Frustrated former Wordsearch Customer

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Posts 1
Gary L Morgan | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Nov 17 2020 7:47 AM

I am a new customer who integrated with Logos' purchase of Wordsearch. I wanted to let you know how disappointed I am with your software.

First, when the integration happened, I purchased the silver package which also gave me the full function software. Then the new version came out and I was going to have to pay more just to keep the package that I had. Because I didn't upgrade to the new silver package, I was no longer a silver package holder and I had to pay more so that I had the full features. The reason I was told is that new resources were added. So, I previously had and paid for the silver package, but when the new software came out I no longer owned the Silver package. I guess this will happen each time the software is updated

Second, your prices for the very same resources in Wordsearch are much higher. I could afford to purchase new resources in Wordsearch but can't afford it now. Also, the cost to upgrade to your new software is 3 times what it would cost us to upgrade to new versions of Wordsearch.

Also, I am very disappointed with the user friendliness of Logos. Wordsearch was much more user friendly. I was speaking to someone at Logos this morning and they hit the nail on the head. My impression as a new Logos customer is that I feel like Logos was developed by computer software developers to be used by computer software developers. And Wordsearch was developed to require basic computer skills that anyone can comfortably use. As a Pastor, to be honest with you, I dread trying to write a sermon using Logos. I know that I am still trying to learn how to use it all, but it has actually made my sermon writing more difficult, not easier.

Also, many of my Wordsearch resources have yet to be transferred to Logos. I know that takes time, but some resources from some commentary sets have been transferred and some haven't.

So most of the time I still use Wordsearch instead of Logos.

Thank you for your time.

Posts 108
Justin Gatlin | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 17 2020 8:00 AM

Hi Gary,

I am sorry you are frustrated. I can definitely understand the radical difference in Wordsearch and Logos being pushed on you so suddenly would be overwhelming, and I think it would have been nice for them to wait to announce the Wordsearch merger until Logos 9 was in place. If I had been yanked from Logos to Wordsearch, I would probably feel much of the same!

On your first point, you are a Logos 8 Silver owner no matter what, once you have purchased it. You will have access to every feature you currently have, and they will continue to upgrade the software in perpetuity. You will not get all of the new features given in 9 or later, but you will never lose what you have. If you want to upgrade to a later version, you get a prorated price based on what you already own (both in features and in books). 

Second, there is no denying this. Logos is more expensive. Logos has more extensive capabilities than Wordsearch, powered by the extensive tagging they do beneath the surface, but there is undeniably a sticker shock coming from Wordsearch, Olive Tree or Accordance. 

Third, I think this is really a matter of perspective. I got Wordsearch in seminary and found it extremely counter-intuitive. I think it is probably like riding a horse with English or western reins. If your muscle memory goes one way and now you are in a new system, it is tough. With how much you have invested in Logos, it would be worthwhile to go to LearnLogos.com and use their training. They do free webinars, but they also have a complete, hands on training for $60, with interactive tutorials that will walk you through every single feature in the whole software. If there is anything specific you need help with, the forums are very active. 

Finally, that is also true. But I assume the powers that be decided that getting you what they had ASAP was better than making you wait until the whole series was ready. They do have a page showing the progress of specific resources. 

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 17 2020 8:00 AM

Sorry you are frustrated Gary. Tongue Tied

I will let others chime in on most of what you have written, but for clarification: 

Gary L Morgan:
First, when the integration happened, I purchased the silver package which also gave me the full function software. Then the new version came out and I was going to have to pay more just to keep the package that I had. Because I didn't upgrade to the new silver package, I was no longer a silver package holder and I had to pay more so that I had the full features. The reason I was told is that new resources were added. So, I previously had and paid for the silver package, but when the new software came out I no longer owned the Silver package. I guess this will happen each time the software is updated

You always keep what you buy. You haven't lost anything. You still have the features and resources you purchased. It is true that if you want the NEW features (which require a purchase), you will need to pay. Otherwise, you can wait until the free L9 engine is made available and you will gain access to the new features which do not require a purchase. 

