Analysis of the usefulness of Logos 9 base packages

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David Ames | Forum Activity | Posted: Thu, Dec 17 2020 6:22 AM

FL sells base packages in 12 ‘groups’ with up to 8 levels in each group.

Question: Someone just entered your ‘group’. [a new convert] Money for that hypothetical person is not a problem. [for this analysis] So what is the minimum level they need to buy to have ‘everything’ they need to grow in your ‘group’ using only resources in a FL base package?

First we need to figure out what they would need in addition to just Bible study:

   Search and learn ‘group’ doctrine principles.

   Learn meaning of ‘group’ church practices.  

   [Please add to this list other core / basic requirements needed for a new convert?]

One ‘group’ that I took a quick look at would need to start at Silver level [for $850] to gain any idea as to what that ‘group’s doctrines are.  

For example: what level does a Baptist or a Lutheran or a Catholic [Verbum] need to buy to become a good ‘group’ member?  [Using only that ‘group’s base FL package for information!]

What level to go from a new convert to a study leader in the ‘group’s doctrine and practices?

Now tell me [or rather this new convert for whom money is tight] why they need to spend $850 [half a month’s rent?] for FL Bible software when there are free programs that do the simple things. [Read bible, search bible, and read doctrinal material on the ‘group’s headquarters web site.]

Or is FL not the place to start studying your ‘group’?  That is do not spend the $850 until you have a good basic knowledge in your ‘group’ and join FL only when you are ready to step up to becoming a study leader? 

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Mike Binks | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 17 2020 6:28 AM

Perhaps I don't understand the question but wouldn't 'Fundamentals' be a good start.

Then add the specific books that the group needs as individual purchases.

After all one can only read so many books at a time.

tootle pip

Mike

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David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 17 2020 6:42 AM

Mike Binks:

Perhaps I don't understand the question but wouldn't 'Fundamentals' be a good start.

RE try:

What FL base package can teach a new convert to your 'group' everything they need to know about your 'groups' practices and beliefs from only the FL resources in the base package?     Yes, what base package teaches the 'fundamentals' of the 'group'

OR is that not what FL is about?  [[that is learn the fundamentals elsewhere and only come to FL to go deeper?]]

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David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 17 2020 6:50 AM

Mike Binks:

Then add the specific books that the group needs as individual purchases.

Are the books that teach the 'fundamentals' of a 'group' available in FL? And if not why not. And if so what package level are the needed 'fundamentals' available?  In one 'group' I found the first hint at the  'fundamentals' of that 'group' in Silver at $850. 

Or is FL not into teaching the 'fundamentals' of a 'group'?

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Mike Binks | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 17 2020 7:13 AM

David Ames:
Or is FL not into teaching the 'fundamentals' of a 'group'?

Ok David, I am sorry to be so obtuse but would you give an example of a 'group' and what the "fundamentals' might be that need resources to explain them?

tootle pip

Mike

How to get logs and post them. (now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs)

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 17 2020 7:14 AM

David Ames:
What FL base package can teach a new convert to your 'group' everything they need to know about your 'groups' practices and beliefs

None of the base packages have that. The "groups" that you mention are better described as "traditions" or perhaps "streams." Sometimes they are called "denominational" packages, but none of the packages are endorsed and created by any denomination. 

Some denominations have "introduction to the faith" type courses, but I don't think any have partnered with FL to have that material in Logos. 

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 17 2020 7:18 AM

Mike Binks:

David Ames:
Or is FL not into teaching the 'fundamentals' of a 'group'?

Ok David, I am sorry to be so obtuse but would you give an example of a 'group' and what the "fundamentals' might be that need resources to explain them?

I am understanding David to mean (and he can correct me if I am wrong) something like: "At what level would someone need to make a purchase to learn how to be a good Lutheran, Baptist, Pentecostal, etc.?" 

That was what I meant in my reply, but to clarify: Most of these groups are not monolithic, so there isn't one single authority you can go to define "THIS" is what a Baptist is. "THIS" is how a Baptist should believe and behave. 

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 17 2020 7:22 AM

David Ames:

Mike Binks:

Then add the specific books that the group needs as individual purchases.

Are the books that teach the 'fundamentals' of a 'group' available in FL? And if not why not. And if so what package level are the needed 'fundamentals' available?  In one 'group' I found the first hint at the  'fundamentals' of that 'group' in Silver at $850. 

