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James Matthew Johnson | Forum Activity | Posted: Thu, Oct 29 2020 11:06 AM

Ok, so I was wondering why do my reformed authors not show up in reformed, like calvin, or macarthur?  Instead they go under this unnamed section.   and I mean like 75% of my commentaries are in here, but I own L8 Reformed Silver - L8 Baptist bronze and L8 Standard Silver 

Posts 4112
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 29 2020 11:13 AM

Factbook is a perpetual work in progress. They are rolling out an update to the data factbook exposes every couple weeks.

L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, L9

Posts 2241
David Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 29 2020 12:21 PM

James Matthew Johnson:
why do my reformed authors not show up in reformed

You illustrate well the challenges with assigning denominational tags.

How do "non-denominational" authors [your first 2 resources are from Dallas Theological Seminary - a "non-denominational" school; and John MacArthur who pastors a "non-denominational" church] fit into a denominational taxonomy?

What definition of "Reformed" is being used? Personally, I fall into the category of "Reformed" if one uses "ascribes to the 5 Solas of the Reformation" but would not align with the CRC - Christian Reformed Church; RCA - Reformed Church in America, the PRCA - Protestant Reformed Church in America, or RPC - Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America. I have much in common with these 4 denominations, but none of them accurately reflect my belief system.

This will get even trickier when many of the recently purchased commentaries from Broadman Holman get tagged because some in the Southern Baptist Convention strongly disagree with being placed in the stream flowing from the Protestant Reformation, while others proudly claim the label Reformed.

In your screencapture - Does Warren Wiersbe truly belong in the "Baptist" category? His seminary and early ministry years were in Baptist schools and churches, but from 1971 until his death in 2019 he was much more closely aligned with non-denominational churches and seminaries.

I don't criticize the groupings or the desire for more tagging. I just believe there is a HUGE opportunity for misunderstanding if a user doesn't realize the fluidity of these categories.

Making Disciples!  Logos Ecosystem = Logos8 on Microsoft Surface Pro 4 (Win10), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone, [deprecated] Windows App, Proclaim, Faithlife.com, FaithlifeTV via Connect subscription.

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SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 29 2020 3:01 PM

David Thomas:
What definition of "Reformed" is being used?

A denominational one, not a theological one.

“God watches over the affairs of those who truly love him without their worrying about them.” - St. John of the Cross

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 29 2020 3:30 PM

David Thomas:
How do "non-denominational" authors [your first 2 resources are from Dallas Theological Seminary - a "non-denominational" school; and John MacArthur who pastors a "non-denominational" church] fit into a denominational taxonomy?

Very seriously, I treat "non-denominational" to be a school within the denomination "American Evangelical/Fundamentalist". I consider it no different than assigning "denomination" to the major churches that have no theological grounding for the concept "denomination". As long as I understand that I have imposed a classification that is not used internally, it works just find. It is only when one tries to treat it as if it meant more that an externally imposed classification system that one gets into trouble.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1750
Ken McGuire | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 29 2020 3:44 PM

MJ. Smith:
Very seriously, I treat "non-denominational" to be a school within the denomination "American Evangelical/Fundamentalist".

I suppose if you define American Evangelical widely, yes. But if you start equating American Evangelical with Fundamentalist, no. In many ways Evangelicalism and Fundamentalism are distinct movements that do admittedly overlap enough that is confusing to us outsiders.

Edit: To give an example, I think that Rob Bell would describe his work as being Non-Denominational. But it is in no way Fundamentalist.

The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann

L8 Anglican, Lutheran and Orthodox Silver, Reformed Starter, Academic Essentials

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 29 2020 3:56 PM

Ken McGuire:
I suppose if you define American Evangelical widely, yes. But if you start equating American Evangelical with Fundamentalist,

As I lived through the decline of Fundamentalism (to which Dad as a Stone-Campbellite semi-adhered) and the rise of Evangelicalism I would not equate them except in the sense of place in American religious sociology. In my use, the emphasis is "American" rather than "Fundamentalist" or "Evangelical" ... think diverse culture, vast spaces, traveling preachers, camp meetings . . . My point in giving how I handle it was to emphasize that it is only a classification system and if we know how Faithlife handled it, it doesn't matter if it is how the group or I would handle it.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1750
Ken McGuire | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 29 2020 4:02 PM

MJ. Smith:
the emphasis is "American" rather than "Fundamentalist" or "Evangelical"

That makes more sense. But of course, we have exported that to the rest of the world.

