Ravi Cancelled

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This post has 82 Replies | 3 Followers

Posts 5576
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 14 2021 12:01 PM

Most of these that fail are possibly untouched by human hands as I see it often on FL eBooks site.

scooter:

Tom Reynolds:
Please , please , please. Personally I don't care who wrote the forward and I don't want confusing results when I search for an author.

I'm absolutely with you on this one, Tom.  When I see this I sigh, + shake my head.

A Logos professional page entry is a wonderful thing.  Unfortunately, some fall askew.  I see staff training needed, + a template required for the page entry.

Posts 68
1Cor10:31 | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 14 2021 12:11 PM

DIsciple II:

So you are saying God can not act providentially through the imperfect actions of human beings to bring about his will? The God I read of in the scriptures does exactly this and as I believe he is the same yesterday, today, and will be tomorrow I believe he can be at work in this situation too.

 

I have nowhere said that God is not sovereign. I don't know what I've said that made you come to this conclusion. In fact, in my mind, the number #2 attribute of God is His sovereignty (#1 is He exists by Himself because He is a Creator and everything else is a creation)

Bonus: My (non-seminary) definition of sovereignty that a layman can understand: God can do whatever the heck He pleases. Cite me when you use my definition!

Posts 5576
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 14 2021 12:14 PM

And it’s a good thing that public reaction is different. I don’t know of the Bill Hybels or Joshua Harris (or even who this man is - Gof in his own way and time for whatever he did is removing his influence) situations and as for Driscoll I heard him speak once when he was in the rise and was not impressed, he did not preach Christ but Mark Driscoll instead.  I cringe when ever I see his material still for sale. The fact it is is simply evidence we still have some way to go.

NB.Mick:

DIsciple II:

mike:

Well, we are living in the "cancel-culture" time. What do we expect?

This is not cancel-culture. This is the consequences of sin. Anyone who wants to suggest otherwise is ignoring God’s holiness and the standards he has set before us in his Word.

I'm not saying you are wrong - but the public reaction nowadays is different than it used to be Case in point: Faithlife has 13 products on offer today by Mark Driscoll, and 16 by C.J. Mahaney. I can buy books by Bill Hybels and even Joshua Harris' "I Kissed Dating Goodbye" if I want to - even though the author left his position and maybe even his faith. The decision of Thomas Nelson to radically cancel Ravi's books, which costs them sales, can only mean that they feared a large backlash impacting them as a publisher even more, if they kept the books and were associated in some sense with Ravi.  

Posts 49
Aaron Hayworth | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 14 2021 2:12 PM

Is it a good quote? Yes. Is it sinful to quote Ravi? Probably not, unless you do so out of malice or disregard for the suffering. But is it prudent or caring to do so? Definitely not. 

There are so many other folks out there we can appeal to besides him. I've seen some in this thread suggest that if we stop using Ravi, we should stop using everyone because everyone is a sinner. Give me a break! That is a weak argument and a deflection from the gross moral failings we should be discussing. There are plenty of theologians out there who confess their sin and seek to work in public theology. But we need to focus on reckoning with this fall from grace and doing so after the man's death. These revelations are harmful, but they are especially harmful to those who have been victimized or who have been the targets of persons in power who use faith as a weapon. 

Ravi wasn't cancelled by HarperCollins, Faithlife, or anyone else. He was cancelled by himself. He cancelled himself by worshipping himself instead of Ged. 

Posts 68
1Cor10:31 | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 14 2021 2:34 PM

Aaron Hayworth:

I've seen some in this thread suggest that if we stop using Ravi, we should stop using everyone because everyone is a sinner. Give me a break! That is a weak argument and a deflection from the gross moral failings we should be discussing.

Paul persecuted and killed Christians. So what if he confessed afterwards. We read Paul.

Who decides what is gross moral failing and what is not gross moral failing? What about adultery? Do you know Jesus's definition of adultery? Try listing down what you consider gross moral failings and what is not and you will see quickly that this is a exercise that goes nowhere.

Aaron Hayworth:

There are plenty of theologians out there who confess their sin and seek to work in public theology. 

There are plenty of theologians whose sins are still private! But God sees everyone's sins. Is a sin that has become public worse than a sin that is still private? Don't tell me that there are no more sexual abusers among theologians and seminarians. 

Aaron Hayworth:

Ravi wasn't cancelled by HarperCollins, Faithlife, or anyone else. He was cancelled by himself. He cancelled himself by worshipping himself instead of Ged. 

I don't care whether the publisher cancels or not. I care about discrimination. Lay down an explicit policy under which they will cancel someone's work and stick to it no matter who does it.