Like Mike and JT I don't think the packages are focused on this question.

I would approach it from two separate perspectives:

(Note: I own both books but haven't read them so am not particularly recommending them - just suggesting the type of approach I would take)

 

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Ken McGuire | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 17 2020 7:24 AM

As a Lutheran, we do make a significant distinction between Doctrine and Practice, with an insistence that Doctrinal unity is what unites the church, while Practices can change from time and place. We do differ across Lutheranism about what Doctrinal Unity means, but that is a different - and off topic - discussion.

And yet, to be a functioning member of a community you do have to, to some degree, accept the Practice of that time and place, so I will go along with your discussion.

There is a thing going on in many Lutheran circles of "Bible, Catechism, and Hymnal" as the three basic resources for the Christian. As far as Bible goes, Logos does well. LCMS has largely transferred from NIV84 to ESV. And ELCA largely uses NRSV. WELS, to my understanding has used NIV, ESV and now Evangelical Heritage Version has some champions. All except the NIV are in every Lutheran base package, and current NIV is easily available, and as for NIV84? Well - that topic can derail the thread and so I will not go there.

For Catechism, the standard LCMS catechism is https://www.logos.com/product/149689/luthers-small-catechism-with-explanation-2017-edition which, while not in any base package, is easy enough to add. To the best of my knowledge, the ELCA does not have a standard catechism that is used as broadly as the above, but they do have the Lutheran Handbook series, which is in Lutheran Bronze and above. I unfortunately do not know as much about catechisis in WELS as I probably should, but it appears that their standard catechism is also available separately in both and NIV and ESV version. And of course, the full K-W edition of the Book of Concord is in Lutheran Starter and up, with older versions also available.

But for Hymnal, Logos falls down - and possibly this is a case of the denominational publishers not willing to give up their monopolies on them, or at least not being willing to do so for a price that Faithlife is willing to accept. As for the hymnals that Logos does offer, while some may have historical interest, I have never seen any of them actually USED in a Lutheran Worship service.

You ask what level would have "everything". Well, while the Christian life will bring you to more and more, I am not at all convinced that "everything" is a realistic earthly goal. I will say that the Lutheran packages have many things that will feed the Lutheran on the way... They are just missing on a huge core text - namely the Hymnal and Orders of Worship that they would use every Sunday.

The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann

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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 17 2020 7:30 AM

I’d suggest that the local ‘group’ church already has material about their doctrine and church practices.

That’s probably the best source to help a new convert.

Even if a base package has general information about a group, it probably wouldn’t line up 100% with the local ‘group.’

Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!

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xnman | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 17 2020 8:06 AM

Maybe I don't understand .....  but...

I don't think it's Logos purpose to teach about some particular group. I think Logos wants to provide books, etc. for groups but not "teach" about that group. I pray I am right in this...

In fact, I think I belong to a group that FL does not have many books for so I wind up using books from other "groups" and making my own way with them. And being a somewhat free thinker....I'm ok with that. 

But if FL or Logos is going to try to gently or otherwise move me into some group...well.. I just don't think that's gonna happen either way. I don't think they are trying to do that... and I know I love a gooood Biblical discussion... just saying... Big Smile

xn = Christan  man=man

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 17 2020 9:37 AM

xnman:
I don't think it's Logos purpose to teach about some particular group.

I don't think anyone in this thread was implying that. 

xnman:
I think Logos wants to provide books, etc. for groups but not "teach" about that group.

I think everyone in this thread would agree with that statement. 

The question is (in some sense or another that the OP will have to clarify): Does Logos sell, or do they plan to sell, entry level bundles for members of various "groups" to use to help prepare them for life/practice in that "group." It isn't about Logos teaching, it is about others using Logos to teach. 

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DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 17 2020 9:52 AM

David Ames,

Just buy a book like “What Baptist Believe” or “What _____________ Believe” or since he or she is in your group you should teach them what your group believes and just have them use e-sword.  You should be able to teach a new convert what you believe without having to buy Logos.  Unless of course, you’re looking for a $30 dollar credit for referring someone.

So it’s your responsibility to teach and have them use e-sword or one of many websites with free access to online resources like studylight.org, etc.

