Rumors of Apple Silicon Chips?

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This post has 18 Replies | 2 Followers

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Theo | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Aug 18 2020 5:52 AM

Apparently, it is true Apple is developing chips that would allow full programs to run on the iPhone and iPads meaning eventually Logos could run native on either with almost all features in place. It is rumored that the OSes would be basically bridged allowing for apps on either platform to perform on either medium. The dichotomy between desktops, laptops, and more mobile devices seems to be disappearing.

As they switched from PowerPC chips in 2006 to Intel, they are now looking to switch to this new architecture by 2022 using an updated version of Rosetta to translate code from x86 to the new architecture as they transitioned from PowerPC to x86. Would we be then seeing Logos designed in the new native code and moving beyond the current restrictive Intel architectures to something far more outstanding and cutting edge affording larger than life battery life amid super performance? That would be a massive overhaul indeed I would think.

Is this a pipe dream or is there legitimacy of me being able to think about having virtually all of Logos on a tablet or phone without the current handicapped situation?

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 18 2020 5:57 AM

Theo:
Is this a pipe dream or is there legitimacy of me being able to think about having virtually all of Logos on a tablet or phone without the current handicapped situation?

It is a pipe dream to think that you would ever run the full logos on any phone you have now. It is conceivable that the full Logos might run on a tablet... but I don't think this will be anytime soon either. 

Theo:
Would we be then seeing Logos designed in the new native code and moving beyond the current restrictive Intel architectures to something far more outstanding and cutting edge affording larger than life battery life amid super performance? That would be a massive overhaul indeed I would think.

You need to remember that FL codes the windows and Mac apps side by side. The Mac version is dependent upon windows technologies. We will have to see what happens moving forward. 

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JT (alabama24):
The Mac version is dependent upon windows technologies.

It's not, though.

The Windows application is dependent on Windows technologies; the macOS application is dependent on Apple technologies.

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 18 2020 11:44 AM

Mono?

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 18 2020 11:59 AM

Theo:
Is this a pipe dream or is there legitimacy of me being able to think about having virtually all of Logos on a tablet or phone without the current handicapped situation?

Logos and Verbum are resource intensive applications that need:

  • Fast Processor
  • Graphics Display
  • Random Access Memory (RAM)
  • Storage
  • User Interface

Current iPad Pro hardware => https://www.apple.com/ipad-pro/specs/ lacks: (Storage up to 1 TB can be configured)

Recommended Hardware and Software for Logos/Verbum includes 16 GB RAM while System Requirements show a minimum of 2 GB so 2020 iPad Pro (and 2018 iPad Pro with 1 TB storage) with 6 GB RAM have more than the minimum RAM needed, but not recommended.

Review of 2020 iPad Pro => https://appleinsider.com/articles/20/03/27/review-2020-ipad-pro-is-more-about-future-software-than-the-hardware-gains-today describes ability to produce 4K videos and content creation: "greatly useful device for drawing, note-taking, coloring, dealing with documents, or editing photos." iPadOS supports cursor along with Bluetooth peripherals: mice & keyboards.

User Interface software support in iPadOS and macOS have different user interaction design: e.g. iPadOS touch screen. For iOS and iPadOS mobile apps to run well on Apple Silicon, am dreaming about touch screen Mac model.

Keep Smiling Smile

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mab | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 18 2020 6:17 PM

You still have to consider how running a 11 inch screen version of Logos would be havoc central with all the detail one sees now on a desktop. I am currently using a very sharp screen laptop and appreciate all the more being able to see the details and being able to access them with precision. There's still a whole order of old school computing that makes a full Logos application on a tablet less than functional. 

Yeah it sounds so sleek, and that is cool, but I don't think it is ready for prime time. Logos on my iPad as it stands, still rocks and I am very grateful. I can get some serious reading and study done anywhere there's WiFi.

