefully not any time soon 😂😂😂

DAL

Posts 145
Pete De Bonte | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 22 2020 8:53 AM

David Wanat:
But it sounds like the OP is talking about self-policing after discovering he accidentally  broke a rule.

Yes! You understand. Thank you.

Posts 10974
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 22 2020 8:58 AM

Pete De Bonte:

Denise:
... imagine one license running a small city of nefarious Logosians.

In such an extreme situation, couldn't the terms allow Faithlife take action to disable such an account (e.g. "Faithlife may terminate…"), rather than making it automatic and penalizing users who desire to be honest?

I think 'automatic' isn't the decisioning ... it's what happens after (digital rights and associated connection).

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

Posts 145
Pete De Bonte | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 22 2020 3:53 PM

Denise:
I think 'automatic' isn't the decisioning ... it's what happens after (digital rights and associated connection).

Sorry, I'm uncertain if I'm parsing this correctly: could you clarify?

Posts 10974
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 22 2020 4:57 PM

"Your LBS License will also automatically terminate if you materially breach these Terms."

Sorry, the font size above is from the thread title, and ths being tiny font.

If you materially violate the terms .... FL spends time, discussion, maybe communication .... FL can programmatically terminate the license.

'Materially' means they're decisioning, reviewing, etc. prior to any action. They might choose to ignore, keep an eye on, etc. Even maybe forgive.

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

Posts 145
Pete De Bonte | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 22 2020 5:23 PM

If they have to make a decision, how is it automatic? Or more to my concern: if it is automatic, how does that leave any room for a decision?

On the other hand, what you are suggesting sounds like more of a fit to the language that I began to suggest earlier: "Faithlife may terminate your LBS License if you…" I've seen that kind of language in other EULAs.

Posts 10974
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 22 2020 5:36 PM

Pete De Bonte:
Here's my core complaint: the Faithlife ToS "automatically terminate" and autoterminating EULAs only penalize the honest: As Christians, we all know that we can't follow the law perfectly. If I eventually find that I've somehow violated the Faithlfie ToS (scary: maybe I already have), then I'd now be ethically/conscience-bound to stop using my LBS library.

I assumed this was your concern. My point is 'materially' qualifies violate ... you left that out. They decide if a material violation occurred. To date, FL has proceeded in a Christian-like fashion. Bob's examples were well beyond 'materially'.

So, I guess, what were you expecting? DR is DR. Ownership.

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

Posts 145
Pete De Bonte | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 22 2020 6:18 PM

You do seem to have accurately quoted me, so your assumption is correct. I was certainly not making an accusation against Bob or Faithlife in general. What does DR stand for?

Now, what does "materially breach" mean? MJ had mentioned it last night, but thanks for shedding doubt on my understanding. I've encountered "material" with "changes" before, and had presumed it would have similar impact with breach. Having now surveyed some legal dictionaries, however, it does seem much stronger (extreme even) when used with breach.

So, returning to David Wanat's accurate "self-policing" depiction of my concern, if "materially" breach really does restrict it to extreme cases, then perhaps I can have more hope that I haven't done that, and carry on. It would be more comforting to know if my understanding matches Faithlife's original intent, though.

Posts 10974
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 22 2020 6:45 PM

DR is digital rights, spelled out by law. It's how we own licenses ... not books.

Regarding intent, you might get lucky with an FL response. But historically, FL tends to try to favor customers well beyond the technical EULA ... they just don't like to discuss exactly, and get themselves in trouble with publishers (as MJ discusses above).

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 22 2020 11:26 PM

Pete De Bonte:
So, returning to David Wanat's accurate "self-policing" depiction of my concern, if "materially" breach really does restrict it to extreme cases, then perhaps I can have more hope that I haven't done that, and carry on.

One DR concern of Faithlife has seen that uploaded Personal Books are not organised into a Library for sharing with other users. So they provide only a 'cloud" repository for your PB's, as with other User Content, and thus limit DR issues to the way you manage it. If you use Clippings, the material you copy as a 'clip' from a resource bears the appropriate Citation. The material you copy into its Note, or as an annotation in the Notes tool (from your FL resources), will also bear a citation if the selection is more than 25 characters. So, ensure that Copy Citations = YES in Program Settings. Citations for external material is your responsibility, as well as obtaining Copyright for some of your Personal Books (as per last paragraph of EULA section 7).

Infringements have to be proven as per Section 8. So "materially breach" would mean you were quite deliberate in that matter. So avoid sharing your Content to lessen the risk! I don't consciously 'not share' for that reason, and I will attribute non-copied material where the substance came from a published work.

Dave
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Posts 3585
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 23 2020 4:50 AM

The TL;DR oversimplified version of this thread is that "materially breach" means that there's nothing about the EULA that should be bothering your conscience.

Posts 647
David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 23 2020 8:25 AM

Dave Hooton:

Pete De Bonte:
So, returning to David Wanat's accurate "self-policing" depiction of my concern, if "materially" breach really does restrict it to extreme cases, then perhaps I can have more hope that I haven't done that, and carry on.

One DR concern of Faithlife has seen that uploaded Personal Books are not organised into a Library for sharing with other users. So they provide only a 'cloud" repository for your PB's, as with other User Content, and thus limit DR issues to the way you manage it. If you use Clippings, the material you copy as a 'clip' from a resource bears the appropriate Citation. The material you copy into its Note, or as an annotation in the Notes tool (from your FL resources), will also bear a citation if the selection is more than 25 characters. So, ensure that Copy Citations = YES in Program Settings. Citations for external material is your responsibility, as well as obtaining Copyright for some of your Personal Books (as per last paragraph of EULA section 7).

Infringements have to be proven as per Section 8. So "materially breach" would mean you were quite deliberate in that matter. So avoid sharing your Content to lessen the risk! I don't consciously 'not share' for that reason, and I will attribute non-copied material where the substance came from a published work.

This is helpful. I was worried about accidentally violating some obscure rule and losing my license, but if I understand it correctly, this would be more about attempts to violate copyright rules deliberately?

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Posts 145
Pete De Bonte | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 23 2020 8:32 AM

SineNomine:
The TL;DR oversimplified version of this thread is that [the EULA's use of] "materially breach" means that there's nothing about the EULA that should be bothering your conscience.

…nothing that should be bothering my conscience about accidentally "materially" breaching it. That is, IF my understanding of "materially breach" matches Faithlife's intent.

(That's the nonoversimplified TL;DR version)

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