Nobody has to spend half month’s rent on anything.  If they can afford it then invest in Logos, but if they can’t afford it then use e-sword or online free resources — or better yet, YOU since you know what your particular group believes 👍😁👌

DAL

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Mike Binks | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 17 2020 11:06 AM

DAL:
Nobody has to spend half month’s rent on anything.  If they can afford it then invest in Logos, but if they can’t afford it then use e-sword or online free resources

Hi DAL just out of interest.

Is there any reason that you are not recommending Logos (Desktop or WebApp) with basics as a free resource?

tootle pip

Mike

How to get logs and post them. (now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs)

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DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 17 2020 11:15 AM

Mike Binks:

DAL:
Nobody has to spend half month’s rent on anything.  If they can afford it then invest in Logos, but if they can’t afford it then use e-sword or online free resources

Hi DAL just out of interest.

Is there any reason that you are not recommending Logos (Desktop or WebApp) with basics as a free resource?

I do recommend the free version, but my point was nobody has to spend “half mont’s rent” to study the Bible.  In any case, the free resources offered by FL are too limited; hence, e-sword would be the better choice to recommend.

DAL

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mab | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 17 2020 12:46 PM

I would suggest a FL subscription for someone who is interested. Nothing better than seeing L9 in action. If it makes sense, than a starter package is chump change at less than 70 cents a day in the first year. Logos is something that proves itself to those who use it. 

The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter

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David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 17 2020 4:02 PM

JT (alabama24):

Most of these groups are not monolithic, so there isn't one single authority you can go to define "THIS" is what a Baptist is. "THIS" is how a Baptist should believe and behave. 

But FL implies that this is the package you should buy if you are “Baptist”. And then the package does not ‘teach” you how to be a “Baptist”

Ken McGuire:

They are just missing on a huge core text - namely the Hymnal and Orders of Worship that they would use every Sunday.

Or a “Lutheran”

xnman:

In fact, I think I belong to a group that FL does not have many books for so I wind up using books from other "groups" and making my own way with them. And being a somewhat free thinker....I'm ok with that. 

There are several forum “groups” that FL does not “have many books for”! Welcome to the club!

JT (alabama24):

The question is (in some sense or another that the OP will have to clarify): Does Logos sell, or do they plan to sell, entry level bundles for members of various "groups" to use to help prepare them for life/practice in that "group." It isn't about Logos teaching, it is about others using Logos to teach. 

You got it.  FL labels packages as if that is what a ‘group” wants but it is not “entry level bundles for members of various "groups" to use to help prepare them for life/practice in that "group”

 

Thanks for the replies.  Backs up what I have seen while using Logos. 

Next question: if Logos does not offer “entry level bundles for members of various "groups" to use to help prepare them for life/practice in that "group”  How do we lead a new member to spend $250 to $850 or more to enter the Logos world?

[Please start a new thread as maybe: "how to convince others to buy into the Logos world"

 

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DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 17 2020 4:34 PM

David Ames:
How do we lead a new member to spend $250 to $850 or more to enter the Logos world?

Another thread, huh.

I can't imagine wanting to get a friend to buy into a premium-priced platform that locks them in ... unless they already were on that road (eg pastors, serious studiers, etc). In 15 years, I don't think I've ever recommended Logos ... each instance has suggested more affordable and easier to use/apply choices. 

No offense to Mother Logos.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

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DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 17 2020 5:01 PM

There’s no need to lead people into Logos; especially a new convert.  They need to read their Bible first and learn the basics with one on one lessons or Bible class for new converts in a group.  Once they learn the basics in the classroom then they need to learn how to study their Bible and find a method that they feel comfortable with; then and only then tools should be recommended based on the level of interest.  E-sword first if they are tight with money or Logos if they can afford it and are serious about studying the Bible in-depth.

Focus on leading people to Christ not Logos. Logos offers payment plans for their software but not salvation.  Sorry David, but you’re coming across like you got it all wrong and backwards.  No need for another thread.  It seems like you really failed from the get-go to articulate what it is that you were getting at with this whole Logos for “groups” thread.  
In fact, at one point you came across as complaining about Logos for recommending a silver package that costs “half month’s rent.” The whole thread just started out wrong and ended wrong.

Maybe you’re still not able to get your point across or put into words what you really have in your mind?

Anyway, just a thought about the whole thread that no one really seemed to understand.  So please, don’t feel attacked and don’t take it personal.

Blessings!

DAL

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DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 17 2020 5:15 PM

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