Where are my note files?

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Jim | Forum Activity | Posted: Fri, Aug 6 2010 3:56 PM

I have a separate note file for most books of the NT.

I right click on a passage in Ephesians and want to add a note to my Ephesians note file, but the only note files listed in the pop-up are my Titus and Matthew files. I recently had them open but they are now closed.

It appears that I have to stop and go open the note file then come back and right-click and add the note. I don't understand what determines which note files are listed in the pop-up menu. Whatever it is, isn't convenient.

L3 allowed me to directly select what note file I wanted to add to note to. That was fast an efficient.

Am I missing something or is Logos?

Have a great day,
jmac

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 6 2010 4:27 PM

Jim:
Am I missing something or is Logos?

Inclusive or exclusive or? Stick out tongue Okay, what you are offered is all currently open files or the last open files. You do have go open the relevant files. Various suggestions to change this behavior have been made. I'm not sure there is even a consensus yet.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 654
Jim | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 7 2010 7:21 AM

MJ. Smith:
what you are offered is all currently open files or the last open files.

OK. Thanks for clarifying that.

MJ. Smith:
I'm not sure there is even a consensus yet.

So they take out a feature that we're used to and works logically and acceptably and then want consensus before doing anything? This seems like a "mud-on-the-wall" approach. Do a smattering of everything and see how many people complain about the parts of the wall that didn't get covered. Sorry for the cynicism. I'm getting tired of all the holes, but I'll persevere.

Have a great day,
jmac

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 7 2010 11:24 AM

Jim:
and then want consensus before doing anything?

I don't know how Logos feels about consensus as a whole. However, since the release of L4 they have moved items on which there was consensus ahead of items on their missing features list ... so there is now concern among the users who depend on the missing features that they have had to wait too long. There have been a smattering of complaints about the need to open a note or clipping file with various assumptions about how it currently works and how it should work. But without a consensus and a "critical mass" behind that consensus, I wouldn't want Logos to change their priorities. Everyone is having to wait for some feature or tweak that seems critical to them ... including myself, unfortunately.Sad

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 7 2010 12:58 PM

I'm sorry for the inconvenience.

There a a million ways you can use almost any software package, and we weren't aware of all the ways people used Logos. So any change is bound to break someone's methodology.

We changed the way notes on right-click worked because of a general consensus in user interface design that "cascading fly-out menus" are a bad idea. (They take too much precision mouse movement, are too easy to "fall off of", etc.)

Logos 3 loaded notes in a way that encouraged many note files for performance reasons. Logos 4 doesn't, and we anticipated most people would have only a few note files, organized by type of study. (Devotional, personal, Sunday sermon, etc.) So we decided to show -- I believe -- the most recently few Note files on the right-click menu. This avoids the fly-out sub-menu, and (we though) met the most likely needs without recreating a massive list of every note file in every right-click menu. (We also looked at stats that told us most users only had 2-3 note files.)

I can see how this messes up your "one note file per book" methodology, but I think it's not a "hole" in Logos 4, it's just a different interface.

Now that Logos 4 doesn't have the note file size / performance issues of 3, do you still need to keep notes "per book"?

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 7 2010 11:11 PM

 

Hi Bob

Thanks for the note.

Bob Pritchett:
Now that Logos 4 doesn't have the note file size / performance issues of 3, do you still need to keep notes "per book"?

This raises the question of how to move 'notes "per book"' to a more consolidated set of notes.

For example, when reading through John's gospel devotionally, I made a notesfile per pericope. Reading through Isaiah I am just using one notesfile for the book. I haven't yet moved to having one notesfile for all devotional reading.

I was thinking about moving all of the notesfiles from John into a single one but couldn't see any automated way of doing it.

For those who have many more notesfile than I have this could prove a barrier to moving to the model you are outlining above even with the performance issues being addressed.

Graham

Posts 2712
DominicM | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 8 2010 1:22 AM

The only way would be to open the 2 notes side by side, and drag and drop them across.

 I would also prefer this handled with Logos 4, but am currently writing/testing a note merging/export program.. but it is proving to be a pain.. and may be a while.. 

 

Never Deprive Anyone of Hope.. It Might Be ALL They Have

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 8 2010 1:44 AM

DominicM:
The only way would be to open the 2 notes side by side, and drag and drop them across.

Dominic

I see that this would work for the content but not sure it would cater for the "Bible links"

In other words, I don't see how I could maintain my links between my Bible translation and my notes during this transfer.

Graham

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DominicM | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 8 2010 4:08 AM

Yes am not talking about content but whole note.

left click the note between the yellow square and title/reference keep mouse down and then drag the whole note over to second notefile, cursor should chage to drag/drop icon when you get to new destination release mouse

the links should remain intact, they do for me

HTH

Never Deprive Anyone of Hope.. It Might Be ALL They Have

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 8 2010 11:49 PM

Thanks Dominic

Didn't know you could do that - very helpful

Graham

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tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 9 2010 5:58 AM

Hi Bob,

Because I am someone who is still using L3 99.95% of the time, and I am using L3 because of notes in L4, I thought I would give you my two cents.

