Can we get logging to default to "on"?

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Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Posted: Fri, Aug 27 2010 8:56 AM | Locked

I'm not seeing the wisdom to not having logging on by default.  The Mac version does log by default.  Every time someone comes here with a problem, we have to explain how to turn on logging. 

Could this be changed for the next release?  or am I just missing something?

Wiki Links: Enabling Logging / Detailed Search Help - MacBook Pro (2014), ThinkPad E570

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TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 27 2010 9:09 AM | Locked

I would agree that it needs to be on by default in every beta version.  But  not for gold releases.  

Logging does slow down the system even by a small degree, and on older systems (more than a year or two old) that seems to be significant.  

Hmm Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 

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Danny Parker | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 27 2010 9:14 AM | Locked

Disagree. Performance is a major issue for all users. Why confuse new beta performance with logging slow downs? Maybe need to make instructions more visible instead.

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Danny Parker | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 27 2010 9:16 AM | Locked

Maybe make it a sticky on the Beta forum, or include instructions (or a pointer to them)  in every release announcement.

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Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 27 2010 9:19 AM | Locked

Danny Parker:

Disagree. Performance is a major issue for all users. Why confuse new beta performance with logging slow downs? Maybe need to make instructions more visible instead.

Well, I haven't ever had logging off long enough to even know if there is a performance benefit.  But logging is necessary enough (even for non-beta users) that if it isn't on by default, it should have a easily seen toggle switch in the Program Settings. (Which I would argue should be set to "on" by default, but easily switched to off)

Wiki Links: Enabling Logging / Detailed Search Help - MacBook Pro (2014), ThinkPad E570

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Bradley Grainger (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 27 2010 10:37 AM | Locked

Todd Phillips:

But logging is necessary enough (even for non-beta users)

The most useful logs that we developers get are the Logos4Crash.txt reports, which are always generated whether logging is on or off. (From my perspective, the main logs often contain a lot of noise, don't necessarily help pinpoint the problem, and do slow down the application. They are still useful in some circumstances, though.)

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 27 2010 10:44 AM | Locked

Bradley's right - from a developers point of view, but not from a support point of view, which is Todd's point.

I wouldn't want logs turned on my default. Useful logs would soon get over-written by less useful ones. But it would be nice to (a) have logging on by default in beta builds, and (b) make it easier to turn on for normal builds.

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 27 2010 6:18 PM | Locked

Danny Parker:
Maybe make it a sticky on the Beta forum

Logs are also relevant outside the beta forum but logging should not be ON by default for reasons already stated.

Have a sticky in each relevant Forum (PC Beta, Logos4 as a minimum) with a title like "Problem reporting: How to produce diagnostic logs". The content should cover:-

  • Why logs are needed
  • Where to find crash reports
  • How and when to enable permanent logging eg. when asked or if a crash does not occur
  • How to upload (compressed) logs

From my (support) point of view logs tell me far more than a crash report especially with minimum information from the user.

Dave
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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 27 2010 6:38 PM | Locked

Bradley Grainger:
The most useful logs that we developers get are the Logos4Crash.txt reports

We know that developers prefer the application to Crash rather than produce a useful messageSmile Will there come a time when crashing can be obviated?

Dave
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Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 27 2010 6:42 PM | Locked

Bradley Grainger:
The most useful logs that we developers get are the Logos4Crash.txt reports, which are always generated whether logging is on or off. (From my perspective, the main logs often contain a lot of noise, don't necessarily help pinpoint the problem, and do slow down the application. They are still useful in some circumstances, though.)

Not every problem is a crash, especially when it comes to performance issues and indexing problems.  Plus, crashes usually get quick attention from the devs, but it's those other nagging problems that the forum users often have to analyze ourselves before Logos staff gets a chance to look at it.

Wiki Links: Enabling Logging / Detailed Search Help - MacBook Pro (2014), ThinkPad E570

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 27 2010 6:59 PM | Locked

Todd Phillips:
Not every problem is a crash

Yes!

Dave
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JimTowler | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 28 2010 7:32 PM | Locked

Dave Hooton:
We know that developers prefer the application to Crash rather than produce a useful messageSmile Will there come a time when crashing can be obviated?