macOS, iOS & iPadOS | Logs |  Install

Posts 2158
Joseph Turner | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 17 2020 8:12 AM

Gary L Morgan:
First, when the integration happened, I purchased the silver package which also gave me the full function software. Then the new version came out and I was going to have to pay more just to keep the package that I had. Because I didn't upgrade to the new silver package, I was no longer a silver package holder and I had to pay more so that I had the full features. The reason I was told is that new resources were added. So, I previously had and paid for the silver package, but when the new software came out I no longer owned the Silver package. I guess this will happen each time the software is updated
 

I agree with everything said by those who have already replied, but I wanted to reiterate the point concerning levels of packages between editions, as this has come up before.  L9 Silver has no practical relationship to L8 Silver.  You have L8 Silver, and you will never lose it.  There is no reason for you to buy L9 Silver unless you want those resources that are included in the package.  Otherwise, you can purchase any other package you want or none at all.  

Disclaimer:  I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication.  If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.

Posts 42
Rene Atchley | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 17 2020 8:45 AM

Indeed Logos is annoying, expensive, counter intuitive, and generally an indirect piece of software that takes several steps where one could suffice.  However, it doesn't matter since the business model of the company is making money (I suppose) and its not going to change unless the ownership changes.  In a way my best advice is to accept the world of bells, whistles, fancy charts, predigested pabulum databases, and settle down for the ride...if you can. 

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Mike Binks | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 17 2020 9:12 AM

Rene Atchley:

Indeed Logos is annoying, expensive, counter intuitive, and generally an indirect piece of software that takes several steps where one could suffice.  However, it doesn't matter since the business model of the company is making money (I suppose) and its not going to change unless the ownership changes.  In a way my best advice is to accept the world of bells, whistles, fancy charts, predigested pabulum databases, and settle down for the ride...if you can. 

I find it amazing that there isn't a rival, economical, intuitive, and generally direct piece of software that uses only one step where one step is required; all produced by a company that is totally altruistic.

Surely such a company could undercut Logos, grow its user base exponentially, and even have the owners end up in heaven having done such a good job.

But then again I am just a hopeless romantic.

tootle pip

Mike

How to get logs and post them. (now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs)

Posts 102
The Flanary's | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 17 2020 10:44 AM

There is little I would add to what has already been said, except this.
 I also came from Wordsearch and had many of the complaints you have voiced, all of which have been addressed, except maybe a plug for mpseminars.com which has been my most effective tool in settling into Logos for me. (specific Wordsearch to Logos webinars here https://mpseminars.com/webinars/wordsearch/ )
  Following the move, I started off excited, turned bitter and eventually settled in to satisfaction, but the crucial piece in moving from one to the other was training.
 "Sticker Shock", I think there will be no cure for because Logos is certainly expensive, but it became easier to stomach, for me, as I learned to make it generate what I want and not the pre-digested stuff, also learning to monitor sales, packages and dynamic pricing has helped for me.

Posts 2757
David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 17 2020 11:55 AM

Gary L Morgan:

First, when the integration happened, I purchased the silver package which also gave me the full function software. Then the new version came out and I was going to have to pay more just to keep the package that I had. Because I didn't upgrade to the new silver package, I was no longer a silver package holder and I had to pay more so that I had the full features. The reason I was told is that new resources were added. So, I previously had and paid for the silver package, but when the new software came out I no longer owned the Silver package. I guess this will happen each time the software is updated

Will try to explain. Each level in each upgrade is totally independent of what went on before. 

There are features and there are libraries.

If the "silver" level was where you should be then what you MIGHT want to maintain is a "silver" level features.  This is the functionality of the "new" upgrade.  As that is the level of "studies" that you might perform.  The feature level has "some" relationship upgrade to upgrade.