The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter

Posts 81
Josh Moore | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 18 2020 6:48 PM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):

Recommended Hardware and Software for Logos/Verbum includes 16 GB RAM while System Requirements show a minimum of 2 GB so 2020 iPad Pro (and 2018 iPad Pro with 1 TB storage) with 6 GB RAM have more than the minimum RAM needed, but not recommended.

Noted. But how many people are running Logos on laptops/desktops with 16 GB of RAM? I’m not and won’t be for quite a while, if ever, but my Logos is more than sufficient. I don’t expect to see a Logos iPadOS in 2020 that will replace the computer version, but at least having a product that MAXIMIZES the 2020 iPad Pro’s potential and unique capabilities would be nice to see and is a reasonable expectation. An iPad app that is identical to the iPhone app is disappointing.

Posts 81
Josh Moore | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 18 2020 6:49 PM

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):

JT (alabama24):
The Mac version is dependent upon windows technologies.

It's not, though.

The Windows application is dependent on Windows technologies; the macOS application is dependent on Apple technologies.

This makes me SOOOOOOOOOOOO happy to read. 🙏 

Posts 289
Theo | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 18 2020 8:22 PM

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):

JT (alabama24):
The Mac version is dependent upon windows technologies.

It's not, though.

The Windows application is dependent on Windows technologies; the macOS application is dependent on Apple technologies.

While I guessed this was so, I know there's the whole approach here under debate to the aficionados on either side at work. I think Logos was developed originally obviously based upon Microsoft and for keeping things similar has chosen to replicate that experience as much as possible in the Mac version. Some see that as a downside thinking Logos does not take the fullest advantage of the Mac philosophy. The Mac user intuitively finds Logos a bit jarring at times, so I am told.  I presume it is easier to switch between the two as they are much alike. However, all of this is a guess as I have not used both. It's been years since I used Mac. 

The intent of my OP was performance. Does this mean at least the Mac version could theoretically run full native Logos on Mobile devices that presently are limited by the iPhone App meaning features like reverse-interlinear would be available in some sense even if because of screen real estate somewhat limited, but not because of performance?   

Regardless, all Mac programs will take time to move from x86 to Apple Silicon as they did with PowerPC. Translators will do their best in the meantime. It seems to me this means Logos will eventually be coded natively for Apple Silicon rather then just ever relying on an outdated x86 architecture that Intel has failed to keep at the forefront in the past few years forcing Apple to take the matter into their own hands. 

Now what will regulators cry out on Apple's "monopoly" when Intel merely failed to keep pace? I slimmer design not requiring the high intensity cooling which means more power and longer battery life and full Logos. How will Microsoft compete? They joined Google and use Android. Foldables promise more screen sizes. But the app is quite handicapped over even the web app. I was hoping full Windows on a Surface phone. Looks like Apple will beat everyone to the punch. 

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David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 18 2020 8:33 PM

Josh Moore:

Noted. But how many people are running Logos on laptops/desktops with 16 GB of RAM? I’m not and won’t be for quite a while, if ever, but my Logos is more than sufficient. I don’t expect to see a Logos iPadOS in 2020 that will replace the computer version, but at least having a product that MAXIMIZES the 2020 iPad Pro’s potential and unique capabilities would be nice to see and is a reasonable expectation. An iPad app that is identical to the iPhone app is disappointing.

When I needed to replace my laptop, the first thing I did was check the recommended Logos specs 😉

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Bradley Grainger (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 19 2020 11:29 AM

JT (alabama24):

Mono?

Has been a cross-platform technology (primarily targeting Linux and Unix) since 1.0: https://www.mono-project.com/docs/about-mono/releases/1.0.0/

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Bradley Grainger (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 19 2020 11:30 AM

(Both the Windows and macOS applications also depend heavily on non-platform-specific, non-Microsoft, non-Apple, cross-platform open-source libraries. Check Help > About for details.)