For me, its NASTY that Logos4 always crashes, rather than log something and continue to work correctly (except for whatever thing just failed to load/display/save/whatever)

Please Logos: Fix the application so its not always crashing.

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 28 2010 8:53 PM | Locked

Todd Phillips:
The Mac version does log by default.

Earlier Logos 4 Mac Alpha releases did not log by default - changed in Alpha 18 (no longer needed to download nlog.config file and move to logging folder).

Wonder about set update channel command enhancement - if Beta, enable logging.  If changing from Beta, disable logging.

Keep Smiling Smile

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Bradley Grainger (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 28 2010 10:15 PM | Locked

Dave Hooton:

We know that developers prefer the application to Crash rather than produce a useful messageSmile Will there come a time when crashing can be obviated?

We actually prefer it to crash than corrupt your data. Smile

By definition, when the application crashes, it's in an unanticipated and unknown state."Recovering from a crash would need to move the app from an arbitrary unknown state to a known good state. A botched attempt at recovery could persist bad data to disk (or worse, the sync store). Yes, there is some data loss when the app crashes (e.g., current layout isn't saved), but there's little chance of permanent damage, because all further action is halted.

The beta can be very unstable, but data from Windows Error Reporting indicates that actual crashes in the released version are comparatively rare; we use feedback from the beta and from WER to create service releases to reduce even further the incidence of crashing.

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 28 2010 10:56 PM | Locked

Bradley Grainger:

We actually prefer it to crash than corrupt your data. Smile

Would you like me to add this post to the "Logos Speaks" page on the wiki? Surprise

I'd prefer it to not crash and not corrupt my data. Where I come from, both would be considered Level 1 bugs (highest priority, show-stopping, even recall if it's a common scenario).

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 28 2010 11:36 PM | Locked

Rosie Perera:
Where I come from, both would be considered Level 1 bugs (highest priority, show-stopping, even recall if it's a common scenario).

That has not been my experience with PC software.  Generally, I have a reasonable crash rate in the betas  - my complaint is with the length of time I am down waiting for the standard Windows error report to generate. I also get frustrated at the errors that slip through regression testing. But I think Logos responds very quickly to production crashes now that the product is stable. That said, if I ran Logos development and testing and had an infinite budget I would choose a different development strategy.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 28 2010 11:45 PM | Locked

Bradley Grainger:
We actually prefer it to crash than corrupt your data.

One can conclude that crashes occur only when data corruption is possible; yet many crashes occur because of an invalid state on or after a file read eg. Biblical People crashing on "Holy Spirit". It should be possible to recover gracefully such that one can continue to work from a known state or at least prevent repeated crashing because that name has become the default for accessing BP from the menu. This was the thrust of my question.

Dave
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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 29 2010 12:06 AM | Locked

Dave Hooton:
yet many crashes occur because of an invalid state on or after a file read eg. Biblical People crashing on "Holy Spirit"

This is why a TRY-CATCH is my favorite construct. And why testing requires careful analysis to create the test cases.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Bradley Grainger (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 29 2010 9:28 AM | Locked

Dave Hooton:

Bradley Grainger:
We actually prefer it to crash than corrupt your data.

One can conclude that crashes occur only when data corruption is possible; yet many crashes occur because of an invalid state on or after a file read eg. Biblical People crashing on "Holy Spirit". It should be possible to recover gracefully such that one can continue to work from a known state or at least prevent repeated crashing because that name has become the default for accessing BP from the menu. This was the thrust of my question.

We looked into what it would take to make Logos 4 more like Chrome (where each tab is isolated in a separate process, and if one crashes, just that tab can be closed, not the entire application). Unfortunately, it would be a much bigger undertaking than we're able to tackle right now, so we have to stick with the IE7 model (where a crash takes down the entire application).

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 29 2010 7:15 PM | Locked

Bradley Grainger:
so we have to stick with the IE7 model (where a crash takes down the entire application).

Are you stating that a developer cannot manage the conditions for a crash irrespective of the model ie. you cannot interrogate a Null Exception before it crashes?

Dave
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Windows 10 & Android 8

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