Why do Verbumites pay the same as Logosians for a lesser product

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Posted: Mon, Mar 15 2021 2:07 AM
  • In general, reading plans, work flows, and similar smaller features are geared  for the Logos side of the house. No problem if and only if Verbum slowly adds such features at a consistent rate.  But for several years running, listing items for Verbum gets positive feedback and no visible progress
  • I have no problem with there being differences between Logos and Verbum - Logos gets  IgniterMedia and SermonAudio while Verbum gets Catholic Topic Index and predefined collections. I think the distinctions are appropriate. But I don't think it is appropriate that the content of a Guide is changed when I open a Logos Passage Guide in Verbum ... acknowledged as a bug many years ago but never changed.
  • I do have a problem with differences that are not based on differences in need - why no help cards in Verbum? why no links to the Faithlife Logos groups? Verbum gets no equivalent but we pay for its development. I know unfair product treatment when I see it.

What was the final straw? 

David P. Moore:
. I noticed there is a "Discuss this feature" choice in the "ke-bob" menu for many panels, and I decided to use it the other day for a question I had, and got a quick response, and a notification of the response thru the Faithlife app on my phone, which I thought was nice.
... a feature denied Verbum for no discernable reason except discriminatory marketing. There is no justification for a "separate development" to hold water as the code between Logos and Verbum should have very limited differences on a common base.

If you consider my total investment in Faithlife starting with the first Catholic package (L2?], I think I've paid more than my fair share for features I don't have.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 205
scooter | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 15 2021 4:03 AM

I use Logos, but I see the need for Verbum's customer base to be treated fairly, with the same features.

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David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 15 2021 5:25 AM

MJ. Smith:

  • In general, reading plans, work flows, and similar smaller features are geared  for the Logos side of the house. No problem if and only if Verbum slowly adds such features at a consistent rate.  But for several years running, listing items for Verbum gets positive feedback and no visible progress

Question: Do these " features" get turned on and off by "set Verbum to yes" and "set Verbum to no"? 

[[That used to be the way one switched between the two]]

Posts 374
DissapointLife | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 15 2021 7:29 AM

I'm just here to agree. I use vanilla logos.

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SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 15 2021 1:43 PM

David Ames:
[[That used to be the way one switched between the two]]

Correction: that is and long has been how one changes a Logos installation into a near mimic of a Verbum installation... one that has Help cards, unless something's changed recently.

Posts 102
Greg Rose | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 15 2021 1:53 PM

MJ, thanks for focusing on the disparate treatment between the Logos product and the Verbum product.  I've been a user since the days of "Libronix". I took the Verbum route when it became available and I too have invested significant money in the Logos/Verbum product.  I certainly want to echo MJs frustration with regards to the issues she has raised.

Posts 2844
David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 16 2021 5:17 AM

SineNomine:

David Ames:
[[That used to be the way one switched between the two]]

Correction: that is and long has been how one changes a Logos installation into a near mimic of a Verbum installation... one that has Help cards, unless something's changed recently.

Re: Near mimic: What are the differences between a "pure Verbum" Installation and a Logos installation with "Verbum set to Yes"]]

[[Next post: What are the differences between a "pure Logos" Installation and a Verbum installation with "Verbum set to No"?]]

[[Post after that one: Does "Verbum set to" change any thing from the "pure" Installation to any thing less when one changes it back to what ever the "pure" Installation was when it was a "pure" Installation?]]

[[What I really meant to ask was] We have two PCs. My wife never uses Logos nor Verbum.  I have installed Logos on mine and Verbum on hers [both for my use only]  Have I upset anything by using the "Verbum set to" command that does not get un-upset when I go back to the other state?

Posts 2200
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 16 2021 5:56 AM

Why do we need 2 separate products?  I genuinely do not understand.

Posts 205
scooter | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 16 2021 6:22 AM

Mark:

Why do we need 2 separate products?  I genuinely do not understand.

Who are you asking this question of??

Posts 509
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 16 2021 7:01 AM

Mark:

Why do we need 2 separate products?  I genuinely do not understand.

Ok, Verbum, it is. It'll be good for Logosians to figure out why there's so many Esdras.

More seriously, Verbum should be leading the way on how to do religion with software. Logos is hopelessly a stack and rack proposition (list, search, tag, and tree it).

Posts 2200
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 16 2021 7:33 AM

scooter:

Mark:

Why do we need 2 separate products?  I genuinely do not understand.

Who are you asking this question of??

It was a genuine question meant to add to this thread, not hack it. It was meant I suppose for FL or for anyone who can give insight.  I wonder if the need for two separate products is still necessary.