The library level of "silver" changes with each upgrade. It has no relationship with the "silver" level of prior upgrades.  It is just what they called the "silver" level of this upgrade.  To some extent they try to make each level of libraries have the same cost differences between upgrades.  [silver > gold]  

Some programs have distinct differences with different levels.  With Logos only the names stay the same between upgrades.  I have slid from "gold" to "silver" as I have most of the resources that I need.  But I purchase the full feature upgrades for functionality.  

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 17 2020 12:45 PM

Gary L Morgan:
Then the new version came out and I was going to have to pay more just to keep the package that I had. Because I didn't upgrade to the new silver package, I was no longer a silver package holder and I had to pay more so that I had the full features.

Were you told that you could get your money back on Logos 8 if you bought it within a certain time (maybe 60 days) before Logos 9 was announced? That could be worthwhile, but only if the extra you pay now to upgrade to Logos 9 is more than the difference between the full price of both Logos 8 and Logos 9 Silver i.e. upgrading from Logos 8 could be cheaper than getting your money back and then purchasing L9 Silver.

L9 Silver (Library + Features) has much to desire, such as all the datasets, complete 13 volume Carta map collection + 7 volume Counseling collection to go with the Counseling Guide.

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

Posts 2692
mab | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 18 2020 12:00 AM

The timing of the Wordsearch intro and the L9 launch could disgruntle someone. You buy in and then there's another feature set upgrade right away. Frankly if you bought in at half price, you really got a deal and there's no rush to upgrade Logos. So relax.

Logos is a learning curve. After a decade, I don't think I've gotten all that far. However, it's still pretty darn easy to have at it and you can always go back to where you were when you got lost.

Give yourself some slack and ramp up with your transition. Logos is the most powerful way to do Bible study but this is something you grow into as you put it to use. It's not a race and you can run your WS until you are comfortable working in Logos. I dropped WS ages ago and transitioned away from several other programs. There's still plenty in Logos that is still mystery to me. Big deal. When you use the Passage Study Layout it unwraps everything for you in seconds. But you can't eat fast. So linger and enjoy it.

The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter

Posts 42
Rene Atchley | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 18 2020 12:37 AM

Mike Binks:

Rene Atchley:

Indeed Logos is annoying, expensive, counter intuitive, and generally an indirect piece of software that takes several steps where one could suffice.  However, it doesn't matter since the business model of the company is making money (I suppose) and its not going to change unless the ownership changes.  In a way my best advice is to accept the world of bells, whistles, fancy charts, predigested pabulum databases, and settle down for the ride...if you can. 

I find it amazing that there isn't a rival, economical, intuitive, and generally direct piece of software that uses only one step where one step is required; all produced by a company that is totally altruistic.

Surely such a company could undercut Logos, grow its user base exponentially, and even have the owners end up in heaven having done such a good job.

But then again I am just a hopeless romantic.

Not so hard to find a product without such an amazing and romantic approach considering the market is monopolized by a company (or ministry or dating service or TV station or college book publisher) who can charge up to $10k for digitized public domain products.  Of course the good old days of Standard Oil and Robber Barons as guiding examples in the free market is surely missed as they were just doing gods will through their ministries of profit accumulation.  I suppose further discussion of the obvious will lead to some sort of forum violation.

Posts 2158
Joseph Turner | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 18 2020 4:54 AM

Rene Atchley:
Not so hard to find a product without such an amazing and romantic approach considering the market is monopolized by a company (or ministry or dating service or TV station or college book publisher) who can charge up to $10k for digitized public domain products.  Of course the good old days of Standard Oil and Robber Barons as guiding examples in the free market is surely missed as they were just doing gods will through their ministries of profit accumulation.  I suppose further discussion of the obvious will lead to some sort of forum violation.

You seem to be bitter at Faithlife because you see them as a ministry which has sold out in order to make a profit.  Faithlife is a business first, which happens to sell ministry software.  I for one am glad that they are making money, because with the money I have invested in the company, I want them to stay around for a long time so that I don't lose my investment. 

