Did Denominational Tags Make it into L9?

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This post has 39 Replies | 3 Followers

Posts 4465
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 28 2020 7:50 PM

Sean Boisen:
But for more modern conversion examples, we'll probably assign both denominations rather than try to find a line where e.g. an Evangelical became a Catholic.

Ah, well, if you can assign multiple denominations... Newman should definitely not only be listed as Catholic, but also as Anglican.

“God watches over the affairs of those who truly love him without their worrying about them.” - St. John of the Cross

Posts 2375
LogosEmployee

Rosie Perera:
It's a good thing I'm not an author

Actually... I'm pretty sure you ended up in the author data at some point for some particular reason. Didn't you contribute some data at some point that for a while showed up as an attribution or something? Or am I thinking of someone else? At any rate, you show up in Factbook! Although you don't appear to currently have any works associated with you, and there isn't any other actual data...

Posts 900
LogosEmployee
Sean Boisen | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 28 2020 9:35 PM

Andrew Batishko (Faithlife):

Rosie Perera:
It's a good thing I'm not an author

Actually... I'm pretty sure you ended up in the author data at some point for some particular reason. Didn't you contribute some data at some point that for a while showed up as an attribution or something? Or am I thinking of someone else? At any rate, you show up in Factbook! Although you don't appear to currently have any works associated with you, and there isn't any other actual data...

I couldn't find any works, or find you in the Author data, Rosie: but it's never too late!

Posts 30240
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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 28 2020 9:57 PM

Ken McGuire:
In many ways he had been Eastern leaning for his whole career.

Quite true but in much the same way as Dominicans think of themselves as Eastward leaning ... and since my parish for 45 years was Dominican ...

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 29 2020 1:10 AM

Andrew Batishko (Faithlife):
Actually... I'm pretty sure you ended up in the author data at some point for some particular reason. Didn't you contribute some data at some point that for a while showed up as an attribution or something? Or am I thinking of someone else?

For reference - this was discussed at https://community.logos.com/forums/t/186416.aspx 

Posts 1535
Blair Laird | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 29 2020 7:57 AM

Rosie Perera:
It's a good thing I'm not an author, because I've gone through at least four denominations in my lifetime: was baptized in an Episcopalian church, raised in a Congregational church, made my first adult decision to join a church in a Presbyterian church, attended a transdenominational seminary with Baptists, Anglicans, Pentecostals, Presbyterians, Reformed leaning Catholic, Christian & Missionary Alliance, and a Mennonite on the faculty (and probably others I'm forgetting), and am now a Mennonite/Anabaptist with an appreciation for the good things that many other traditions have contributed to my ecumenical faith. I think it's important to be deeply rooted and grounded in one particular tradition that you worship in, but be able to dialogue freely with and learn from others, and not necessarily limit your viewpoints to just the statement of faith of your particular denomination.


My goodness, what an experience.. that is awesome.. you certainly bring a lot to the table as far as ecumenical dialogue. I was raised as a Mormon until I was a teenager, fell away then joined a bapticostal non-denominational church who was sort of anti reformed theology. It was kinda difficult for me because I was learning theology through reformed resources and taking classes from rts :) About a year ago I converted over to Greek Orthodoxy. The Mennonites seem to be a fascinating group. I have been running a dialogue group between Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants for the past few years so that has afforded me the opportunity to learn more about other faiths in a better way than just reading. I totally agree with your sentiment of being deeply rooted but being able to dialogue freely with others. I attended an oneness pentecostal service last night because their church is right next door to me. The pastor knows I am Greek Orthodox but I told him our differences won't change the fact that I desire to be a good neighbor. I also want to make myself available for anyone who has questions ;) I get to brush up on the Father's writings on Modal Monarchianism. Perhaps there will be an opportunity for a formal debate if one of their elders come down :)

Posts 1750
Ken McGuire | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 29 2020 11:45 AM

Blair Laird:
I get to brush up on the Father's writings on Modal Monarchianism.

I wasn't aware this was ever a particular concern in the East. Of course, there are lots of Western fathers who wrote extensively on it, and the great Eastern writings on the doctrine of God are clearly in no way modalist, and in many ways it may be both a more effective argument and being a better neighbor to talk about how the wonderful things on the doctrine of God from the Eastern Fathers instead of going into attack mode with Tertullian...

The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann

L8 Anglican, Lutheran and Orthodox Silver, Reformed Starter, Academic Essentials

L7 Lutheran Gold, Anglican Bronze

Posts 4112
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 29 2020 11:50 AM

I found my given name in there too.