Posts 8002
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 14 2021 2:34 PM

From now on all the good quotes by RZ will start with, “someone once said...” 👍😁👌

DAL

Posts 303
MWW | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 14 2021 3:44 PM

DAL:
From now on all the good quotes by RZ will start with, “someone once said...” 👍😁👌

😂 Yes that is a good way to slip in a valid truth from a less than desirable source! 👍

Posts 9556
Forum MVP
Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 14 2021 4:46 PM

So far I've refrained from saying anything in this thread but I just wanted to say that I too am saddened at this whole thing. What is a shame is that a massive world-wide ministry that did a lot of good is also significantly impacted. It is also a shame that anything good he left in writing or in spoken word will now be minimized

Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God

Posts 8002
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 14 2021 5:01 PM

Bruce Dunning:

So far I've refrained from saying anything in this thread but I just wanted to say that I too am saddened at this whole thing. What is a shame is that a massive world-wide ministry that did a lot of good is also significantly impacted. It is also a shame that anything good he left in writing or in spoken word will now be minimized

Saddest part is that the name of God is being blasphemed already with YouTube videos making fun of this whole situation 😔 Unbelievers take any opportunity they can get to discredit christianity when these things happen!

DAL

Posts 5576
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 15 2021 1:08 AM

Anyone who thinks this this is cancel culture needs to take the time to examine the details of the full investigation report into this situation released by RZIM. There are plenty of videos outlining the details that include but photo collections and the use of ministry funds to pay for his activities and to keep people quiet. Removing his books etc is not cancel culture, it is not discrimination or arbitrary decision making. It is appropriate and really the only possible response that could be taken.

Posts 453
Gregory Lawhorn | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 15 2021 5:27 AM

DIsciple II:

Anyone who thinks this this is cancel culture needs to take the time to examine the details of the full investigation report into this situation released by RZIM. There are plenty of videos outlining the details that include but photo collections and the use of ministry funds to pay for his activities and to keep people quiet. Removing his books etc is not cancel culture, it is not discrimination or arbitrary decision making. It is appropriate and really the only possible response that could be taken.

I couldn't agree more. Ravi didn't "slip" and he didn't "fall" once or twice, he lived for years in terrible, unrepentant sin and hypocrisy. There is not the slightest hint that he grieved over his sin; to the contrary, he manipulated circumstances in order to keep his sinful life intact and untouched. The church does not need his books. 

People have raised the examples of David or Paul as sinners, forgetting that the Holy Spirit redeemed those men from their crimes, and chose to use them to write Holy Scripture. We know about their sins because these men themselves recorded them in Scripture (just as Moses recorded the murder of the Egyptian). Paul committed NONE of his sins as a Christian or an apostle. All of the elect are sinners, obviously, but none of the elect continue to live as sinners (First John 3:9). Christians do fall and commit acts of sin, but they do not continue in those sins as a lifestyle. The promise of the Gospel is "such WERE some of you" (First Corinthians 6:9-11), not "such ARE some of you." 

Posts 98
John W | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 15 2021 9:26 AM

Certainly RZ bears the bulk of the blame but it sounds like his ministry enabled him. So there is blame there. They should have rebuked him, then held him accountable from that point on. But possibly they saw him as their cash cow so didn't want to threaten that. Psalm 141:4,5 is relevant here. I pray this regularly for myself.

Posts 68
1Cor10:31 | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 15 2021 9:58 AM

John W:

Certainly RZ bears the bulk of the blame but it sounds like his ministry enabled him. So there is blame there. They should have rebuked him, then held him accountable from that point on. But possibly they saw him as their cash cow so didn't want to threaten that.

As a financial economist, we understand the source of incentives or lack thereof. There are 2 issues:

1) Family members cannot be expected to provide oversight. Ravi's daughter was the CEO. His wife was Vice Chairman. How can we then expect them to ask tough questions of Ravi? If someone accused my wife of 20+ years of something, of course, I am going to believe my wife.  

2) Money is a source of incentives. Ravi's daughter made over $200K; his wife over $150K (google it). I doubt if these two folks would be able to make that much money outside of RZIM. If you're overpaid relative to your skill set, then you have no incentive to lose that job. Why are they overpaid? Non-profits flush with cash are notorious for overpaying (my anecdotal observation; not backed by research) because there is no market mechanism to keep costs in check.

The combination of (1) and (2) is present in so many Christian organizations run by well-known pastors. 

First, get rid of family members in the oversight position if you want accountability.

Second, use some sort of compensation consultants to think of fair pay to avoid overpaying.

John W:

 Psalm 141:4,5 is relevant here. I pray this regularly for myself.

Thank you for these great verses. I am just a regular joe, but I am going to include this in my prayer file.