Bob Pritchett:
Now that Logos 4 doesn't have the note file size / performance issues of 3, do you still need to keep notes "per book"?

I have 27 note files, and when (if) I move to L4, I will not be merging my files together. Therefore, I do not plan on changing my methodology. I am simply not willing to put the time into changing my methodology because the program interface has changed.

Bob Pritchett:
We also looked at stats that told us most users only had 2-3 note files.

I do not know where y'all got your stats (I know that I do not let any program report stats - it is a privacy issue for me, and you can see my other post concerning privacy and L4). My question to you is why do most people only have two or three note files? Is it because they do not take notes? Or is it from the fact that the note function in L3 is soooooo poor that they used other programs? Anyway, here is some info on my note files:

Out of my 27 files, I use 13 of them for my pericope/sermon prep. I have four note files for year a, four for year b, four for year c, and one misc. note file. Each note file that I have setup for each year of the lectionary year contains different information, and each note file will have one to 40 notes for each reading (four to 160 notes for each Sunday). So my note files (for my sermon prep) have somewhere between 200 and 8000 notes, and I would say that the average note length is between two and three pages.

Bob Pritchett:
We changed the way notes on right-click worked because of a general consensus in user interface design that "cascading fly-out menus" are a bad idea. (They take too much precision mouse movement, are too easy to "fall off of", etc.)

Very true, and this is why I think Microsoft moved away from the way it shows programs. I think displaying the open/most recent used note files is a good change, but I also think that adding an option that allows us to scroll through our note files is also a good thing.

Thanks again Bob for listing to your users.

 

Posts 654
Jim | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 9 2010 3:33 PM

 

Bob Pritchett:
I'm sorry for the inconvenience.

Your comments seem logical at first glance, but leave out information that would lead to other conclusions.

Bob Pritchett:
"cascading fly-out menus" are a bad idea. (They take too much precision mouse movement, are too easy to "fall off of", etc.)

I  wholeheartedly agree when it takes more than one fly-out to arrive at your destination. But you could include a scrolling feature in the first fly-out for the note file selection just like you already do in the File menu. Furthermore, your current method is far more disruptive if the user hasn't already loaded or recently used the destination file.

Bob Pritchett:
...Logos 4 doesn't [have L3 performance problems], and we anticipated most people would have only a few note files, organized by type of study.

That was probably your initial design wish. But I don't think you thought it through well enough, nor did you come through on it.  When I started using L4 in 12/09 the whole notes system was intolerably slow and didn't lend itself to any useful organization. So judging by the forum posts on the topic, those of us that are using notes in L4 have struggled with finding a way that fits what's available.

A few improvements have been made in the last 8 months, but not enough to justify your wish becoming reality. For example if a guide shows hits in one of my note files, I get the whole note file, not the notes that caused the hits. That isn't too helpful. If you really had high performance and as good organization to showing notes results, perhaps your wish of having few note files would be realizable. I wouldn't mind it, but you aren't anywhere close to providing that good of a user interface and organizational structure yet.

For example if you want to implement your concept, why not do away with the entire concept of multiple note and clipping files. Have one invisible note database that includes your concept of clippings. Allow notes to have tags, categories and other user defined indexes. Allow the user to create their own taxonomy structure (adding to a basic default one)  of tags/categories etc. Allow each note to be shareable or unshareable (private or public). Then provide an interface for searching, collecting and presenting notes so a user defined collection of them can be presented for printing, exporting or copying. All this seems right in your technological expertise.

When it comes to analysis of scripture through searching, linking and displaying Bible related resources, you have stepped way out above the crowd in creating a product that makes clever and sophisticated application of complex technology and as a result you have a customer base that wants that level of data mining available (even if they don't use it all).  You must have a range of customers from ones doing simple studies to people doing advanced research. The point is that the tool will take you all the way to advanced research.

But you seem to miss a commensurate level of innovation at what I would consider a basic, but useful means of collecting the results of that research for further use in whatever project I have in mind. In notes you don't take us to the "advanced research" level of usefulness. I was hoping that Logos 4 would make notes really more useful than L3. I'm not looking for advanced word processing, just a way to collect and access my accumulated research on a topic to review, print, export , or link to other programs for final presentation.

I know you're going to say that other people want presentation editing etc. But the fact is that you have to collect and organize your research before that step, so at least do a better job at that and one that is consistent with your wish.

 

 

 

 

 

Have a great day,
jmac

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Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 9 2010 3:49 PM

Jim:

          .........    why not do away with the entire concept of multiple note and clipping files. Have one invisible note database that includes your concept of clippings. Allow notes to have tags, categories and other user defined indexes. Allow the user to create their own taxonomy structure (adding to a basic default one)  of tags/categories etc. Allow each note to be shareable or unshareable (private or public). Then provide an interface for searching, collecting and presenting notes so a user defined collection of them can be presented for printing, exporting or copying. All this seems right in your technological expertise.

