Logos 9

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Rene Atchley | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 22 2020 10:49 AM

If the coding dept. was as determined as the marketing dept. issues with initial releases wouldn't exist....although trying out beta ware at slightly discounted prices can be entertaining...Geeked

Posts 926
David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 22 2020 10:52 AM

Rene Atchley:

If the coding dept. was as determined as the marketing dept. issues with initial releases wouldn't exist....although trying out beta ware at slightly discounted prices can be entertaining...Geeked

I think you just described software in general.

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Verbum 9 Ultimate

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abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 22 2020 10:57 AM

Denise:

abondservant:
I started with L2... I loved L2. L3 confused and aggravated me. I didn't use it more than a handful of times between the release of 3 and the release of 4.

Oh my ... Libby is super-wound-up. "How could ANYONE say such a thing?!"  But I was surprised MJ found Libby to be a pain (I think).  I liked Libby because she showed under-the-hood goings-on. Indeed, using L7, it's still quicker to ask Libby (about connections). Granted, Libby's search prowess is embarrassing.

Well, maybe a new layout will calm Libby down. Ha.



haha :)

I figured my comment about L3 would bring you out of the woodwork :). 

I haven't tried to install L3 on anything in a long long long time. So I can't speak to fastness for it, but most of the searches since L7 have been near instant on my desktop. Even result heavy searches like search for every instance of the word "the". Give Libby a hug, no offence was intended to her. A lot of people saw her as a faithful friend for a long time. 

8 was a remarkable improvement in that regard. Things that took 90-120 seconds on 7 (on the same machine) took 2-4 seconds on 8. Indexing went from ~20+/- hours, to 3+/-. 

I think part of the disconnect for some people is that FL focuses on improving XYZ for a given launch, and with tens of thousands of forum users, people expect some random set of letters from A-Z to get the focus. 

Gotta take what we get for what its worth. 8 was about improving performance. That was probably the biggest gripe on the forum in 2017... every single day. So they fixed it. 8 ran better on all of my machines, than 7 did. by a wide margin. 

Notes were another thing a lot of people were clamoring for. I still don't use notes much. I don't write notes in my bible either. Nor do I journal. I'm probably missing out on something. But its just never been a thing that I did. so I can't speak to that aspect. 






L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, L9

Posts 1394
Myke Harbuck | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 22 2020 11:16 AM

Rene Atchley:

If the coding dept. was as determined as the marketing dept. issues with initial releases wouldn't exist....although trying out beta ware at slightly discounted prices can be entertaining...Geeked

I get what you're saying and understand your sentiment, but I would like to suggest an alternate way of looking at this:

If [the powers that allocate resources (IE: human, financial, project management resources) and control release timing (IE: the decision makers who decide that it's time to capture some return on those resource investments) for] the coding dept. was as determined as the marketing dept. issues with initial releases wouldn't exist might be less existent.

The programmers who are the boots on the ground for the L9 project are likely among the most "determined" employees FL has. They can only do so much with a wish list that is a mile long and existing software limitations, coupled with staffing limitations, overtime policies, etc. Yet no matter how much they do or how many features or enhancements are deployed, the old adage "You just can't please everyone" still applies. FL could spend MILLION$ more on the L9 project, and those who have a bent towards complaining and griping will still....well, complain and gripe the moment it is released!

So there comes a time when the decision must be made and the release must be launched, or eventually there will be a point at which there are simply no financial resources left with which to fund any further developments (and then we have another WordSearch scenario on our hands!). Releases, no matter how imperfect they may be, raise needed working capital that allows these determined programmers and project managers to add more oil to the machine, thus making things run smoother and smoother as time goes on.

Myke Harbuck
Lead Pastor, www.ByronCity.Church
Adjunct Professor, Georgia Military College

Posts 4122
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 22 2020 11:20 AM

DIsciple II:

Wow resorting to children’s rhymes now,  just when I thought I’d seen it all on these forums from FL fan boys. 



Not a fanboy here, though I aired out my issues quite publicly here in the forum 2018-2019 ish. Some Issues were repaired as much as they could be. For some Issues the silence from FL said "Deal with it". So I have. Mostly. 