Posts 3051
Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 15 2021 3:16 PM

NDD:

Doc B:

don’t think what is happening is simply a matter of cancel culture but a response to what message WE want to present to the unsaved World. Are WE going to try to cover up or excuse his actions as ’the Church’ has been guilty of in the past or are WE going to draw a LINE IN THE SAND and say WE will not tolerate sexual misconduct.

You attributed this quote to me, but I didn't say it.

I'd appreciate if you would remove it. (This has nothing to do with whether I approve or disapprove of the quote...it is simply bad form to attribute a quote to me I did not make.)

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

Posts 68
1Cor10:31 | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 15 2021 7:20 PM

Doc B:

NDD:

Doc B:

don’t think what is happening is simply a matter of cancel culture but a response to what message WE want to present to the unsaved World. Are WE going to try to cover up or excuse his actions as ’the Church’ has been guilty of in the past or are WE going to draw a LINE IN THE SAND and say WE will not tolerate sexual misconduct.

You attributed this quote to me, but I didn't say it.

I'd appreciate if you would remove it. (This has nothing to do with whether I approve or disapprove of the quote...it is simply bad form to attribute a quote to me I did not make.)

I'm sorry about my mistake. I am happy to remove it. I just need help from one of the forum members as to how to remove it.

Posts 119
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 15 2021 7:44 PM

NDD:
I just need help from one of the forum members as to how to remove it.

You can't ... it's past the edit time-limit. Doc knew that. Presumably, a star-person would have to step in (or FL person).

Posts 19144
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 16 2021 5:39 AM

DMB:

NDD:
I just need help from one of the forum members as to how to remove it.

You can't ... it's past the edit time-limit. Doc knew that. Presumably, a star-person would have to step in (or FL person).

Requested Faithlife assistance.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 43
Rene Atchley | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 16 2021 6:33 AM

As I read along in this thread about a publisher who has, essentially, silenced the voice of an author one question remains in my mind.   How many books would remain to be published if all materials by immoral author's, sinful people, disagreeable theological perspectives, offensive ideas, different faith traditions, unholy people, and heretical ideas....just about any other reasons for theologians (loosely speaking) gets their spleen in an uproar about.   I'm thinking cancel culture has been part of Christianity far longer than when some of our political enemies came up with the idea.  

Posts 1791
Ken McGuire | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 16 2021 10:04 AM

Are not publishers allowed to distribute the works they want? Is HarperCollins breaking any of the contracts they made with the author of these works?

The allegations are not just that he participated in some immoral activities. It is rather that he and his ministry used their power to continue abuse and silence criticism. He is dead, and so is facing his maker - who I truly believe is merciful. And his ministry is trying to come clean by paying for an independent study of the allegations and distributing their "dirty laundry" as part of coming clean. Part of me commends them for this, but part of me also knows this is the standard first step - and you hardly get much credit for doing this. It is a step - too small - but a needed first step.

But I am fine with authors saying they do not want to be associated with this behavior, and so wanting someone else to write an introduction for their books. I am fine with a publisher saying they do not want to be associated with this, and would rather destroy their inventory than sell it for PR reasons. I am fine with a ministry being put on a "dollar diet" and loosing those contracts that have been supporting them. This is part of repentance.

And I will be fine when after the controversy is fully investigated, with changes to make it less likely to happen again, for the rights holders to negotiate a new contract to distribute those works after their value for the future is recognized in the light of everything that has happened.

The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann

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Posts 5576
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 16 2021 11:38 AM

Rene if you truly beliebe this is cancel culture in this instance, if you truly understand the depth of this deliberate systematic sin and believe as Christian we should continue to allow him to be put forward as someone who represents Christ then I am concerned for how you can say you honour God’s name above all. 

I hope this man before his death did confess his sin before God, I hope standing before God there is for him mercy, grace and forgiveness, that in spite of his sin his faith was genuine. For I too am a sinner no more deserving of grace, mercy and forgiveness than he. But when sun such as this exposed and a person is in a position of leadership that he was there has to be strong consequence for what matters is not this man’s name or what value we got out of his ministry but God’s name.  Rene please carefully consider whose name it is that you hallow.

Rene Atchley:

As I read along in this thread about a publisher who has, essentially, silenced the voice of an author one question remains in my mind.   How many books would remain to be published if all materials by immoral author's, sinful people, disagreeable theological perspectives, offensive ideas, different faith traditions, unholy people, and heretical ideas....just about any other reasons for theologians (loosely speaking) gets their spleen in an uproar about.   I'm thinking cancel culture has been part of Christianity far longer than when some of our political enemies came up with the idea.  

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