Jim, Thanks for that Idea!  *smile*     First time I've ever thought in that direction.  A totally new concept for me!  Will mull over it a bit ...   , of course,    but am thankful for your thinking  ...       Peace and Joy in the Lord to you!   *smile*

 

 

 

 

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 9 2010 4:14 PM

Bob Pritchett:
Logos 3 loaded notes in a way that encouraged many note files for performance reasons. Logos 4 doesn't

Unfortunately, I seem to get noticeable performance issues on large note files still - although the situation is improving. However, performance is not a determining factor in the size of my note files L3 or L4. I have different note files for different types of information that support different projects.  I divide so that I can look at search results and know instantly if the note is applicable to my current need.

Bob Pritchett:
We also looked at stats that told us most users only had 2-3 note files.

Unfortunately that tells you neither how many kept notes outside of Logos or why those who greatly exceeded the average used the files. Generally Logos tries to err on the side of the power user; in this case it did not.

However, I think that the access of user created files has its roots higher up the chain. It does not take many passage lists, notes, clippings, sentence diagrams, prayer lists etc. for the current file access to require a prodigious memory or patience to scroll through an unordered list. It requires a great deal of forethought in personal naming conventions. Not only can the file not be opened by a right click (which is fine by me) but when I go to open it via the file tab it can take forever to find.

My proposal is:

  • add the ability to open the file tab from the right click menu
  • open the file tab already filtered for notes only, clippings only etc.
  • because we already know that the desired file is not the most recent nor currently open, present the file list in alphabetical order.
  • maintain the ability to type a partial file title in to search for the file

This is one click more than others are requesting but it has a significant advantage in that it also addresses some of the issues related to the file tab. Give this proposal a few months trial and see if people still feel they need a faster shortcut. They may - I don't know.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 9 2010 4:19 PM

Yes!  Good idea, MJ!

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

Posts 654
Jim | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 9 2010 4:51 PM

MJ. Smith:

Bob Pritchett:
We also looked at stats that told us most users only had 2-3 note files.

Unfortunately that tells you neither how many kept notes outside of Logos or why those who greatly exceeded the average used the files. Generally Logos tries to err on the side of the power user; in this case it did not.

 

Really good observation, MJ.

 

Have a great day,
jmac

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 9 2010 4:56 PM

Milford Charles Murray:

Yes!  Good idea, MJ!

http://logos.uservoice.com/forums/42823-logos-bible-software-4/suggestions/977039-improve-file-access-via-right-click-link-to-file-t

or http://logos.uservoice.com/pages/42823-logos-bible-software-4?filter=top&page=9

are now the official "say you like it" spots.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 9 2010 5:38 PM

MJ. Smith:
present the file list in alphabetical order.

Preach it sister!!!!

Posts 226
Tim | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 16 2010 9:02 PM

Bob Pritchett:
Logos 3 loaded notes in a way that encouraged many note files for performance reasons. Logos 4 doesn't, and we anticipated most people would have only a few note files, organized by type of study

Bob- I think I have to agree with some of the other comments regarding this statement. I use Logos for seminary and so I keep notes for all of my classes in note files. I too have a 1-note-per-book methodology. I have had to because in studying I follow an exegetical process for every verse in a book! Some verses I have 5-10 Word doc pages worth of notes. For me it is not a performance issue, it is a matter of organization. It is simply not feasable to have only a couple note files. As it is with the new format I struggle to find my notes for a specific verse when in a note file. Having the option to collapse helps a little but not enough.  It seems that having a means to organize and easly retrieve our notes data is where the primary complaint seems to be. 

 L4 is an amazing lbrary & study system. It would seem to me that if you all treated note data with the same ingenuity with which you have approached handling other forms of data, a solution to organizing and handling notes could be found. For example, take the library interface. If you kept all the user data in one database and created an interface similar to the library, one could sort, search, and filter to our obsessive hearts' content. And, comparable to the info button, you could set it up so that once a particular note has been selected, a simple click of the mouse would make the data of that note is accessible to the right (or left for that matter). Something like this would hopefully be simple to setup using the library interface as a concept template and would be flexible enough to accomodate many different ideas of how notes should be used.

I am also going to post this idea in suggestions.

Posts 164
Rick Harrell | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 19 2010 12:50 PM

I used note files extensively with Logos 3 - my sermons, much of my research, all my Inductive study work were in notes. The convenience and speed were great.

I use notes in 4 just as extensively, but without the speed and ease. I do the final draft of messages in Word, but all my reasearch still is in notes, and it is painful and difficult. The lag time when typing, the way that notes bog down / slow down as they get larger, the cumbersome way to create them compared to Logos 3 has been my greatest disappointment with 4.

I have multiple note files for each book I preach through (at this point Genesis through Philippians) One for chapter notes, one for misc. observations, etc.)

I keep hoping that there will be greater speed and functionality in Logos 4 notes, but it has been very disappointing and frustrating.

Sorry, but I still need to keep notes per book, per topic, per word study.

 

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