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 19 2020 3:21 PM

Theo:
The Mac user intuitively finds Logos a bit jarring at times, so I am told.

Also true for Windows as Logos and Verbum have User Interface interactions that are a bit different than Windows and Mac: e.g. Logos and Verbum have their own color scheme (effectively ignores most Windows user color preferences).

Theo:
I presume it is easier to switch between the two as they are much alike.

Yes for easily switching platforms as desired (primary difference between platforms is controls for closing, minimizing & maximizing window: macOS is on the left side while Window is on the right side). Online sync propagates changes on one platform to the other. Resource file content is identical, which has allowed me to use scan command for copying & indexing resource files between platforms.

Josh Moore:

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):

Recommended Hardware and Software for Logos/Verbum includes 16 GB RAM while System Requirements show a minimum of 2 GB so 2020 iPad Pro (and 2018 iPad Pro with 1 TB storage) with 6 GB RAM have more than the minimum RAM needed, but not recommended.

Noted. But how many people are running Logos on laptops/desktops with 16 GB of RAM?

Humanly not know. My primary 27" iMac 5K running macOS 10.15.6 has 64 GB RAM (with 1 TB SSD) and a Dell Inspiron 7720 running Windows 10 Pro 2004 has 16 GB RAM (with 512 GB SSD).

Josh Moore:
I don’t expect to see a Logos iPadOS in 2020 that will replace the computer version, but at least having a product that MAXIMIZES the 2020 iPad Pro’s potential and unique capabilities would be nice to see and is a reasonable expectation.

As Faithlife explores Native ARM compilation of Logos and Verbum for macOS 11 "Big Sur" (in anticipation of Apple Silicon Chips being released for public purchase), hoping ARM exploration includes iPadOS (idealistic dream situation would simply be changing target for compilation, which would allow iPadOS and macOS to have identical capabilities). Being able to install Logos & Verbum on iPadOS that can do visual filter highlighting would provide an incentive for replacing an older 2013 MacBook Air (MBA) with 2020 iPad Pro (touch screen MBA with detached keyboard). Also dreaming of an Apple Silicon MBA with touch screen (awesome would be a two in one unit where keyboard can fold under for tablet use).

Theo:
The intent of my OP was performance.

Older thread => Apple Silicon includes some performance observations: e.g. appears Rosetta 2 is ~28% slower running Intel code in emulation on Apple ARM. Also single core benchmarks show A13 Apple ARM performance being ~7% faster than a ninth generation Intel Core i9 (plus noticeably faster than ARM processors available for Android and Windows).

Theo:
Now what will regulators cry out on Apple's "monopoly" when Intel merely failed to keep pace?

Especially when Apple's market share is a minority on all computing devices so lacks one "monopoly" aspect. Overall market share => https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share in July 2020 shows:

  • 39.06 % Android (30.41 % 9.0 Pie, 25.32 % 10.0 10, 11.49 % 8.1 Oreo, ...)
  • 36.05 % Windows (73.05 % Win10, 20.04% Win7, 4.52% Win8.1, ...)
  • 14.22 % iOS (62.81 % iOS 13.5, 9.62 % iOS 12.4, 6.94 % iOS 13.3, ...)
  •   7.91 % OS X (54.94 % macOS 10.15 Catalina, 17.72 % macOS 10.14 Mojave, 13.25 % macOS 10.13 High Sierra, ...)
  •   1.3 %  Unknown
  •   0.87 % Linux

Overall Top 5 market share in July 2020 (by Operating System):

  • 26.33 % Windows 10
  • 11.88 % Android 9.0 Pie
  •   9.89 % Android 10.0 10
  •   8.93 % iOS 13.5
  •   7.83 % Windows 7

Keep Smiling Smile

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David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 19 2020 5:23 PM

Theo:

The Mac user intuitively finds Logos a bit jarring at times, so I am told.  I presume it is easier to switch between the two as they are much alike. However, all of this is a guess as I have not used both. It's been years since I used Mac. 

