How do I get a commentary to follow my position in the text more closely

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Paul Meathrel | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Nov 3 2020 3:16 AM

Hi there

I have a situation where I link a commentary to a bible using a link set.  As I move through the text using page up/page down, or by scrolling the text and commentary follow one another.  However with larger commentary sets the verse I am looking at in the bible text is often not visible in the commentary. 

For instance in the screenshot below I am wanting to see the commentary on verse 21 but this is not visible in the commentary. 

Whatever I do I cannot get the commentary to follow my position in the text, I've tried clicking on the verse number, or selecting a word but the linked commentary doesn't move.  Am I missing something obvious?

thanks


Paul

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Rick Ausdahl | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 3 2020 3:41 AM

Paul, what happens if you scroll your Bible text so that verse 21 is physically/positionally at the top of the text display area?  If positioning it there doesn't work, try scrolling the text so that the 2nd line of verse 21 is at the top of the page.  If that doesn't work, try setting the visual filter for your Bible text to "one verse per line" and making verse 21 the active verse.

Part of the problem may be that the last part of your commentary section is tagged as verses 18-24 and the commentary won't scroll until the top verse of your Bible text is verse 25.

If still no success, try changing the column setting for your Bible text to "None".  That should change your Bible text format to a single column.  I noticed your Bible text is in a two column format.  I have had trouble in the past with linked commentaries when the Bible text is set for more than a single column.

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Mike Binks | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 3 2020 4:54 AM

Greetings Paul,

I wonder if the accuracy is affected by the use of multi-column panels?

I find scrolling with such panels virtually uncontrollable.

If however, I type 'John 14:22' into the reference box it the two move together.

In single (or none) column displays the references seem to work as expected*

*I don't think I have the exact commentary you are using so the problem may be within it.

tootle pip

Mike

How to get logs and post them. (now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs)

Posts 308
Paul Meathrel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 3 2020 5:03 AM

Rick Ausdahl:

Paul, what happens if you scroll your Bible text so that verse 21 is physically/positionally at the top of the text display area?  If positioning it there doesn't work, try scrolling the text so that the 2nd line of verse 21 is at the top of the page.  If that doesn't work, try setting the visual filter for your Bible text to "one verse per line" and making verse 21 the active verse.

Part of the problem may be that the last part of your commentary section is tagged as verses 18-24 and the commentary won't scroll until the top verse of your Bible text is verse 25.

Typing 14:21 into the search box in the bible moves the commentary to 14:21 (it has a specific section on this).  

If still no success, try changing the column setting for your Bible text to "None".  That should change your Bible text format to a single column.  I noticed your Bible text is in a two column format.  I have had trouble in the past with linked commentaries when the Bible text is set for more than a single column.

This doesn't seem to make any difference, it appears that the only way in which a bible can drive the location of a linked commentary is when it is at the top of the screen or by typing in a reference.  It doesn't seem possible to advance to a specific verse which is displayed on the screen - unless I'm missing something?

Posts 308
Paul Meathrel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 3 2020 5:05 AM

Mike Binks:

Greetings Paul,

I wonder if the accuracy is affected by the use of multi-column panels?

I find scrolling with such panels virtually uncontrollable.

If however, I type 'John 14:22' into the reference box it the two move together.

In single (or none) column displays the references seem to work as expected*

*I don't think I have the exact commentary you are using so the problem may be within it.

Thanks for the reply Mike. Just to make sure I understand what you mean, if you wanted to view the comment on verse 28 which is visible in the bible but not visible in the commentary you would either have to 1) scroll to v28 which is a bit hit and miss as you say OR 2) type 14:28 in the search box.  Is that right?

Posts 308
Paul Meathrel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 3 2020 5:12 AM

OK I've done a bit more analysis on this and can report the following:

In both single column and multi column modes when you click on a verse the reference box changes to the reference clicked.  However this has no effect on the linked commentary which stubbornly remains on the first verse on the page.  This is close to working if the link between the bible and commentary were correctly honoured.

