Intertextually relationship between Ps 22, 23, 24

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Posts 41
Nelson Yuen | Forum Activity | Posted: Wed, Sep 1 2010 8:02 AM

Some ppls think these 3 Psalms (Ps 22, 23, 24) should be read as one due to their Intertextually relationship.

So, I want to do a search about the topic "Intertextually relationship between Ps 22, 23, 24" in L4, I'm using Scholar's base package. Is there any effective way to make such query?

Thanks!

Posts 8601
TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 1 2010 10:22 AM

Great question Nelson. 

I'm familiar with Ps 20-21 being tied together, less so with 22-24.  Although from the perspective of messianic theme I can see that potential.  I'm sure some others will come along in a moment to add to my pathetic answer, but this is where I would start to investigate the answer....

I would begin by consulting the various commentaries in your library on the Psalms in question, especially the discussion which often precedes the commentary. 

For example if I type Psalm 22:1 into some commentaries, it does indeed jump to the commentary on that verse, but if I then scroll upwards I find that textual issues like this one have been addressed.

 

 

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Posts 63
Scot Jefferies | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 1 2010 10:27 AM

Nelson:
Is there any effective way to make such query?

Nelson, welcome to the Forums.

You can do a Basic Search through all your Library by entering "Intertextual relationship" in the search box.  Searching is found on the home page under the magnifying glass icon.  More on searching is in the Wiki http://wiki.logos.com/Basic_Search

Posts 18634
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 1 2010 11:14 AM

You can do a search for all resources that mention any of those three psalms by using this search syntax:

<ps 22-24>

That will give you a lot of search hits to wade though, though, because it will find any reference to any one of those psalms, not specifically those places where they are discussed in conjunction with each other. To narrow it down a bit you could search for all places where Psalm 22 is discussed AND Psalm 23 and Psalm 24 are also discussed, like this:

<ps 22> <ps 23> <ps 24>

That doesn't actually reduce the number of search hits by much in my library. Next thought is to search for any place were an author is referring to that particular set of psalms as a unit. You'd have to think of all the possible variants on how the author might reference them and use OR to find any one of those options:

"Psalms 22-24" OR "Psalms 22, 23, and 24"

Try also tossing in the words intertextual and intertextuality in your search criteria (I tried turning off "Match all word forms" so it would find either but I'm not sure that works in this case). So, for example, something like this:

<ps 22> <ps 23> <ps 24> AND (intertextual, intertextuality)

One thing I found mentioned which might be of help to you (though it's not available in Logos) is an essay by Nancy L. deClaissé-Walford titled "An Intertextual Reading of Psalms 22, 23, and 24" in The Book of Psalms: Composition and Reception, edited by Peter W. Flint and Patrick D. Miller (Leiden: Brill, 2005), pp. 139–52. It costs over $300 from Amazon.com (http://amzn.com/9004136428)! Maybe you can find a copy through a library? But Questia.com has the entire book in digital format (Questia claims to be "the world's largest online collection of complete books, journals and articles" in the humanities and social sciences; I maintain a membership because I sometimes find things in it that I can't find elsewhere, so it's worth it to me; annual subscription is about $70; you could go for the free trial and see if you can get access to that work).

Barring that, the best I can offer you is this brief quote from a review of that volume, from the Journal of Hebrew Scriptures: "Next, Nancy L. deClaissé-Walford questions the relation of Psalm 22 to its immediate context and argues that through a variety of connections Psalms 22, 23, and 24 together form a 'powerful statement of trust in the LORD.'"

Posts 116
Chris Thompson | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 2 2010 9:17 AM

The greatest evidence I see to support Intertextual relationship is the fact that Christ quoted Psalms 22:1 on the Cross. Whenever possible, it is best to let the Word interpret the Word. Why not go to the Greatest Commentary Contributor for the answer we seek? It is obvious that He was experiencing strength from calling on Scripture. (Many believe in the form of a song.)  We know that the passage we now identify as  Psalms 22 was on His mind in His darkest hour. If we apply a WWJD type of query, Try to imagine His thought process... As we read from 22:1 forward, what would be the end of the song He was singing? 22 describes his last hours, 23 shows the peace He had in that darkest of all hours...(Through total Faith in God,)  And 24 Lays out His reward for that Faith.

Yes...The Greatest Song Ever Sung begins at Psalms 22:1 and ends at 24:10.

How do i know?...The Bible tells me so.

 

 

 

Posts 41
Nelson Yuen | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 2 2010 10:52 AM

wow.. Many thanks for all your help and advise. That is really great to hear number of ways to search & find the answer.  Good hints!