I still can't scroll past a post about someones favorite sales person without being reminded, and sometimes commenting about how everyone I'd ever talked to at FL had been laid off at the same time. Friends, sales people, etc... Still an unpleasant thing for me, and don't ask about my next sales person either. He (among other things) was gossiping about me to other logosians, and I fired him as my sales person. there were other things too... But I digress. Or I could (and sometimes still do) bring up the PBB store, a thing that was promised to me when I bought my first L4 base package - the sales person said (going from memory here) "I can't officially say this, but, in the next few weeks, an update is coming that will allow you to make, share, trade, and sell PBB's with the logos community". It was a pretty big selling point, and it just flat out wasn't true for years, and remains (for various solid and understandable reasons) only half true today. Marketing and communication issues indeed.

I'm fairly critical where and when I feel I need to be. I want to be equally quick to praise them where they have done something well. 

The software - for me - has rarely been a reason I was upset/annoyed/aggravated/whatever you want to call it, with faithlife. I understand thats not the case for you. But I don't understand your reasoning on why the software was terrible at the launch. Maybe we just don't use the same features the same way.
Like this photo. 
 
I think also there is some cultural communication issues going on. Are you perhaps from the northern or north eastern united states? I notice some patterns that you share with that geographic region. Or perhaps a Germanic culture (Switzerland, or Germany, etc) or another "cold" culture. Being from a somewhat "warm" culture (as warm as it gets in the usa), some of those patterns come across differently than they might in your home culture. 

L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, L9

Posts 4122
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 22 2020 11:26 AM

Myke Harbuck:

If [the powers that allocate resources (IE: human, financial, project management resources) and control release timing (IE: the decision makers who decide that it's time to capture some return on those resource investments) for] the coding dept. was as determined as the marketing dept. issues with initial releases wouldn't exist might be less existent.

(...)

So there comes a time when the decision must be made and the release must be launched, or eventually there will be a point at which there are simply no financial resources left with which to fund any further developments 



My (now deceased) uncle had ten rules for business. He owned a lot of different businesses. Catalogs, elements of Disney's merchandising side, Christian bookstore chains, and so on. Any way, one of his ten rules for business lined up with what you say here - better to release a product when expected, than as expected. He said they were all based on his own personal failures in business. I responded to him, but wouldn't it be better still to release the product as expected AND when expected? His response was "unquestionably, but in life you often don't have that luxury". 


L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, L9

Posts 32
Rene Atchley | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 22 2020 11:49 AM

Myke Harbuck:

Rene Atchley:

If the coding dept. was as determined as the marketing dept. issues with initial releases wouldn't exist....although trying out beta ware at slightly discounted prices can be entertaining...Geeked

I get what you're saying and understand your sentiment, but I would like to suggest an alternate way of looking at this:

If [the powers that allocate resources (IE: human, financial, project management resources) and control release timing (IE: the decision makers who decide that it's time to capture some return on those resource investments) for] the coding dept. was as determined as the marketing dept. issues with initial releases wouldn't exist might be less existent.

The programmers who are the boots on the ground for the L9 project are likely among the most "determined" employees FL has. They can only do so much with a wish list that is a mile long and existing software limitations, coupled with staffing limitations, overtime policies, etc. Yet no matter how much they do or how many features or enhancements are deployed, the old adage "You just can't please everyone" still applies. FL could spend MILLION$ more on the L9 project, and those who have a bent towards complaining and griping will still....well, complain and gripe the moment it is released!

So there comes a time when the decision must be made and the release must be launched, or eventually there will be a point at which there are simply no financial resources left with which to fund any further developments (and then we have another WordSearch scenario on our hands!). Releases, no matter how imperfect they may be, raise needed working capital that allows these determined programmers and project managers to add more oil to the machine, thus making things run smoother and smoother as time goes on.

On one hand I recognize that, in essence, software is never quite finished particularly after using various shades of Microsoft software.  However, I remember almost endless discussion on these forums on how I am suppose to take into consideration this or that factor that limits FL to produce a product that matches the marketing enthusiasm to sell me more and more product.  FL limitations, or excuses, don't interest me as a consumer just the prices and quality of product the company wants me to spend my money on.

Posts 5505
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 22 2020 1:39 PM

Not from USA or Canada. nor a Germanic country though I do have some German heritage going back three generations mixed with some English going back two generations, some Irish three generations and my Father was born in Scotland and well Scots are never ones to back down. But me with those mix of cultures that I am aware of and possibly more I don’t know going further back where else could I be from but the Great Southern Land of Australia.