The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann

L8 Anglican, Lutheran and Orthodox Silver, Reformed Starter, Academic Essentials

L7 Lutheran Gold, Anglican Bronze

Posts 900
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Sean Boisen | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 29 2020 4:02 PM

David Thomas:
What definition of "Reformed" is being used?

Most concretely, the "Reformed" label here means the author is (in our data) associated with one of the denominations that we've clustered into this denominational group. 

(I'll need to check on the association here with "Radical Orthodoxy": that looks suspect to me).

Also note that we're currently focused on denominations as formal organizations (and groups), not belief systems or theological positions. That's another useful categorization, but one that's harder to objectively assess at scale (we have more than 100k authors in our database).

As others have noted, this is both a tricky and imperfect categorization, as well as a work in progress. But we hope it will be broadly useful, and welcome your suggestions for improving it. 

Posts 2241
David Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 29 2020 4:15 PM

SineNomine:

David Thomas:
What definition of "Reformed" is being used?

A denominational one, not a theological one.

But the original post asked why authors (e.g. MacArthur) are not included in the taxonomy. This exposes the challenge when Logos tags by denomination but users read it as theological.

Making Disciples!  Logos Ecosystem = Logos8 on Microsoft Surface Pro 4 (Win10), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone, [deprecated] Windows App, Proclaim, Faithlife.com, FaithlifeTV via Connect subscription.

Posts 2675
David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 29 2020 4:43 PM

David Thomas:

This exposes the challenge when Logos tags by denomination but users read it as theological.

I would rather see a theological break out. That would be more useful to the way I study.  

Somewhere I saw that there were 40,000 denominations.  Question: how many theological groups do they fall into?

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 29 2020 6:07 PM

David Ames:
Somewhere I saw that there were 40,000 denominations.  Question: how many theological groups do they fall into?

Just a guess but I would guess around 2 billion ...Wink

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 29 2020 7:07 PM

Sean Boisen:
(I'll need to check on the association here with "Radical Orthodoxy": that looks suspect to me).

It's plain flat wrong. The principal Radical Orthodox scholars are Anglicans (John Milbank and associates), and Radical Orthodoxy isn't actually a denomination at all, any more than "Thomism" is.

“God watches over the affairs of those who truly love him without their worrying about them.” - St. John of the Cross

Posts 35
Colin Ware | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 29 2020 11:51 PM

When the denomination packages were first introduced I must say I stopped using Logos as often as I felt the 'labels' did not seem accurate or fair. Your comment only highlights the inconsistencies. I began using WordSearch more but now I am going to live within these 'labels'.

Is there someway they can be turned off?

Colin

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 30 2020 12:10 AM

Colin Ware:
Is there someway they can be turned off?

They can't be turned off but you can choose to ignore them as far as I can see.

Am I missing something?

Posts 1215
Sean | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 30 2020 12:56 AM

David Thomas:
I don't criticize the groupings or the desire for more tagging. I just believe there is a HUGE opportunity for misunderstanding if a user doesn't realize the fluidity of these categories.

Same; I'm having difficulty seeing the value of the effort of an exercise like this for commentaries, where approach and methodology (e.g., critical or pre-critical) are far more determinative than the author's denominational affiliation.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 30 2020 1:37 AM

Sean:
where approach and methodology (e.g., critical or pre-critical) are far more determinative than the author's denominational affiliation.

I agree but hit a brick wall on methodology/type of criticism .... the type attribute being further refined is our best chance for some kind of implementation in the near future.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 35
Colin Ware | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 30 2020 2:53 AM

Thanks for that Graham. I have now seen the Morris Proctor Webinar which explained how the options work. The option to filter by other means is helpful.

Colin

Posts 35
Colin Ware | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 30 2020 2:55 AM

Thanks for that Graham.

I have now seen the Morris Proctor Webinar which explains in detail. The option to filter by other means is helpful.

Colin

Posts 4448
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 30 2020 10:47 AM

Sean:
I'm having difficulty seeing the value of the effort of an exercise like this for commentaries, where approach and methodology (e.g., critical or pre-critical) are far more determinative than the author's denominational affiliation.

Authors from Group A usually don't say fantastically stupid things about Group A and its history, theology, approach to a particular passage, etc., but they may do such things with regard to Group B. They also come from different cultural backgrounds and intellectual traditions, which are meaningfully delimited by accurate denominational assignments. Those backgrounds come into play in their Scripture commentaries not only in their selection of approaches and methodologies, but in their execution thereof.

“God watches over the affairs of those who truly love him without their worrying about them.” - St. John of the Cross

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