Enough with the WordSearch brouhaha...I want what I paid for.

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Posted: Wed, Sep 23 2020 2:42 PM

I really must insist that FL honor its marketing spiel and create the requisite hyperlinks for the products in its current stable...and do it in a first come, first served manner. In other words, FL needs to PARK all of its WS hoopla and attend to matters that have been festering FOR DECADES. Specifically, I just opened up a JETS journal and encountered a footnote that cites the H. D. Betz Hermeneia Commentary on Galatians, a commentary I happen to own, and yet that citation is infuriatingly NOT HYPERLINKED. This is unacceptable, period. UNACCEPTABLE!!! I frankly don't care what series of events transpired to result in this condition, because this issue has been festering unabated for over a decade during which I (and others) have asked, cajoled, pleaded, and begged FL to attend to its remedy...all to no avail. This is not a matter of no consequence, not the least of which is the fact that FL MARKETS LOGOS SOFTWARE AS VALUABLE PRECISELY BECAUSE THE LOGOS RESOURCES ARE (supposedly) LINKED TOGETHER FOR MAXIMUM RESEARCH AND STUDY BENEFIT. And yet, all too often, that just isn't the case. This is no small matter since, for me as for others, the primary reason I own a Logos library of the size that I do (nearly 14,000 volumes), is BECAUSE MY LIBRARY IS SUPPOSED TO BE LINKED. There is no way I could read that many books even if I lived three lives. I didn't purchase these books to be read individually. I purchased them because they (according to FL marketing) provide instantaneous links that allow me to follow the citation and research threads of a given subject.

My Logos library is supposed to make study easier by automating much of the process. Right now, not only is that frequently not happening, but my Logos library at times is essentially lying to me. I have hundreds of books, maybe thousands, that I don't even know I own. For me that is by design, for the reasons already stated. I'm not intending to read all of them cover to cover; I'm rather expecting my library to alert me when a particular book I own is pertinent to the study I am presently engaged in. In the case of the Hermeneia Galatians volume, I happened to be aware that I owned that book and, if inclined, I can take the time to go to my library, type in the necessary info to call up the volume, open it and then navigate to the appropriate location as indicated by the citation...but that ordeal, which takes 30-100x as much time as a simple click of a hypertext link, can only happen IF I KNOW FOR CERTAIN THAT I DO IN FACT OWN THE BOOK MY LIBRARY IS DECEIVING ME INTO THINKING I DO NOT OWN. This is an absurd state of affairs!

And just to be clear, I PAID TO HAVE THE THING I AM DOING WITHOUT. I paid for hyperlinked resources...to the tune of TEN$ OF THOU$AND$ OF DOLLAR$. I (and everyone else who is a Logos customer) AM OWED WHAT I PAID FOR. I AM TIRED OF BEGGING FOR IT. I am at the point where I am considering a class action lawsuit to find a remedy that should have been forthcoming many years ago. Maybe FL needs to be forced to do an audit that requires them to identify any non-linked resources and provide refunds for them to their customer base. Or, FL can just do the right thing AND DEAL WITH THIS LONG ENDURED, ONGOING, FESTERING PROBLEM THAT MAKES THEIR MARKETING APPROACH OF OFFERING THAT WHICH THEY DO NOT PROVIDE ESSENTIALLY A SCAM.

It's time for this lingering issue to be resolved now.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 23 2020 2:58 PM

David, I know that you know Faithlife is continuing to update older resources to newer tagging standard as an ongoing process. We should be thankful that they do not charge us for the tagging that is beyond the resource as we purchased it. If you have resources just released by Faithlife that are lacking tagging, they are usually very prompt in correcting the issue. Yes, it is frustrating when an older resource lacks the tagging needed for one's immediate project ... but we know we live in an imperfect world bound by time. Much though Faithlife might want to have instant tag updating, they, too, find that tagging takes time and other resources. If their error rate in tagging becomes too high, it is worth a rant ... they have more control over that.


And  yes, David, my response is partially to your inflammatory language, use of capitals etc. - it's your style and certainly is appropriate. However, it is so far from the style in my region of the country that it evokes a response other than what you intend when thrown into the milieu of Scandinavian reticence.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 23 2020 6:06 PM

Just...fix...the...problem.

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 23 2020 6:50 PM

David Paul:

Just...fix...the...problem.

Well. It seems to me, the new WS resources aren't heavy-duty cross-referencing. So, in theory, FL is getting an expanded customer base, with limited cross-referencing pressure ... supports your goal concerning improving the current spotty referencing. If FL went that direction.

But not likely.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

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abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 23 2020 7:10 PM

Some things never change. :(

I feel like FL is doing a decent job. Rants like this are better sent as emails to customer service.