Also, I'm impressed to see Rosie's reply and to shows how L4 offer such search syntax. It definitely helps and you know my pain to see over thousand results if don't have a way to narrow it down. I will have a look the website Questia.com but it seems quite expensive, need to think twice. Let me try it out first. ;-)

BTW, how you find the review of that volume, from the Journal of Hebrew Scriptures? Searching in Questia?

My seminary offers me to access some digital library, such as :-

EBSCO – Religion & Philosophy
ATLA /ATLA Serials
Thomson & Gale - Religion & Philosophy
WorldCat, Wilson Select Plus
Cambridge Journals
Oxford Journals
Sage Journals
Brill Journals

But usually, I just use EBSCO & ATLA. Seems from other library found something quite "different", so I seldom to use those. (I am still at very beginning to start my seminary study, need to get familiar with these tools)

Posts 41
Nelson Yuen | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 2 2010 11:13 AM

Hi Abi,

Thanks,Good insight! I believe that's one of possible reason why these Psalms can be read as one, it builds a complete story.

Indeed, after closely reading three Psalms, I found out that there are a lot repeating words and echos. Such as
Ps 22:23, 24:6 ("Jacob") ; 
Ps 22:24, 24:6 (hide/seek "face") ; 
Ps 22:26, 24:6 ("seek") ;
Ps 22:26, 24:4 (theme of "good heart") ;
Ps 22:27, 24:1 ("earth" belong to LORD);  
Ps 22:3, 24:4 (theme of holy of God) <== not showing very clear

Seems Bible tells me too, they have some relationship between them. (although I still can't find words relationship with Ps 23) But I still not figure what the meaning of these above "connection". Maybe I just imagine too much, maybe it does not have real 'connection', but indeed I still believe they do! That's why I want to find some scholar explainations to prove my finding.

BTW, is it possible to ask L4 to automatically highligh (maybe using visual filter) those Hebrew word (lemma), which repeat more than 1 time in particular passage range? I think it is very useful function. Any Idea?

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 2 2010 12:23 PM

The fact that there are repeated words or themes, does not suggest they should be read as one Psalm.

The fact that no commentator in my Logos4 library (that I've found at least), brings up this as even a possibility, suggests that this is not something on the radar of those whose livelihood it is to study such things. That fact, alone make me skeptical.

The overlapping themes and terms may simply explain why these Psalms were grouped together as they are.

As far as the visual filters idea you brought up, I'm not sure how that would be possible with visual filters as they are now set up.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

Posts 18634
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 2 2010 3:08 PM

Richard DeRuiter:

The fact that there are repeated words or themes, does not suggest they should be read as one Psalm.

The fact that no commentator in my Logos4 library (that I've found at least), brings up this as even a possibility, suggests that this is not something on the radar of those whose livelihood it is to study such things. That fact, alone make me skeptical.

The overlapping themes and terms may simply explain why these Psalms were grouped together as they are.

 

I have to concur with Richard. It doesn't sound like they were initially written as a unit. I think if you study the structure of each one of them (I'm not strong in this area but I'm sure commentators have written on it) you will find that they each have the requisite form to be a stand-alone psalm.

However, that doesn't mean you can't derive great spiritual benefit from reading all three of these Psalms together. Intertextuality is sometimes intended by the original authors and sometimes it's in the eye of the beholder. Since David was the author of all three of those psalms, it is not surprising to see him using similar words and themes. He had those things on his mind a lot. It doesn't necessarily lead to any conclusions about the relationship between these psalms, or whether David intended them to be read together, but one might still be blessed by meditating on the three of them together.

Here's a quote from Israelite Religion and BIblical Theology from an essay on intertextuality between Deuteronomy and Psalms in which I've boldfaced a very good definition of what intertextuality is and what it's useful for: "Is there, in fact, a dialogue that goes on between these two books of the Bible that bids us listen to them together and not simply separately? Is there a conversation between the two great authors of Scripture—Moses and David—that takes place when their primary works—Deuteronomy and Psalms—are looked at together? Is there a larger enterprise of intertextuality that seeks to discern the resonances between the larger segments of Scripture designated by the term ‘book’? It may be premature to generalize about these questions, but I do believe that the biblical books of Deuteronomy and Psalms are amenable to an interactive relationship, capable of creating or evoking a conversation between them that enlarges our perception of both and contributes to a sense of the whole that is Scripture."

So if reading these three psalms together evokes a "conversation" between them that contributes more to our understanding of each one of them and to Scripture as a whole, then by all means, go for it!

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