Having used a Mac from 2014 until March of this year before switching back to PC II still use an iPad for mobile use), I never really noticed a difference. Just the particular idiosyncrasies for each OS (each does some things better or worse). My PC is more powerful than my Mac was, so it runs better that way. Logos 8 was just a little too much for my Mac, though 7 and earlier ran well. But other than that, I couldn't complain about either.

That might change with ARM, I don't know. But if FL can keep them behaving in a similar manner, there shouldn't be any deal breakers there.

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Posts 289
Theo | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 19 2020 9:00 PM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):

 which would allow iPadOS and macOS to have identical capabilities). 

This is what I am hoping whether a separate OS or not--equal capabilities even if real world performance is not equal just pleasantly usable.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):
 

Older thread => Apple Silicon includes some performance observations: e.g. appears Rosetta 2 is ~28% slower running Intel code in emulation on Apple ARM. Also single core benchmarks show A13 Apple ARM performance being ~7% faster than a ninth generation Intel Core i9 (plus noticeably faster than ARM processors available for Android and Windows). 

Won't they be on A15 or so by the time the laptops get these new chips? 

So after all of this...

If Apple achieves this on a decent scale and one can run most all of Logos on its smaller mobile devices admittedly a disadvantage due to screen size?

What does Windows have to compete?

Will Samsung's Dex come to the rescue and somehow do something on its phones while also offering a larger screen interface option when needed?

Where's the one ring to rule them all scenario? When will we get to one device that can take us to the best of all worlds?

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 19 2020 9:51 PM

Theo:

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):
 

Older thread => Apple Silicon includes some performance observations: e.g. appears Rosetta 2 is ~28% slower running Intel code in emulation on Apple ARM. Also single core benchmarks show A13 Apple ARM performance being ~7% faster than a ninth generation Intel Core i9 (plus noticeably faster than ARM processors available for Android and Windows). 

Won't they be on A15 or so by the time the laptops get these new chips? 

July 2020 rumor has Apple Silicon Mac later this year (perhaps A14) => https://www.macrumors.com/2020/07/08/apple-arm-based-macs-thunderbolt-support/ with follow-up rumor => https://www.macrumors.com/2020/07/10/kuo-first-apple-silicon-13-inch-macbook-pro-2020/

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 289
Theo | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 19 2020 10:03 PM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):

Theo:

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):
 

Older thread => Apple Silicon includes some performance observations: e.g. appears Rosetta 2 is ~28% slower running Intel code in emulation on Apple ARM. Also single core benchmarks show A13 Apple ARM performance being ~7% faster than a ninth generation Intel Core i9 (plus noticeably faster than ARM processors available for Android and Windows). 

Won't they be on A15 or so by the time the laptops get these new chips? 

July 2020 rumor has Apple Silicon Mac later this year (perhaps A14) => https://www.macrumors.com/2020/07/08/apple-arm-based-macs-thunderbolt-support/ with follow-up rumor => https://www.macrumors.com/2020/07/10/kuo-first-apple-silicon-13-inch-macbook-pro-2020/

Keep Smiling Smile

And rumors are Apple will complete its transition that all its products will utilize Apple Silicon by year end 2022; thus, by then it is thought A15 would be available.

On the other side, where is Intel? They still are slowly rolling out 10nm chips. Apple hopes to be on 5 nm chips relatively soon following up with 3 nm on the heels.  If A13 is 7, then A 14 most likely is the 5? Then A15 might be 3 or 5 depending where they are at that time.   

Posts 27
Nick Stapleton | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 20 2020 8:00 AM

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):

JT (alabama24):
The Mac version is dependent upon windows technologies.

It's not, though.

The Windows application is dependent on Windows technologies; the macOS application is dependent on Apple technologies.

🔥😆

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 20 2020 11:30 AM

yeah, yeah. But anything from Microsoft is "windows technology" to me. Wink

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