MJ has a legitimate question.  And I hope it gets addressed by FL.

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 16 2021 7:42 AM

Mark:

Why do we need 2 separate products?  I genuinely do not understand.

There are some significant differences in the ways that some users approach Bible and Historical studies. Logos was originally created for a "broadly evangelical" (protestant) community. For example, they expect 66 books in the canon and do not want mariological resources. I am sure that there are many Catholics who would prefer not to have devotionals by Luther and Calvin pop up. The same is true with the "on this day in history" feature. 

A Venn diagram would show much overlap between the two, but where they DON'T overlap, there can be significant controversy. There would also be a third circle in that Venn diagram of those who are one side or the other but DO want the material from the other side as well. 

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Ken McGuire | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 16 2021 8:15 AM

JT (alabama24):
I am sure that there are many Catholics who would prefer not to have devotionals by Luther and Calvin pop up.

As a Lutheran, I have certainly run into a few Roman Catholics who react strongly against anything with the names of Luther or Calvin. But I have run into many Roman Catholics who actually quite value Luther's Devotional writings, and have told us Lutherans how they are rooted in Medieval monasticism. They may disagree with him on some points - especially in his Polemical writings, but all in all, I think Roman Catholics appreciate and respect Luther's devotional writings FAR more than the typical American Evangelical Protestant respects, for example, Thomas Aquinas' devotional writings - even when Luther is gently critiquing some Roman Catholic practices, eg. Luther's work on the Magnificat.

None of this is to say that they would typically have Luther as a first choice - or that there is no difference between Luther's thought and Roman Catholicism. But one of the flowers of Vatican 2 has been an recognition that even if they say Luther was a off-pitch, and even if you say that he made inappropriate choices over the whole of Catholicism, his thought is still anchored in Catholicism.

None of this is to say that you were wrong when you said "There are some significant differences in the ways that some users approach Bible and Historical Studies." You are indeed right on that. It just gets more complicated, and you could have picked a better example. And what I read MJ as saying in her original post is that Logos/Verbum development lately seems to have been dominated by features that would be more useful for the typical American Evangelical user, and that that Verbum development has lagged behind this, with too many features only half-way implemented.

The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann

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Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 16 2021 8:18 AM

JT (alabama24):
There are some significant differences

I understand all that, and I am sure that was the original idea behind a second product.  But now?  We have various packages...reformed packages, baptist packages, Orthodox packages, academic packages.  Why can't Verbum be another denominational package? I buy Verbum products and it incorporates into Logos.  If you buy Logos products, it incorporates into Verbum.  I have a birthday and get a Verbum birthday credit.  Usually I get a Logos credit.  To me, it is confusing...just like introducing Noet (now obsolete) was confusing.  And it causes the problem MJ brings up.  The fact is, I would like to have the Catholic topic index...and lo and behold...in Logos, I have it!  Why do Verbum customers not have links to FL Logos groups?

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Mike Binks | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 16 2021 8:37 AM

JT (alabama24):
There would also be a third circle in that Venn diagram of those who are one side or the other but DO want the material from the other side as well. 

Mark me down as a 'Third Circleist'!

I use Logos but resent the fact that I would need to download a whole new library to get the facilities that others have should I find a need for them.

We can prioritise our bible translation why can't we prioritise our canon?

Why can't we, at least in our software, turn saints and/or martyrs on and off as required?

(Who knows if one can actually turn saints and/or martyrs off?)

Unifying Verbum and Logos should be an aspiration not least because it encourages unity. I seem to remember that somebody else thought unity a good idea.

tootle pip

Mike

How to get logs and post them. (now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs)

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 16 2021 10:05 AM

Mike Binks:

JT (alabama24):
There would also be a third circle in that Venn diagram of those who are one side or the other but DO want the material from the other side as well. 

Mark me down as a 'Third Circleist'!

I use Logos but resent the fact that I would need to download a whole new library to get the facilities that others have should I find a need for them.

We can prioritise our bible translation why can't we prioritise our canon?

Why can't we, at least in our software, turn saints and/or martyrs on and off as required?

(Who knows if one can actually turn saints and/or martyrs off?)

Unifying Verbum and Logos should be an aspiration not least because it encourages unity. I seem to remember that somebody else thought unity a good idea.

I agree with all of this, but there are significant numbers of users who would not. 

