More books that Logos shouldn't reprint...

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Bohuslav Wojnar | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 11 2010 11:23 PM

Just my 2 cents of non-expert observation:  Gary IMHO touched very important and practical points we as pastors need to realize. It needs to be more obvious on the Logos page of the resource what is the time frame and background information for the resources like Thayer's etc. I have Thayer's lexicon in paper version, so my automatic reaction was to get it in Logos too. I was helped however by some discussion like this one to realize some pitfalls of just putting that lexicon (and similar resources which might be obsolete already) into the same line with my other, more current and better resources.

I believe it is not a matter of having it in Logos or not, but rather giving us some more information that would put it into the right perspective from the point of view the average Logos user.

Another matter is, if producing that kind of resources is somehow slowing down the the production of more needed resources, than I would say, don't do that Logos, focus on more needed and useful ones. However, if Logos has enough technical and human resources to produce those less useful (from the common user perspective) resources without slowing down the production of current, up-to date tools and resources, than it is fine with me. I just need to be more selective in choosing the resources I really need to buy. And my wife would say amen to that last point. Smile

Thank you Gary for that thread.

Bohuslav

Posts 1931
Donovan R. Palmer | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 12 2010 12:16 AM

Very thought provoking and enjoyable thread. Improvements in Logos 4 do help us with our growing libraries. That said, sometimes 'less is more'. For some users, the morass of information can be a hindrance to focused effective study.  A library of 1,000 carefully selected resources can be just as effective as a library of 5,000 resources of varying quality... particularly if it creates a need for the user to wade through a lot of dated or outlying information that is not required.  To that end, threads like this are very useful to provoke users to think about what they need and why they need it.  I also think the commentary and reference materials/websites that many have referred to on these forums are going to be even more invaluable to helping users decide where to invest precious resources.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 12 2010 12:28 AM

Matthew C Jones:
Devil   Let me play devil's advocate here:
1) The Calvinists are requesting all Arminian works be purged.
2) The Arminians are likewise requesting the Calvinist works be removed.
3) The Catholics would agree to the two previous requests.
4) The (non-Messianic) Orthodox Jews don't have much use for the Catholic resources.

5) The Samaritans don't have much use for the Prophets and Writings

When you get done accommodating all the wold-be censors, all you are left with is the Torah.Big Smile

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 12 2010 2:14 AM

6) Could I request the purging of all feline literature? I don't like felines.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 12 2010 10:25 AM

Bohuslav Wojnar:
I believe it is not a matter of having it in Logos or not, but rather giving us some more information that would put it into the right perspective from the point of view the average Logos user.

More information regarding the usefulness to the average Logos user.   I strongly agree.

Bohuslav Wojnar:
Another matter is, if producing that kind of resources is somehow slowing down the the production of more needed resources, than I would say, don't do that Logos, focus on more needed and useful ones. However, if Logos has enough technical and human resources to produce those less useful (from the common user perspective) resources without slowing down the production of current, up-to date tools and resources, than it is fine with me.

It is possible the cheap, well-known titles are driving the baseline profits to enable production of higher priced works from Brill, Cambridge Anchor-Yale, or whatever. It is like the grocery store offering cheap macaroni & cheese and an expensive. but tasty brand. The store definitely sells more of the cheap stuff. Especially to those who would rather buy Logos resources than eat fancy. Embarrassed  
(beans + ramen noodles+ hot dogs + mac & cheese = Portfolio Edition Big Smile)

If Logos can make lots of money producing non-Biblical resources like
The Century Dictionary    http://www.logos.com/products/prepub/details/6749
The Harvard Classics & Fiction Collection    http://www.logos.com/products/prepub/details/3662 
The Complete Works of William Shakespeare    http://www.logos.com/products/prepub/details/6336
The Iliad in Greek and Translation   http://www.logos.com/products/details/3320 

then I wish them great success. These resources don't add a lot to Bible study but I'm happy to see them.

My problem is too much interest in too many subjects. My wife can attest to that.

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Posts 138
s f-k | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 12 2010 10:52 AM

Matthew C Jones:
beans + ramen noodles+ hot dogs + mac & cheese = Portfolio Edition

I like your math. Unfortunately, I think there's an error in my equation: rice and beans + ramen noodles + hot dogs + mac & cheese = Bible Study Library!!! This is SO unfair! 