As far as selling public domain works for $10k, I don't see that, as I usually buy public domain books in larger packages, like base packages, which end up making resources a couple of dollars each.  They do charge a premium for their "added value," and sometimes it is higher than I might expect, but they offer several ways to pay less than full price on most resources (sales, packages, free books, Pre-pub, CP, etc...).

Rene Atchley:
Indeed Logos is annoying, expensive, counter intuitive, and generally an indirect piece of software that takes several steps where one could suffice. 

It does sometimes take several steps to do simple tasks.  This is the way it is with any professional software, as adding a lot of features requires making judgments on how many items to put out front, and then in the first menus, and then sub menus, etc...  Often times there is a quicker way through shortcuts and such.  If you have ever used profession video or picture editing software, or any professional Adobe software, then you have the same feeling.  Even Microsoft Office products off shortcuts that have to be learned in order to work efficiently.  

Disclaimer:  I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication.  If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.

Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 18 2020 6:04 AM

Rene Atchley:
I suppose further discussion of the obvious will lead to some sort of forum violation.

Rene, Rene, Rene. You didn't seriously think you could say something negative about FL, and not precede it by saying how you love Logos oh so much, except for just a tiny little detail. Did you not expect the Logosian troops to arrive shortly, tearing each sentence apart with glee, all the while praising Mother Logos forever and ever.

I DO have to wonder, at each major upgrade (and in-between) why FL marketing can't do their Christian mission thing, and be up-front with their own customers ... this thread is right on schedule.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 432
Gregory Lawhorn | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 18 2020 9:33 AM

Joseph Turner:

Faithlife is a business first, which happens to sell ministry software.  I for one am glad that they are making money, because with the money I have invested in the company, I want them to stay around for a long time so that I don't lose my investment. 

Yup - Wordsearch isn't the first software company that was under-capitalized and under-sold its products. It's not that Faithlife gouges anyone, but that other companies (Wordsearch among them, perhaps) so undervalued their products that they couldn't stay in business. 

Posts 42
Rene Atchley | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 18 2020 9:41 AM

Joseph Turner:

Rene Atchley:
Not so hard to find a product without such an amazing and romantic approach considering the market is monopolized by a company (or ministry or dating service or TV station or college book publisher) who can charge up to $10k for digitized public domain products.  Of course the good old days of Standard Oil and Robber Barons as guiding examples in the free market is surely missed as they were just doing gods will through their ministries of profit accumulation.  I suppose further discussion of the obvious will lead to some sort of forum violation.

You seem to be bitter at Faithlife because you see them as a ministry which has sold out in order to make a profit.  Faithlife is a business first, which happens to sell ministry software.  I for one am glad that they are making money, because with the money I have invested in the company, I want them to stay around for a long time so that I don't lose my investment. 

As far as selling public domain works for $10k, I don't see that, as I usually buy public domain books in larger packages, like base packages, which end up making resources a couple of dollars each.  They do charge a premium for their "added value," and sometimes it is higher than I might expect, but they offer several ways to pay less than full price on most resources (sales, packages, free books, Pre-pub, CP, etc...).

Rene Atchley:
Indeed Logos is annoying, expensive, counter intuitive, and generally an indirect piece of software that takes several steps where one could suffice. 

It does sometimes take several steps to do simple tasks.  This is the way it is with any professional software, as adding a lot of features requires making judgments on how many items to put out front, and then in the first menus, and then sub menus, etc...  Often times there is a quicker way through shortcuts and such.  If you have ever used profession video or picture editing software, or any professional Adobe software, then you have the same feeling.  Even Microsoft Office products off shortcuts that have to be learned in order to work efficiently.  

 I have simply offered my opinion about a product that I have used for decades....nothing more, nothing less, no hidden meaning, no underlying bigger agenda.  As a user what and how the company designs their product is up to the company.  If the goal is to sell more products to me then the product will take into account my observations...if not then my money stays in my pocket unless I have no other choices in the market.

Posts 42
Rene Atchley | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 18 2020 9:47 AM

Denise:

Rene Atchley:
I suppose further discussion of the obvious will lead to some sort of forum violation.