Maybe from when I was going to write for the academic blog? or something along those lines.

I MAY be in there for writing a book one day too. who knows :)

L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, L9

Posts 1535
Blair Laird | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 29 2020 7:33 PM

Ken McGuire:

Blair Laird:
I get to brush up on the Father's writings on Modal Monarchianism.

I wasn't aware this was ever a particular concern in the East. Of course, there are lots of Western fathers who wrote extensively on it, and the great Eastern writings on the doctrine of God are clearly in no way modalist, and in many ways it may be both a more effective argument and being a better neighbor to talk about how the wonderful things on the doctrine of God from the Eastern Fathers instead of going into attack mode with Tertullian...

I think being a good neighbor is first a foremost for sure. I had an elder asking me some questions last night and challenging my position. I chose not to get too deep into the weeds. He started off by claiming they were different because they were baptized in the name of Jesus and believed in one God. I quickly responded that we are baptized in the name of Jesus as well and we also believe in one God. He did not seem to think what I said was true but I left it at that and told him to verify it. I believe he thought because I was Trinitarian that I was a polytheist. The difference between me and them is not the number of Gods but persons. We are not baptized in Jesus' name alone either.  Anyhow, I think I should be prepared in case I get pushed into a corner. Defensive measure 😁

Posts 776
Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 15 2020 5:33 AM

Hi Blair:

Very interesting subject. 

In your opinion what are some of the best resources in L9 to "to brush up on the Father's writings on Modal Monarchianism", and the concept itself?

Not trying to violate guidelines, but to share, I found very interesting information.

At one point it seems that Ireneaus thought that "Jesus and the Holy Spirit were like the arms (or hands) of God that He used to bring believers close to His heart" [very rough paraphrase, and have been unable to find the source of it again].

It makes me think that if such is the case, then inherent members of God (not different modern term persons) is that which we perceive as Hypostasis.

What makes all this more interesting, is that originally, Hypostasis when needed to be translated to Latin, the word used was Personae (meaning the mask that an actor wore).

Seems that Tertullian was not very convinced, but since Jesus is the image of God, he agreed.

I was baffled because one old trinity definition (that I agree with) was: Love relation between Divine Substantive Realities (hypostasis), and all of a sudden somewhere, somehow Personae turned into modern Person concept.

Talking to a Reformed acquaintance, he told me that he believes it was Athanasius the one that changed the trinity definition to include modern concept person in it instead of the original Personae (mask worn by actor) one.

Do you know of any resources in L9 that go in deep into all of this?

Thanks ahead of time for input.

Posts 1750
Ken McGuire | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 15 2020 1:14 PM

As I suggested, the actual debate about Modal Monarchianism was a debate in the Latin church. That said, the Greek church wrote extensively on the Doctrine of God, and their discussion of it certainly sheds light on the topic.

For Brief flavor:

Gregory of Nyssa, On "Not Three Gods"

Basil, Letters 8 and 38, Many scholars will argue that Letter 8's theology is more developed that Basil actually went himself elsewhere and is inauthentic, but it is still a good summary of Orthodox teaching on God.

More extensive:

Athanasius, On the Incarnation of the Word.

Basil, Against Eunomius. - Important for understanding how the terminology was not meant to limit the divine mystery.

Basil, On the Holy Spirit.

Gregory Nazianzus, Theological Orations.

John of Damascus, The Orthodox Faith, Book 1.

The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann

L8 Anglican, Lutheran and Orthodox Silver, Reformed Starter, Academic Essentials

L7 Lutheran Gold, Anglican Bronze

Posts 4465
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 15 2020 3:46 PM

Hamilton Ramos:
Do you know of any resources in L9 that go in deep into all of this?

I reliably recommend https://ref.ly/logosres/trntynntrdtrngd on the subject of the Trinity. 

“God watches over the affairs of those who truly love him without their worrying about them.” - St. John of the Cross

Posts 776
Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 15 2020 6:14 PM

Hi SineNomine:

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are really distinct: they are three hypostases or persons; each exists or subsists in a proper manner

 Emery, G. (2011). The Trinity: An Introduction to Catholic Doctrine on the Triune God. (M. Levering & T. J. White, Eds., M. Levering, Trans.) (Vol. 1, p. 83). Washington, D.C.: The Catholic University of America Press.

I thought the reason why the perceived Divine Substantive Realities were named Hypostases, was precisely because it was incorrect to apply anthropomorphism to God.

God is not a Being that we have experience of what the particularities are because we are not Him.

To say God is a Person is precisely what we should not do, because He is more than that, He is the creator of Persons. Our contextual experience as living beings does not permit us to know for sure what being God is like.