Costa Rica

ESEPA Seminary

Posts 138
s f-k | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 12 2010 11:31 AM

As one of Gary's students, it isn't in my best interest to disagree with him... so I won't! Stick out tongue (Just kidding, Gary!)

In all seriousness, I believe he makes a valid point. The Logos advertisements of the kind of resources in question can be misleading. Thankfully, I'm in school, so I have professors, like Gary, who can point me in the right direction. Not so for many people, and they're not going to ask on the forums about a bunch of resources to see what's up-to-date and what isn't. If it weren't for him, I would have spent precious dollars on resources that would benefit me little to nothing. If I were doing research on the development of Biblical Backgrounds studies or the history of Greek lexicography, then I would purchase Hastings and Sophocles and every other relevant, extant resource that I could afford. But I'm just a student trying to exegete the biblical text as faithfully as possible. I'm not a scholar who has so much information committed to memory that he can merely read an entry in a given resource and know whether or not the information is accurate.

The great majority of Logos users (and I'm assuming here; I don't have the statistics) are not widely read scholars, and could be easily convinced that Vine, Hastings, Thayer, Sophocles, etc. are still wholly academically reliable resources, even though they were written however long ago. Most people don't have a basis of comparison to be able to decide what's reliable and what's not. How many times have I heard from the pulpit and elsewhere that the aorist tense is a once-for-all action, never to be repeated?! The only reason I know that's NOT the case is because I'm in seminary. Recent grammars correct this misconception and Wallace even gives some background on it, yet it continues to be taught.

So, offer the resources, fine, but it wouldn't hurt to look into being a bit more non-scholar friendly with the resource advertisements. I LOVE Logos and use it almost daily, and I know they're not trying to fool people just to sell more books. But, as good as Logos is, there's always room for improvement.

Again, this isn't about offering resources, but about resource description.

Blessings!

Costa Rica

ESEPA Seminary

Posts 140
Gary Shogren | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 12 2010 12:00 PM

Michael Childs:
I believe we have the common sense to know these works are dated.

I would be very glad to know that were the case. I'm sure you have the common sense! However...google "thayer lexicon" and you'll get an eyeful... don't know, you might even come up with hits for "Thayers is the best lexicon".

Thanks for your thoughts!

Posts 140
Gary Shogren | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 12 2010 12:33 PM

Donovan R. Palmer:
That said, sometimes 'less is more'. For some users, the morass of information can be a hindrance to focused effective study

You know Donovan, I resonate with your thought, being something of a minimalist myself. For a sermon I rarely use more than 3 well-chosen commentaries. On Luke 15 for this weekend, probably Calvin, Nolland and one other (I'm not at home and am limited to what I have on Logos). Maybe Chrysostom. Or maybe the unabridged Matthew Henry. I tell my students: besides reference tools, use 5 commentaries for an exegesis paper, 3 for a sermon, and emphasize quality over quantity.

To me, using one excellent lexicon (BDAG) is better than using two (if we're talking about BDAG + Thayer).

Posts 140
Gary Shogren | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 12 2010 12:54 PM

Michael Childs:

You might consider the remote possibility that God spoke to some folks before our generation. 

 

Please, no sarcasm, okay?

If you've read what I've written on this thread, Michael, you know that I'm constantly reading old works. Ask my student, Stefán (he's shared above), I think he'd tell you a hair-raising tale of how much I make my students read the ancients.

But, if I were to say today, for example, Calvin says that this is the best information available on a word, so that's that, I would be afraid that Calvin would appear before me to tell me "Don't be so silly!"

 

Posts 847
Praiser | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 12 2010 1:19 PM

Gary Shogren:
However...google "thayer lexicon" and you'll get an eyeful...

Some results on a Google Search on "Thayer lexicon" follow...

From Wikipedia :

"In February 1891 Thayer published a lecture in which he expressed disagreement with the position of Biblical inerrancy, asserting that his own acceptance of various errors of history and science in the Bible did not materially detract from his belief in the overall soundness of Christianity.

This is the least of the information from the google search.
Gary, I wasn't purchasing the resource, but thank you for a heads-up on Thayer.
I recommend each do a google search to see what viewpoint Thayer was really coming from in his comments.