All software has a level of usability but Logos 8.0 failed in its first impression. The very first thing you saw, the very first impression you got of the software was a broken home page. If there is one thing a software development team should make sure they get right it’s the first impression a user gets when then encounter the software, particularly when what you changed was not broken to start with. If there is one aspect of Logos 8 I could change it would be the home page. it is awful in appearance on a large wide screen format with huge white margins and then then filled with what looks like collector cards you used to buy with bubblegum as a kid with pictures of cricketers or rugby league players or for those in the USA baseball or gridion players, or the ones you used to find in your cereal box.  Give me back the Logos 7 home page any day.

But the big thing is that FL marked Logos 8 knowing the home page was not functional, the code was incomplete and that notes was not complete yet kept their mouth shut on these things and waited till users complained about all the bugs before admitting they knew the software was not ready. And this failing lays at the feet of the company leadership because they should have a handle on this and they should above all desire to ensure when a customer purchases software from them they are fully informed of what is not yet ready for market, what could not meet completion in the time frame allotted and what the overall plan is to complete those things - specific dates don’t have to be given. I sincerely believe the developers worked above and beyond with the resources and time and with good intention. it’s those setting the agenda for Logos 9 that need to not repeat the same mistakes made with Logos 8.

Posts 2662
mab | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 22 2020 3:08 PM

abondservant:
Any way, one of his ten rules for business lined up with what you say here - better to release a product when expected, than as expected. He said they were all based on his own personal failures in business. I responded to him, but wouldn't it be better still to release the product as expected AND when expected? His response was "unquestionably, but in life you often don't have that luxury". 

Exactly right. If we were ever judged on how well we communicate the greatest of messages so imperfectly, we might never preach at all. We would all be like Moses and say send someone else.

The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter

Posts 5505
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 22 2020 3:45 PM

There is a huge difference between mis-communicating a message and choosing to withhold what you know to be true because it does not support the narrative you want to present.

mab:

abondservant:
Any way, one of his ten rules for business lined up with what you say here - better to release a product when expected, than as expected. He said they were all based on his own personal failures in business. I responded to him, but wouldn't it be better still to release the product as expected AND when expected? His response was "unquestionably, but in life you often don't have that luxury". 

Exactly right. If we were ever judged on how well we communicate the greatest of messages so imperfectly, we might never preach at all. We would all be like Moses and say send someone else.

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 22 2020 4:57 PM

DIsciple II:
 If I had wanted to stay on Logos 7 and get updates for that then your suggestion would not helper because as soon as I ran an update the software would have upgraded me to 8 rather than pick up the update for 7 because I am a connect subscriber.

Suggestion came from experience on a MacBook Air (with my Faithlife Connect subscription). Setting Update Channel to Manual effectively turns off program updating. Manual channel does not exist on Faithlife servers so an installed Logos/Verbum cannot find a newer software release (while having Use Internet set to Yes so could download new resources). Caveat: Manual software update has a crash risk because some new resources need software changes so trying to index/use new resource(s) with outdated software can cause sudden software disappearance.

FYI: MacBook Air was a shared family resource that was used by one person at a time with their own macOS user account & Faithlife account. Changing Update Channel to Manual in all installations allowed application bundles to be installed once, which could be used by different users. Prior to manually updating Logos OR Verbum application, personally verified that no family member had their installation running.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 5505
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 22 2020 5:05 PM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):
Caveat: Manual software update has a crash risk because some new resources need software changes so trying to index/use new resource(s) with outdated software can cause sudden software disappearance.

Funny that because FL employee said above all new resources are backwards compatiable while the prior version is still being supported so are you refering to after support was withrdawn or while it was still being supported ?

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 22 2020 5:09 PM

I <think> KS4J is saying that there is a crash risk because when the user does manual updates, he/she may not be keeping up with those updates appropriately. When that happens, a mismatch may occur. 

macOS, iOS & iPadOS | Logs |  Install

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 22 2020 5:17 PM

DIsciple II:

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):
Caveat: Manual software update has a crash risk because some new resources need software changes so trying to index/use new resource(s) with outdated software can cause sudden software disappearance.

Funny that because FL employee said above all new resources are backwards compatiable while the prior version is still being supported so are you refering to after support was withrdawn or while it was still being supported ?