Rene, Rene, Rene. You didn't seriously think you could say something negative about FL, and not precede it by saying how you love Logos oh so much, except for just a tiny little detail. Did you not expect the Logosian troops to arrive shortly, tearing each sentence apart with glee, all the while praising Mother Logos forever and ever.

I DO have to wonder, at each major upgrade (and in-between) why FL marketing can't do their Christian mission thing, and be up-front with their own customers ... this thread is right on schedule.

Yeah I get it.   Personally I don't care if Logos has Christians, is Christian, hopes to be Christian or some variation of such themes.  Its about a product that I am deeply frustrated with due to issue that was expressed by the person who started the thread.  The presence of money and god talk has been a regular theme in Western Christendom for awhile I believe.  

Posts 1779
Ken McGuire | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 18 2020 10:49 AM

As has been stated above by many, with Logos, when you buy a book, it is yours. The software itself is free. That said, to get all the Logos features, you need to buy those features, and the datasets associated with them. When a new version comes out, Logos adds features and datasets to try to make you want to upgrade. If these added features are worth the money for you, you are free to buy them. If not, you will get a free upgrade to the software in a few months anyway, and almost always the new software will have all the features you had in the old version without paying more.

When a new version comes out, Logos reworks the base packages.On the one hand, Base Packages are the best deal/sale on Logos resources, and it is wise to take advantage of this when a new package comes out. On the other hand, it is very tempting to want to maintain your "level" with the next package, or to move up a level. And Faithlife uses this rather aggressively in their marketing - which has been so excessive that the Babylon Bee has rightfully made fun of it. You have to remember that it is only a good deal if it has things you want, but do look at https://www.logos.com/search?page=1&sortBy=PriceLow&limit=60&filters=status-live_Status%2Bproducttype-basepackages_Product%20Type%2Blanguage-english_Language&ownership=unowned&geographicAvailability=availableToMe for deals that make sense for you.

Other good deals can be found in various Library Expansion collections, especially if they go on sale. In addition there are sales like March Madness that can be good.

The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann

L8 Anglican, Lutheran and Orthodox Silver, Reformed Starter, Academic Essentials

L7 Lutheran Gold, Anglican Bronze

Posts 348
xnman | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 18 2020 4:18 PM

Ok  [Ken McGuire]... I keep hearing that we can buy "features"....  so how does one buy the "Bible Browser Feature" and what would be the cost of it?  If it is available only in a "package" then what "package must one buy to get that ("Bible Browser") feature?

I would guess it's only available in a "package" at a "reasonably price" which many Logos developers feel is reasonable. ...  Not trying to be sarcastic ... Just pointing out what us WS people do feel.... 

So I call Logos Sales 1-888-599-1233  and that ("Bible Browser") feature is only available in the "Silver Package" which with my discount will cost me $322.59 thru the 25th of this month....  After that it will cost me $548.32.   Of course, going to the "Silver Package" there are some other features I would get.... but my point is ..  every time I have asked about a "feature to buy" I get the "in a package deal at a package deal price".  So I don't understand why people in Logos want to say you can buy features.... when me specifically have not been able to do so....

What am I missing?

xn = Christan  man=man

Posts 3742
Floyd Johnson | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 18 2020 4:41 PM

Ask about "Features only" upgrade.  No new books, but might be cheaper:

https://www.logos.com/product/195570/logos-9-full-feature-upgrade 

or

https://www.logos.com/feature-upgrades 

Blessings,
Floyd

Pastor-Patrick.blogspot.com

Posts 1530
Rick Ausdahl | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 18 2020 5:03 PM

Using the 2nd link in Floyd's post, I scrolled to near the bottom of the web page where it shows four different features packages.  From what I can see, the Bible Browser feature is available starting in the Bronze features package.

Assuming you're logged in to your Faithlife account when on that page, selecting any one of the feature set packages should show you what your dynamic upgrade price would be for that package.

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