I have to add this one taken from  Can You Trust Your Lexicon? which also quotes the Publisher's Introduction to Thayer's:

"The following is the exact quotation from the Publisher's introduction to Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon:

    "A word of caution is necessary. Thayer was a Unitarian, and the errors of this sect occasionally come through in the explanatory notes. The reader should be alert for both subtle and blatant denials of such doctrines as the Trinity (Thayer regarded Christ as a mere man and the Holy Spirit as an impersonal force emanating from God), the inherent and total depravity of fallen human nature, the eternal punishment of the wicked, and Biblical inerrancy. When defining metamelomai [the Greek word for regret], Thayer refuses to draw a clear distinction between this word and metanoeo [the Greek word for a change of mind - repentance]. Underlying this refusal is the view that man is inherently good, needing Christ not as a Savior but only as an example.""

     

Posts 140
Gary Shogren | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 12 2010 3:12 PM

Praiser:

"A word of caution is necessary. Thayer was a Unitarian, and the errors of this sect occasionally come through in the explanatory notes. The reader should be alert for both subtle and blatant denials of such doctrines as the Trinity (Thayer regarded Christ as a mere man and the Holy Spirit as an impersonal force emanating from God), the inherent and total depravity of fallen human nature, the eternal punishment of the wicked, and Biblical inerrancy. When defining metamelomai [the Greek word for regret], Thayer refuses to draw a clear distinction between this word and metanoeo [the Greek word for a change of mind - repentance]. Underlying this refusal is the view that man is inherently good, needing Christ not as a Savior but only as an example.""

I have seen this, Praiser. My only concern is the reasoning that SINCE Thayer was a unitarian, THEREFORE he wasn't a good lexicographer. People say the same thing about Bauer and Danker - "why use a lexicon written by apostates?" says one site I've got open. These statements tend to be passed rapidly from site to site on the internet, until no-one is sure who said it originally, and upon what basis.

I don't accept that logic, which is a form of begging the question. The real question should be "Did Thayer's theology harm the accuracy of his lexicon?"

It's important that we don't draw conclusions about his theology, unless the data are clear and not a surmise. That is: "Underlying this refusal is the view that man is inherently good, needing Christ not as a Savior but only as an example" - did Thayer say this, or is this someone's inference...? Maybe it's true, but I wouldn't accept it as a given without clear proof. The page where I found this same paragraph goes on to say: "I'll take the men who translated the King James Bible and the God who preserved His word over any dozen lost apostate men who write lexicons. Don't let the lexicon, or those that trust in it, deceive you. Stick with your King James Bible."

Posts 140
Gary Shogren | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 12 2010 3:23 PM

By the way, speaking of wonderful ancient sources: Logos has the Ancient Christian Commentary series, which is very useful. And I flipped when I saw that IVP had published Ambrosiaster's commentary on Paul's epistles from the Latin - I know of no other English version of this vital ancient work, a sane and literal commentary that influenced the Western church for about 1000 years. Logos doesn't have it, maybe it'll add it in sometime. The Ante-Nice Fathers and the Nicene-Post-Nicene Fathers is also great to have since it's searchable, despite the old English and the incompleteness.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 12 2010 5:07 PM

Gary Shogren:
(I shamelessly point to ...yet again)

from the guidelines:

Please do not use our forums to

  • sell or give away anything or link to anything you’re selling or giving away—including Logos products
  • promote or link to competitors
  • point people to other places that sell Logos-compatible products
  • advertise yourself, your business, your ministry, your website, etc. (a tasteful link in your forum signature is acceptable)

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 140
Gary Shogren | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 12 2010 5:25 PM

MJ. Smith:

Gary Shogren:
(I shamelessly point to ...yet again)

from the guidelines:

Please do not use our forums to

  • sell or give away anything or link to anything you’re selling or giving away—including Logos products
  • promote or link to competitors
  • point people to other places that sell Logos-compatible products
  • advertise yourself, your business, your ministry, your website, etc. (a tasteful link in your forum signature is acceptable)

My mistake, sorry!