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Posts 887
David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 23 2020 7:36 PM

I've occasionally noticed things that could have been links but weren't for whatever reason, or were tied to a specific version of the resources. I assume the sheer size of the resources (I personally have close to 8500) they have to keep rechecking as new works are added has got to be pretty difficult.

So, yes, I would love for this to be resolved. But I have no idea how much work it will realistically take. I've occasionally pointed out problems and sometimes they've confirmed and corrected them. Maybe that's part of it?

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 23 2020 7:37 PM

I have no idea how automated or not the link creation process is--it probably varies depending on whatzits. But seeing as there is an obligation to paying customers to resolve and complete this process, putting a few warm bodies on the project shouldn't break the bank. I would think that even interns could get the job done. Also, I don't for a second accept that the argument of "it's always been that way" is acceptable, the notion being, as MJ intimated, that "we supposedly purchased those resources in that less than desirable condition". Let me be clear: I NEVER perceived that I was buying Logos resources that were not linked, and I've been a customer since the mid-90s. Plain and simple, this problem still persists because IT IS NOT PERCEIVED TO BE A PRESSING NOR URGENT ISSUE within the decision-making apparatus at FL. As a paying customer, I find that offensive...and potentially actionable. And I'm not just any customer, but one who has certainly spent enough to put me into the top quartile if not top tenth of customers. In years past, I had a CS rep who told me he would put any other customer on hold to take my call even though I told him it wasn't necessary. The point is, though, that what I'm objecting to doesn't only affect me; it affects ALL CUSTOMERS, even the brand new ones who are just now getting swept up into the FL sphere of influence. If you are reading this thread, this issue affects you.

At this point, since I think we are approaching the point where patience is not only exhausted but obscene, I think it is probably a good idea that FL creates a listing of all resources known to lack adequate hyperlinking and thereafter create a once or twice monthly update of which resources have been removed from the list as completed. This list could then be audited by the community for both inclusiveness (in case needful resources are not included) and thoroughness (checking to make sure that removed resources are satisfactorily completed). This problem has dragged on for at least 20 years and so it needs to be explicitly and expeditiously attended to ASAP.

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 23 2020 7:42 PM

abondservant:

Some things never change. :(

Correct you are...like missing hyperlinks that have never been activated for over 20 years.

abondservant:

I feel like FL is doing a decent job. Rants like this are better sent as emails to customer service.

If I was speaking about an issue that only affects me, then an email or phone call would suffice. This issue affects ALL Logos users.

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 24 2020 1:11 AM

David Wanat:

I've occasionally noticed things that could have been links but weren't for whatever reason, or were tied to a specific version of the resources. I assume the sheer size of the resources (I personally have close to 8500) they have to keep rechecking as new works are added has got to be pretty difficult.

So, yes, I would love for this to be resolved. But I have no idea how much work it will realistically take. I've occasionally pointed out problems and sometimes they've confirmed and corrected them. Maybe that's part of it?

I think fixing typos is a different process than adding links. Regardless, I made a suggestion about a decade ago regarding link creation that I think makes a lot of sense, but I have no idea if they implemented it. Back then (and still now?) when a new resource got added to Logos that had citations from resources that were already in Logos, those citation links had to be created and added to all of the older Logos resources. In other words, when book B got added to Logos, any citations of B that existed in book A were dead because they hadn't been created since book B wasn't in Logos when book A was processed and the links added. My recommendation was that Logos should create every possible link in every newly added resource, even if some of those links were for books that were not in Logos at that time. Then, if that book gets added to Logos at a later date, the "receiving" link would get created and all of the previously created "sending" links could automatically match up and talk to each other. It's a simple matter of matching addresses. Creating viable links for future resources shouldn't be a big deal, but doing it up front saves all of the hassle of having to backtrack and create those links later (which, let's be honest, is not ever going to be a top priority precisely because it's considered "back"-tracking, and going backward isn't naturally associated with making progress--it's just a psychological glitch that humans have).

Like I said, I have no idea how FL handles making new links in new resources, and I don't really care as long as everything it gets done. But the one thing I absolutely do care about is that the "old", "tired", "tedious", "annoying", "back-tracking" links also GET DONE...and, psychological glitch or not, they need to get done NOW.

Posts 22
Rene Atchley | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 24 2020 1:47 AM

Well one could go down the rabbit hole of problems with Logos...which seem numerous in program implementation.  Yet I would ask the questions about user concerns in a different way.  When the core product is constantly supplemated, in pursuit of profit, with multiple other lines of  products (i.e. dating services, secular products, TV channels, purchasing marketing share, endless marketing) how can the core product be maximized for usability?  Perhaps business is truly what leaders says its about....making money.  