We perceive Divine Substantive Realities that (to our limited perceptual capacity) seem to be persons, but obviously are not:

The Holy Spirit is one, but is atop millions of believers guiding and helping each. Hardly a person, but perfectly a Divine Substantive Reality.

And is that mystery what I think Blair is talking about.

From what I understand Hypostases does not equal person.

As some critics would say, It seems that an uninspired person (Athanasius) made Hypostases equal to person, violating the original intent of the Hypostases concept.

Is there a L9 resource that goes into deep about the definition of "person" in the trinity definition?

Posts 1535
Blair Laird | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 15 2020 6:16 PM

Hi Hamilton Ramos, 
I sent you a message through faithlife.com with my contact info so we can go more in depth. Thanks for responding to this thread 

Posts 19083
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 15 2020 6:35 PM

Andrew Batishko (Faithlife):

Rosie Perera:
It's a good thing I'm not an author

Actually... I'm pretty sure you ended up in the author data at some point for some particular reason. Didn't you contribute some data at some point that for a while showed up as an attribution or something? Or am I thinking of someone else? At any rate, you show up in Factbook! Although you don't appear to currently have any works associated with you, and there isn't any other actual data...

Wow! I'm in Factbook?! Cool. Maybe it's because I'm the photographer who took this photo of Eugene Peterson (and another one of Peter Harris) in an article in Christianity Today in 2011 (vol 55, no. 1).

But this is weird...a BUG: It says it finds 12 Factbook entries for me. But 11 of those entries it found (even using my name in quotation marks) are for people that had either Rosie or Perera as part of their name.

Also, why is the font size so much smaller in the Factbook than in the Search results?

Posts 4465
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 15 2020 7:12 PM

Hamilton Ramos:
Is there a L9 resource that goes into deep about the definition of "person" in the trinity definition?

Yes. https://ref.ly/logosres/trntynntrdtrngd?ref=Page.p+83 (Same book: I suggest you read all of chapter four, the first page of which you quoted from. As you know, that chapter is called "Three 'Persons' or 'Hypostases'".)

“God watches over the affairs of those who truly love him without their worrying about them.” - St. John of the Cross

Posts 2375
LogosEmployee

Rosie Perera:
It says it finds 12 Factbook entries for me. But 11 of those entries it found (even using my name in quotation marks) are for people that had either Rosie or Perera as part of their name.

This is not a bug. The Factbook autocomplete does its best to find near matches. It's much more "fuzzy" than our other autocomplete searches.

Rosie Perera:
Also, why is the font size so much smaller in the Factbook than in the Search results?

They look the same on my machine. Perhaps you changed the panel's font size in either the Search or Factbook panel.

Posts 19083
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 15 2020 8:16 PM

Andrew Batishko (Faithlife):

Rosie Perera:
Also, why is the font size so much smaller in the Factbook than in the Search results?

They look the same on my machine. Perhaps you changed the panel's font size in either the Search or Factbook panel.

Ah yes, that was it. I'd forgotten that you could change the font size in panels that weren't resources. I must have done that in the Search panel at some point.

Posts 776
Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 16 2020 3:24 AM

Ok Blair.

Posts 776
Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 16 2020 3:33 AM

Yes SineNomine, I will read, thanks for sharing it.

I found a promising book also:

https://www.logos.com/product/17537/person-grace-and-god

I also found some information. It seems that Boethius was the one giving a definition of person.

For a person, according to the classical definition of Boëthius, is nothing else than an individual substance of a rational nature, ‘persona est rationalis naturae individua substantia’. Nor is it to be wondered at that the subsistence of a being endowed with reason should enjoy the privilege of a special name: it is a free agent, and master of its own actions and responsible author of its own destiny; it is the sole kind of being that is conscious of its own individuality; and accordingly it realizes in a way beyond all other things that fullness and independence of being and action which constitute the characteristic of subsistence.

 Mercier. (1916–1917). A Manual of Modern Scholastic Philosophy. (T. L. Parker & S. A. Parker, Trans.) (Eighth Edition, Vol. 1, p. 485). London; St. Louis: Kegan Paul, Trench, Trubner & Co., Ltd.; B. Herder.

The problem I see here, is that a presupposition is that is talking about "created persons", how can you then apply such definition to the Hypostases of Divine Nature precisely involved in the creation of persons (humans)?

By the way FL, very good the improvement of the Factbook, just by hovering over the person keyword in the dictionaries section, gives a brief look, and is obvious that there was a massive problem in the translation of the greek term Hypostases.

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