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 16 2021 10:09 AM

Mark:

JT (alabama24):
There are some significant differences

I understand all that, and I am sure that was the original idea behind a second product.  But now?  We have various packages...reformed packages, baptist packages, Orthodox packages, academic packages.  Why can't Verbum be another denominational package? I buy Verbum products and it incorporates into Logos.  If you buy Logos products, it incorporates into Verbum.  I have a birthday and get a Verbum birthday credit.  Usually I get a Logos credit.  To me, it is confusing...just like introducing Noet (now obsolete) was confusing.  And it causes the problem MJ brings up.  The fact is, I would like to have the Catholic topic index...and lo and behold...in Logos, I have it!  Why do Verbum customers not have links to FL Logos groups?

 The libraries are one thing... the software functionality is quite another. I think Mike‘s suggestion is good... You could keep the two diverse apps which would have  different default settings, but have the ability to turn on the other. I < think > that would make most happy. 

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DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 16 2021 10:48 AM

JT (alabama24):
I agree with all of this, but there are significant numbers of users who would not. 

I doubt most care to share ... FL seems to see the problem as a market-issue and internally re-badging. They never mentally recovered from the pre-Christmas-Eve masacre.

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SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 16 2021 1:22 PM

Mark:
JT (alabama24):
There are some significant differences
I understand all that, and I am sure that was the original idea behind a second product.  But now?  We have various packages...reformed packages, baptist packages, Orthodox packages, academic packages.  Why can't Verbum be another denominational package?

I will give you an answer that will be simple and true but likely unsatisfying to you. It will, at least, have the advantage of abstracting away from Verbum's special features, present or future.

  1. Verbum is targeted at Catholics.
  2. Most Catholics who might buy Verbum would never buy non-Catholic Bible/theology study software/resources. Almost no Catholics in a position to recommend Verbum to other Catholics--parish priests, diocesan bishops, theology professors, etc.--would ever publicly or widely endorse non-Catholic Bible/theology study software/resources, even if they themselves were personally using them. In addition, most relevant Catholic organizations, including publishers and post-secondary institutions, are unlikely to support/work with non-Catholic Bible/theology study software/resource providers.
  3. If Verbum were to be replaced by (e.g.) "Logos 10 Catholic" packages, products, and marketing, for all relevant intents and purposes, from a Catholic perspective, this would be non-Catholic Bible/theology study software/resource, because Faithlife the company and Logos the brand are non-Catholic.

Tl;dr: Merging Verbum into Logos would lose Faithlife most of its present and potential future Catholic customers, product endorsers, and partner organizations.

Why my preceding answer is true is much more complicated and difficult to properly understand from a non-Catholic perspective than is that answer, and the anecdotal counter-examples to 2. that I'm sure could be provided would be, as they say,' exceptions that prove the rule'.

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SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 16 2021 1:34 PM

Ken McGuire:

JT (alabama24):
I am sure that there are many Catholics who would prefer not to have devotionals by Luther and Calvin pop up.

As a Lutheran, I have certainly run into a few Roman Catholics who react strongly against anything with the names of Luther or Calvin. But[....]

Relevant resource from Faithlife here: Martin Luther: Catholic Critical Analysis and Praise

Here is an excerpt from the (Catholic) author's introduction:

Dave Armstrong:
Lastly, the reader may wonder (in all fairness) about my own personal opinion (as a committed orthodox Catholic, and Catholic apologist) of Martin Luther. I’m happy to comply with such a desire. I disagree with the man’s theology (that is, where he departs from Catholic orthodoxy) and some of the ways in which he went about things. But I do not regard Luther (like many Catholic biographers and critics throughout history) as an essentially “evil” or “bad” man. I don’t deny his good intentions and sincerity at all (though I often question his wisdom and foresight, as will be evident).
I actually admire Martin Luther in many ways. I love his passion and boldness and bravery in standing up for what he believed. I always admire people who do that, unless the stand they take is unquestionably evil. One can respect such a person without necessarily agreeing with the specific cause or belief that he or she espouses. One can be wrong for the right reasons, and right for the wrong reasons.
I’ve written extensively about Martin Luther, and maintain perhaps the largest web page on the Internet devoted to Luther and Lutheranism, from a Catholic perspective. It may surprise some to learn that among these many papers (written over the past seventeen years) are about twenty, as of writing [2008], where I defend Luther against myths and bum raps, cite him in agreement, or take a fairly neutral stance towards his opinion.

In one fictional, Plato-inspired dialogue I even portrayed Martin Luther quite positively (and downright affectionately), as a sort of (saved) “wise old man”. I’ve even—on occasion—received unsolicited letters of commendation from Lutheran pastors for such efforts.


If that sounds interesting to you, the book is not expensive. If not, carry on!

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