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Mike Binks | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 3 2020 6:22 AM

Paul Meathrel:
if you wanted to view the comment on verse 28 which is visible in the bible but not visible in the commentary you would either have to 1) scroll to v28 which is a bit hit and miss as you say OR 2) type 14:28 in the search box.  Is that right?

That is what works for me.

I find that scrolling multi-column panels is too inaccurate so always view resources with columns set to 'None'.

With that setting, I find that both the when moving the bible, the commentary stays in sync and when moving the commentary the bible keeps in sync.

SR2 on Mac

tootle pip

Mike

How to get logs and post them. (now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs)

Posts 308
Paul Meathrel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 3 2020 6:39 AM

Thanks Mike, I am using Windows.  What happens when you click on a verse does the reference section change and does the commentary follow this reference?

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Mike Binks | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 3 2020 7:26 AM

Paul Meathrel:

Thanks Mike, I am using Windows.  What happens when you click on a verse does the reference section change and does the commentary follow this reference?

I think I understand now Roll Eyes

The syncing doesn't work like that.

As one scrolls the bible, the commentary lines up with the top verse of the section you are using.

This works well with resources like study bibles etc where the sections are finely divided.

It is less helpful in publications such as Lexham Context Commentary New Testament where the syncing can seem arbitrary until one gets used to it.

There is no movement if you just click on a verse.

tootle pip

Mike

How to get logs and post them. (now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs)

Posts 308
Paul Meathrel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 3 2020 10:30 AM

Mike Binks:

I think I understand now Roll Eyes

The syncing doesn't work like that.

As one scrolls the bible, the commentary lines up with the top verse of the section you are using.

This works well with resources like study bibles etc where the sections are finely divided.

It is less helpful in publications such as Lexham Context Commentary New Testament where the syncing can seem arbitrary until one gets used to it.

There is no movement if you just click on a verse.

I guess what this seems to be boiling down to is that there is no way of reliably selecting a reference from a bible in order to access the linked commentary section (if available) without actually typing the biblical into the reference box.  Is that right?

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Mike Binks | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 3 2020 10:43 AM

Paul Meathrel:
I guess what this seems to be boiling down to is that there is no way of reliably selecting a reference from a bible in order to access the linked commentary section (if available) without actually typing the biblical into the reference box.  Is that right?

There are three (ish) methods that come to mind...

1. Type the reference into the box.

2. Select the position from the Table of Contents

3 Move the verse you want to look at to the top of the display

tootle pip

Mike

How to get logs and post them. (now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs)

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DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 3 2020 12:03 PM

What is at issue as has already been mentioned is that not every individual verse is indexed in every commentary. Commentaries that do verse by verse analysis of text will have every verse analysed. Commentaries that analyse a group of verses will only be index by that grouping. To get the behaviour you are expecting would require someone to read through those commentaries and make arbitrary decisions about where to insert the index point for every individual verse and sometimes in discourse on a group of verses this will it be clear. I‘m fine with the behaviour of the software as it is currently. If an author has adopted a commentary style of writing on groups of verses I’d much rather read those comments contextually as a group rather than have someone arbitrarily decided where to break up their discourse based on verse markers which were arbitrarily assigned in the first place.

I do understand what you are asking and can see someone who wants to study one verse at a time and maybe I’d preparing a lesson, homily or sermon to be delivered in that way. But personally don‘t want large discourses in commentaries being broken up on arbitary markers. 

You are not doing anything wrong or missing anything other than that the resources are not tagged in a manner that would drive the software to behave in this manner. And the commentaries were not written with them intended to be read in that way, hence they are not tagged that way.

Paul Meathrel:

Mike Binks:

I think I understand now Roll Eyes

The syncing doesn't work like that.

As one scrolls the bible, the commentary lines up with the top verse of the section you are using.

This works well with resources like study bibles etc where the sections are finely divided.

It is less helpful in publications such as Lexham Context Commentary New Testament where the syncing can seem arbitrary until one gets used to it.

There is no movement if you just click on a verse.