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 12 2010 6:05 PM

Stefan Feliz-Kent:

Matthew C Jones:
beans + ramen noodles+ hot dogs + mac & cheese = Portfolio Edition

I like your math. Unfortunately, I think there's an error in my equation: rice and beans + ramen noodles + hot dogs + mac & cheese = Bible Study Library!!! This is SO unfair!

You gotta lose the rice to move up to Portfolio. It almost killed me since I could eat rice three times a day.

Stefan Feliz-Kent:
are still wholly academically reliable resources, even though they were written however long ago. Most people don't have a basis of comparison to be able to decide what's reliable and what's not.

"..wholly academically reliable resources," ------  Well now. Did not all the scholars of the day tell us those resources were the latest and most reliable we could get based on the newest discoveries and textual criticism? Today we have the latest scholars telling us just how bad and unreliable the last century's scholars were. I bet in 50 years the majority of today's experts will be held in disrespect by our grandchildren's contemporary scholars. Somebody has to be wrong in this formula. And if scholars were wrong in 1900, it isn't a stretch to think some could be in error today. But is it not the natural inclination of a scholar to think everyone else is wrong and himself the only repository of wisdom & truth?

I still want to see the big picture: Give me Thayer, Robertson, Kittel, Gingrich, & Runge. Then let me enjoy the pursuit of Bible study. Any other way is like a guided safari hunt in an African game preserve. The real big game hunters tracked in the wild. Besides that, Dr. Heisler says I am smarter than a lexicon!  http://blog.logos.com/archives/2010/06/you_are_smarter_than_a_lexicon.html  He ought to know. He is a scholar & a PhD.

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Mike Aubrey | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 12 2010 8:02 PM

Matthew C Jones:
Did not all the scholars of the day tell us those resources were the latest and most reliable we could get based on the newest discoveries and textual criticism? Today we have the latest scholars telling us just how bad and unreliable the last century's scholars were.

To repeat myself... Here's one of today's scholars talking about another scholar from 150 years ago:

"The fact that Tregelles comes so well out of this comparison with [the texts of] Lachmann, Tischendorf, Westcott and Hort, and the Editio Critica Maior suggests that we need to reconsider the usual view of nineteen century textual criticism as a linear development culminating in The New Testament in the Original Greek. It may be that we have overlooked the significance and standard of Tregelles' achievement."

--David C. Parker

The essay is on google books, though not all is available. This particular quote is available here on the final page: http://books.google.com/books?id=C7ZLQns00MAC&lpg=PP1&dq=david%20c%20parker%20collected&pg=PA215#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://www.logos.com/products/prepub/details/6615

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 12 2010 8:46 PM

Michael Aubrey:

Here's one of today's scholars talking about another scholar from 150 years ago:

"The fact that Tregelles comes so well out of this comparison with [the texts of] Lachmann, Tischendorf, Westcott and Hort, and the Editio Critica Maior suggests that we need to reconsider the usual view of nineteen century textual criticism as a linear development culminating in The New Testament in the Original Greek. It may be that we have overlooked the significance and standard of Tregelles' achievement."

--David C. Parker

I am pleased I am getting my message through to the scholars. Big Smile But a 3 to 3 tie being newsworthy only proves my point: the present norm is to reject the previous scholars in favor of our contemporaries. Parker said as much in your quote.

Thank you for sharing Parker's work. It is refreshing.

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Mike Aubrey | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 12 2010 8:56 PM

Matthew C Jones:
I am pleased I am getting my message through to the scholars. Big Smile But a 3 to 3 tie being newsworthy only proves my point: the present norm is to reject the previous scholars in favor of our contemporaries. Parker said as much in your quote.

Indeed, and both Parker and myself lament the situation -- as does Danker in the quote from him I posted quite a bit earlier on this same thread.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 12 2010 9:11 PM

Michael Aubrey:
Indeed, and both Parker and myself lament the situation -- as does Danker in the quote from him I posted quite a bit earlier on this same thread.

I re-read that earlier post carefully and agree heartily. I especially liked these sentences:

Michael Aubrey:

But we do want people to know:

Old books still had value.
The old books we produce were the best of what was available for the time.
We do this because we want to follow Danker's warning about ignoring old works. We're a company of employees who love books and making them available is 1st priority -- all of them.

emphasis mine.

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