1) Why Logos and 2) Why Logos over Accordance

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This post has 58 Replies | 15 Followers

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Jeremy | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 3 2010 12:11 PM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):

Looking at Accordance handout, recognized Logos 4 Bible Word Study lacks ability to filter/group by grammatical usage.

This is something I started a thread about a few weeks ago. L3 seemed to be able to do this. I know you can pretty much do it using the regular searching, but I would like to see it in the word study. It just seemed a little easier that way.

 

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 3 2010 1:35 PM

Jeremy:

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):

Looking at Accordance handout, recognized Logos 4 Bible Word Study lacks ability to filter/group by grammatical usage.

This is something I started a thread about a few weeks ago. L3 seemed to be able to do this. I know you can pretty much do it using the regular searching, but I would like to see it in the word study. It just seemed a little easier that way.

Concur - like range of meaning shown by Bible Word Study (BWS) rings, including pop-up when hovering over ring section:

Dreaming of BWS rings in Grammatical Relationships (Subject, Adverb, Object, ...), ideally with Translation choice.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 74
Monroe R Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 3 2010 3:13 PM

The  proof is NOT in the pudding. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. Look it up.

Rich+

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 4 2010 9:33 PM

Monroe R Miller:

The  proof is NOT in the pudding. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. Look it up.

OK (easy NEAR search - left side of screen shot) - 3rd bible shootout item bit more challenging - morph search lower right:

Found Library has Sentence Analysis resources (hover mouse over word for parsing - bottom left); opening multiple copies of same resource helpful.  Also noticed search results highlighted in NA27 text.

Note: screen shot on 27" iMac - full size image is 2,472 pixels wide by 1,440 pixels tall.

Did morph search for 100 words (match Accordance Handout); turns out changing 100 to 15 yields same results:

(Οἱ BEFORE 1 Word δέ) AND (@V????[^NP] AFTER 15 Words lemma:δέ) ANDNOT (@C AFTER 15 Words lemma:δέ)

By the way, learned Logos 4 has 20 morph search subtypes for Conjunction.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 42
Jeffrey Hands | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 5 2010 1:01 PM

Here are my 2 cents.

First of all, my experience with both Logos and Accordance customer service puts them both at the top of ALL applications on my Mac. They are both exemplary in their promptness, understanding, clarity and helpfulness. Both companies have a good philosophy here and good employees carrying it out. Quick Verse on the other hand... (I know that's not our topic, but the comparison is relevant). I am not convinced that Quick Verse has any customer support employees at all! Contact was never possible except for automated e-mail responses, promising an answer would come later, which it never did.

Second, with Logos 4, Logos seems to have approached everything they do from the standpoint of how the user interacts with the software and materials. I know of no other software on the Mac (at all) that takes care of its own maintenance so effectively and unobtrusively. (OK there were some bugs with indexing on Alpha versions, but no more for me). Adobe could learn something here!!! Logos updates itself, keeps all of my purchases online and intact, doesn't require me to enter an admin password. It just works and keeps working. I get the feeling that even better things are coming just based on how motivated the software developers are. You guys have done great work!

I have tried over and over to understand Accordance, but even with their tutorials I just scratch my head and think "too bad I'm not a software designer, cause maybe then I'd understand why they did stuff this way". The Logos Home screen is great, the customizable Bible Reading plans are great. Highlighting and taking notes that works (almost) intuitively. (When you highlight a verse, it would be good if the Notes window brought you to THAT verse immediately, instead of starting you at Genesis again). To this day, I think I've made 2 Notes with that function on Accordance.

I do like with Accordance that I can have German and English translations scrolling synchronized and that it starts quickly. The fact that Logos automatically saves your desktop view regularly is great, whereas Accordance requires a dialog box for this, with clumsy steps thereafter "name this desktop..." (same name) "do you want to replace this desktop and all its contents?"  I just give up and hit cancel. Why can't a simple "command save" just update the desktop in Accordance, something that Logos does itself invisibly.

OK, maybe it was 4 cents

Posts 1246
David Mitchell | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 5 2010 1:10 PM

Jeffrey Hands:
When you highlight a verse, it would be good if the Notes window brought you to THAT verse immediately, instead of starting you at Genesis again

Slightly off-topic: this will be fixed soon in an upcoming release.

David Mitchell
Development Lead
Faithlife

Posts 42
Jeffrey Hands | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 7 2010 2:36 PM

Thank you David.