Logos 7.19 SR-1 (released on 23 May 2019) included addition of some new resource types, which were not in Logos 7.19 stable release on 25 Oct 2018 so Manual Update that had initial Logos 7.19 installed or older release has crash risk for new resource types that need Logos 7.19 SR-1 (or newer than Logos 8.4 SR-1 that was released on 2 May 2019).

JT (alabama24):

I <think> KS4J is saying that there is a crash risk because when the user does manual updates, he/she may not be keeping up with those updates appropriately. When that happens, a mismatch may occur. 

Concur mismatch of older software release and new resource has crash risk (remembering some threads where software update was needed)

Keep Smiling Smile

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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 22 2020 5:23 PM

DIsciple II:
Funny that because FL employee said above all new resources are backwards compatiable while the prior version is still being supported

I think this is the quote you're thinking of:

Adam Borries (Faithlife):
A "Maintenance" version of Logos falls under the category of "supported," and will continue to get updates to use newly published books. 

It's not that the resources are backwards compatible, but the prior version gets updates to support newly published books.

Keeping your Logos 8 software updated should allow it to recognize and support any newly published book that Logos 9 supports.

Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!

Posts 5505
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 22 2020 5:33 PM

PetahChristian:

DIsciple II:
Funny that because FL employee said above all new resources are backwards compatiable while the prior version is still being supported

I think this is the quote you're thinking of:

Adam Borries (Faithlife):
A "Maintenance" version of Logos falls under the category of "supported," and will continue to get updates to use newly published books. 

It's not that the resources are backwards compatible, but the prior version gets updates to support newly published books.

As long as you keep your Logos 8 software updated, it should be able to recognize and support any newly published book that Logos 9 supports.

Your saying the same thing i said just with different wording but yes this is what I was refering to but all that said it moot because my experince was that as connect subscriber I was pushe onto 8 without a choice, the upload downloaded automatically, my notes were forced onto the new system automatically and even if that were not the case and I stayed on 7 the mobile app was converted over to the new note system and so I would have been in a position of two separate note systems on different platforms that didn't play together as FL says they do.... And more my point all along has been FL not being upfront with there narrative about what they were actually releasing in the 8.0 product because despite them knowing they were releasing a broken product that was not intially as funcitonal in some areas as it was in version 7. That is the real issue here and the issue I want avoided with Logos 9.  Be truthful as you release Logos 9 about what is not ready. Inform the cusotmer exacty what they are getting not on what you plan to give them in 3 months time or 6 months time, what you are gving them now. It's pretty simple and a pretty reasonable expectation to have of a company that says its serving the church and christian community.

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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 22 2020 5:41 PM

DIsciple II:
all that said it moot because my experince was that as connect subscriber I was pushe onto 8 without a choice

As previously mentioned, you can change your update channel from "stable" to (a non-existent channel such as) "manual" to prevent any software updates at all.

If you pre-emptively do this before Logos 9 comes out, you will never automatically be updated to Logos 9.

  • The full command you would type in the command box is set update channel to manual
  • To return to automatically getting software updates, use set update channel to stable

Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!

Posts 5505
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 22 2020 6:15 PM

That does not fix the bigger picture issue of FL and the narrative they tell versus the reality of what they deliver.  If FL talk matched their actions I would have a lot less to say.  Users should not have to juggke update channels manually. FL should simply be open and honest upfront about what they are actually delivering.


PetahChristian:

DIsciple II:
all that said it moot because my experince was that as connect subscriber I was pushe onto 8 without a choice

As previously mentioned, you can change your update channel from "stable" to (a non-existent channel such as) "manual" to prevent any software updates at all.

If you pre-emptively do this before Logos 9 comes out, you will never automatically be updated to Logos 9.

  • The full command you would type in the command box is set update channel to manual
  • To return to automatically getting software updates, use set update channel to stable

Posts 45
Pastor Josh Monda | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 24 2020 11:33 AM

Well judging from today's announcement looks like I made the right choice and logos 9 will be released Monday. 

Posts 1024
Armin | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 24 2020 11:38 PM

josh monda:

Well judging from today's announcement looks like I made the right choice and logos 9 will be released Monday. 

I hope this is not only an announcement with a demo but a proper release. Can't wait any longer for Logos 9!

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