I guess what this seems to be boiling down to is that there is no way of reliably selecting a reference from a bible in order to access the linked commentary section (if available) without actually typing the biblical into the reference box.  Is that right?

Posts 308
Paul Meathrel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 3 2020 1:12 PM

DIsciple II:

I do understand what you are asking and can see someone who wants to study one verse at a time and maybe I’d preparing a lesson, homily or sermon to be delivered in that way. But personally don‘t want large discourses in commentaries being broken up on arbitary markers. 

I agree with what you are saying, completely, as I said in my post there 'no way of reliably selecting a reference from a bible in order to access the linked commentary section (if available)'.  In the examples I've given there is a specific section available and already marked but no way of reliably selecting it as outlined above. If the verse is not specifically marked in the resource I have no issue with it simply selecting the broader section containing the verse.

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Paul Meathrel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 8 2020 2:07 PM

Does anyone else have any suggestions or keyboard shortcuts to simplify what ought to be a straightforward process?

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 8 2020 2:51 PM

Paul Meathrel:
what ought to be a straightforward process?

Unfortunately, the variation in approaches by the commentaries means that it cannot be a straightforward process - verses are arbitrary late additions not thought units of the text.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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John Fidel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 8 2020 4:37 PM

I think using the commentary section in the passage guide or explorer works best for keeping commentaries and the Bible in sync. 

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Paul Meathrel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 9 2020 6:09 AM

MJ. Smith:

Unfortunately, the variation in approaches by the commentaries means that it cannot be a straightforward process - verses are arbitrary late additions not thought units of the text.

Thanks for the reply MJ.  I think the issue lies with the navigation process rather than with a specific resource and the way in which verses are handled in the commentary.  For instance if I select the predefined bible and commentary (which has both in a link set) I can easily click a verse number in the commentary and the bible moves in line.  However the reverse is not true, unless either you manually select the verse using the contents or type into the reference box.  My problem would be solved by being able to select a verse from the visible bible text and have any linked resources move to that location. (I completely understand that different commentaries divide up the text different, some with text for every verse and others with text for a pericope / chapter / etc).  

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Paul Meathrel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 9 2020 6:11 AM

John Fidel:

I think using the commentary section in the passage guide or explorer works best for keeping commentaries and the Bible in sync. 


Thanks John, that is where I normally start, however once working in a given piece of text with a more substantial commentary I find myself wanting the text in question on the screen but having an easy way to navigate to a specific section of the resource (whether that be verse specific or a chunk of commentary pertaining to more than one verse).

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DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 9 2020 7:31 AM

Paul Meathrel:
I think the issue lies with the navigation process rather than with a specific resource and the way in which verses are handled in the commentary.

I think you're badly under-stating the problem.  

Out of curiousity, I checked the Logos version 20 years ago (Libby) ... it's also as you describe. But ignoring the title of the present software, the software has always had trouble making the Bible as centric (vs just one more line in your library). For years, it was possible to have the linkage as many as 8 verses off. The tool panels (with a verse change) 'might' drive Bibles, and then might not. Even today, on the mobiles, in the layout-view, resources  flash blank, if the verses aren't resource-contained. Whoo-hoo!

So, don't expect too much change. Myself, I use the multiview (which wouldn't resolve your issue).

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 308
Paul Meathrel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 15 2020 1:20 PM

Wow

Denise:

I think you're badly under-stating the problem.  

Out of curiousity, I checked the Logos version 20 years ago (Libby) ... it's also as you describe. But ignoring the title of the present software, the software has always had trouble making the Bible as centric (vs just one more line in your library). For years, it was possible to have the linkage as many as 8 verses off. The tool panels (with a verse change) 'might' drive Bibles, and then might not. Even today, on the mobiles, in the layout-view, resources  flash blank, if the verses aren't resource-contained. Whoo-hoo!

So, don't expect too much change. Myself, I use the multiview (which wouldn't resolve your issue).

Wow, I can't believe that, what is probably the leading bible software in the world, cannot operate in a text-centric way like this.  Are you sure we aren't missing something?

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