Your prompt answer plus the coming fix is exactly what I meant when I said that Logos has motivated programmers who are preparing good things for the next releases!

greetings from Munich,

Jeff

Posts 4
Chris Echols | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 9 2010 5:32 AM

Sometimes when software has a lot of technical forum help, it's because something isn't as obvious as it should be.  I think Accordance shines in being intuitive and having pretty detailed help so I don't have to always ask on their forum.  I hope that I don't have to become a frequent poster on the Logos 4 forum after I make my purchase.

Posts 5285
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 9 2010 8:33 AM

Jeffrey Hands:
I just give up and hit cancel. Why can't a simple "command save" just update the desktop in Accordance, something that Logos does itself invisibly.

 

Workspaces are updated with a Command Save. And while this isn;t a place sing the praises of Accordance, I will say I like the flexibility it has compared to Logos for customizing the way I start up... I have several work spaces set up, including NIV Study Bible, Expositor Commentary ESV SB and NLT SB, one click and in less time than it takes for Logos to even think of loading I am up and running. I like logos and it has a nice user interface, but the home page is limiting for me. And it't log on is frustrating, it has often it taken 4 or 5 attempts for it to successfully  log on. 

-dan

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 9 2010 9:01 AM

Living and learning - 4th Bible Shootout - Logos 4 has easy morph search for interjection - @I - found some quirks (e.g. Lemma sort order and result line display):

Logos 4 Mac 4.0a SR-1 (and Logos 4 PC 4.2 Beta 1) include accent marks when sorting Lemma's - hence alpha sorted after delta and omicron.  In separate forum post, reported bug about Lemma display missing in result line after option+click (along with 2 verbs in interjection result list).  Morph search of Old Testament passage: Genesis - Malachi includes some apocryphal results.  Can display graph of NT results, but cannot display OT graph.  Comparing lemma's found in Logos 4 to Accordance handout, noticed Logos found 19 lemmas in LXX (some in apocrypha) while Accordance handout had 8.  Likewise Accordance handout shows interjection translations - in Logos 4, LXX reverse interlinear bit challenging since Hebrew word order flipped (dreaming of Logos Bible Word Study enhancement - filter or group by morphology).  Aligning search results facilitates looking for contextual usage patterns by various  authors.

Note: screen shot on 27" iMac - full size image is 2,478 pixels wide by 1,440 pixels tall (annotated with arrow to show cursor location for verse pop-up from NT result graph).

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 1246
David Mitchell | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 11 2010 7:07 AM

Daniel W. Francis:
I like Logos and it has a nice user interface, but the home page is limiting for me. And its log on is frustrating, it has often it taken 4 or 5 attempts for it to successfully  log on.

Quick note: you can set up Logos to automatically load your last active layout on startup, rather than the home page.

Also, if Logos prompts you to log in every time you start the app, there may be some incorrectly configured file permissions on your system. If you post in a new thread, we may be able to get that sorted out for you.

David Mitchell
Development Lead
Faithlife

Posts 2434
mab | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 11 2010 10:22 PM

I threw my lot in with Logos after being on the Beta with a very small Logos library I had on my PC. The reason became clear in the initial experience.  Logos 4 puts everything on the table. Like having a couple dozen books open to the right place when you do a Bible search. If you just want one open, you can do that too. I don't need a reference to decipher the morphology codes, I can see what all the original language words are. All the subjects referenced in the passage are there to get an instant dictionary explanation. It's just there. If I need to dig deeper, I build on this foundation. I can run it on a Mac, a PC, or search my library on the web from most anywhere.

Software is merely a tool. I think Logos is a more accessible instrument for study. Isn't that the idea?

The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 16 2010 6:19 PM

More living and learning - not know how to complete 5th challenge - found forum post from Nov 2009 => http://community.logos.com/forums/p/5590/43446.aspx (includes some links to Bible Shootout commentary)

Found a WIki page with Morphological codes => http://wiki.logos.com/Morphology_Codes - desired more Verb Family insight - looked in Library - found Systematic Glossary.  Observation: seems searching for verbal aspects more useful than searching for verbal root spelling change (weak), especially for non-professional linguists.

Also in library, found Biblical Hebrew Reference grammar with 11 weak verbs.  Observation: appears Accordance handout searched for 2 forms of weak verbs - not know about Biblical usage of Middle voice for the other 9 weak verbs.