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 24 2020 1:52 AM

 Sum for the number of resources missing links l(ink type X number of links) X (human time required per link + electronic resources time required per link) = total amount of time required which then must be limited by the maximum available human time and the maximum available electronic resource time with overhead accounted for. The only variables that Faithlife controls is the available time - human and electronic which is limited primarily by financial constraints. As my Dad used to say "I'm from Missouri 'Show me'" ... show me a viable business plan that meets your demands.

Personally I am more concerned with Logos providing incorrect information than I am about the extra effort required by missing coding. I suspect I am in the minority on that and that you are in the majority.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 24 2020 5:03 AM

MJ. Smith:
Personally I am more concerned with Logos providing incorrect information than I am about the extra effort required by missing coding. I suspect I am in the minority on that and that you are in the majority.

I would say incorrect information is perhaps not so much a concern for people because it is hard to know if information is accurate or not.  We just expect it to be accurate.  I agree with you that incorrect information is a major concern.  But we are paying for coding as well.  When a business gets successful, often (not always) quality starts to diminish.  Hopefully Faithlife will keep quality as a priority.

Posts 20
Alan Lamb | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 24 2020 5:25 AM

I don't think that is going to happen or get better, they are still converting my Wordsearch books, and already errors and issues are popping up. Pretty much the saem one when I used earlier iterations of Logos. But I feel your pain, too many will chime in here because they don't experience the problems, to praise the software... but the day will come for them when they have problems as well. 

I'll just stick with WSB until it dies or find another bible software company or just start buying Kindle books and go back to to the figurative ebooks spread on out on the desk as I work. 

Posts 81
scooter | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 24 2020 6:08 AM

This inadequate response to Mr. Paul's concerns can only be fixed if the biz owners want to do so.  And they do not.  Or they already would be in process.  Sad, isn't it??

Posts 81
Thomas Myers | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 24 2020 6:17 AM

David is there anything else we can be praying for you?

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abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 24 2020 6:51 AM

MJ. Smith:


And  yes, David, my response is partially to your inflammatory language, use of capitals etc. - it's your style and certainly is appropriate. However, it is so far from the style in my region of the country that it evokes a response other than what you intend



That's a gracious Colossians 4 way of putting it MJ. Thank you for expressing this in a way I could not. 

It evokes something bordering hostility in me. 

The way I look at the tagging situation is this: When I bought my first 3.5" floppy with Logos, they were only tagging a few things. By logos 4 they were tagging a lot more things. By logos 8 they are tagging scores of things. 

By logos 12 it will be scores upon scores of things. Like an encyclopedia, there are always new things being discovered, and so by the time its published its out of date in some ways. Its one of those jobs when done right that is never really complete. 

I'm just grateful that its always improving. :) Downloaded a book today that has had some new tagging added, I was grateful :)

L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, L9

Posts 22
Rene Atchley | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 24 2020 6:58 AM

Perhaps the question then is Logos, in whatever form, done right when a person spends thousands of dollars on a product and significant parts don't work.  After all the Pinto was done right in many ways...it just had an itty bitty problem.  Personally I have about $1500 wrapped up in this beast over 25 years but I still would use any possible alternative (which I have tried many that died) that actually functioned in the way I wanted it to...Satan shoveling ice from his driveway time perhaps.

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SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 24 2020 7:35 AM

I am unaware of any resources in my library that should have hyperlinks to other resources but don't. It is my expectation that resources produced prior to whatever I buy will be linked to, and that all else in terms of hyperlinks is icing on the cake.

“God watches over the affairs of those who truly love him without their worrying about them.” - St. John of the Cross

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David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 24 2020 7:44 AM

SineNomine:

I am unaware of any resources in my library that should have hyperlinks to other resources but don't. It is my expectation that resources produced prior to whatever I buy will be linked to, and that all else in terms of hyperlinks is icing on the cake.

I think the Catechism of the Catholic Church has several references to other resources that Logos has, but are not linked.

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SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 24 2020 7:54 AM

David Wanat:

SineNomine:

I am unaware of any resources in my library that should have hyperlinks to other resources but don't. It is my expectation that resources produced prior to whatever I buy will be linked to, and that all else in terms of hyperlinks is icing on the cake.

I think the Catechism of the Catholic Church has several references to other resources that Logos has, but are not linked.

That would not surprise me. But were they in the system when the CCC was produced? If not... to me, they're icing. Mind you, I do like icing.

“God watches over the affairs of those who truly love him without their worrying about them.” - St. John of the Cross

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