For morph searching on Mac, while unable to click item to modify search (can do on PC), learned can use arrow keys and enter to modify Morph search codes - press tab to highlight search phrase, followed by enter to start Morph search.

Note: screen shot on 27" iMac - full size image is 2,476 pixels wide by 1,440 pixels tall.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 170
Bob | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 18 2010 6:04 AM

Jeffrey Hands:
I do like with Accordance that I can have German and English translations scrolling synchronized

 

Two words, "text compare".  Just be careful, I once accidentally got a layout with TC stuck in Psalms with "all bibles". The program appears to die forever filling the panel.

Bob - 17" MBP quad 2.3GHz 4GB  and iMAC

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 18 2010 7:27 PM

Robert Phillips:

Jeffrey Hands:
I do like with Accordance that I can have German and English translations scrolling synchronized

 

Two words, "text compare".  Just be careful, I once accidentally got a layout with TC stuck in Psalms with "all bibles". The program appears to die forever filling the panel.

Another option is linking resources: e.g. scroll Hebrew, LXX, and English Bibles:

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 33
John Featherstone | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 19 2010 12:33 AM

Logos v Accordance:

A couple months into the Logos 4 for mac, I'm less satisfied with, than with the old 3.0g or e or whatever the last version was. Logos 4 has a marvelous layout, brilliant tools, but is impossibly slow. This running on an early 2008 2.4 ghz MacBook Pro with 4 gig of ram, 256 vram, and OS 10.6.4. 

When launching it goes into the "whirling rainbow ball," for 2 or 3 minutes, but after launching it even takes  longer for all the commentaries to load. The pop-up word studies and text studies on the far right (standard layout) are nearly a minute wait while I impatiently hold the cursor over the word I want information for.

Other times its the "gray screen" wait.  And it doesn't "remember" the ABC links I set for each resource, and every time I change texts I'm into the long wait again. Opps, I selected the link on a resource that opening in Matthew and now my search window and all the other linked resources have been "hijacked" to Matthew, and I'll have to start my search over again.  I've learned to dislike using it because of the wait. I find myself launching the old Logos 3 version (under WinXP in Parallels) and running it alongside BibleWorks 6 or 8, but the newest library resources won't load under the old 3.0 version. The installer records an error. Now I always use BibleWorks for a special text search and detail on the Greek & Hebrew,  because it's always been faster, (but it's a different product with different goals).

I study in a study group three times a week. One of those I serve as the full-time facilitator, moderator, and the other two I trade off with others.  I've tried to pre-anticipate all possibles and load them before the study group, but that's not always possible. Usually I print an outline.

 

Re: Accordance, I have friends using Accordance, with the "scholar, primary super bundle" or something like that., and I've watched them use it, and it never seems that slow. Seems brisk by comparison to my Logos 4, and nicely intuitive. But I probably have more of the resources that I want in Logos than they have. Some aren't even available in Accordance. 

Years ago I switched OS platform to a WinXP machine in order to support Logos use, That was before there was any really viable Mac Bible software, and when emulation OS software was very slow on the Mac. Things are better now. I think the world is changing, the comparatives (Bible software)  are closer today than they were then, but when the code for Logos 4 gets fine tuned, or else the processors catch up to the load Logos 4 put on them (Im hearing the same complaint with the quad core desktops and the i5 and i7 processors) it will again tip the scales more strongly in favor of Logos.  The libraries aren't yet comparable yet with Accordance, and I love the Logos support people, but it's got to get closer. I hate that Logos has gone primarily web based, but many of the features on my phone are the same. Its the future of things and Logos is ahead of the curve.

Yes, the Logos team is on the right track, but it's just too slow now. Beats going through the stacks in the library, or accessing some school's online library resources, but it's not a real time "on the fly" bible study tool yet. i'm certain that Logos 4 is the future, but it's not here yet, not for me anyway. I'll need to supplement it with a lot of other stuff. (BibleWorks 6 & 8, e-sword, and two other special collection resources.)

Posts 116
B. J. Clarke | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 19 2010 2:10 AM

John,

The specs on my MacBook Pro are the same as yours, and while I am hopeful for more speed optimization in time to come, I am not having to wait as near as long as you are describing.

I really believe that if you posted your logs (See the first post in the forum list to learn how), the developers would be able to help you diagnose the problem, and find ways to enhance the performance of the software on your machine.

It's worth a try anyway.

 

 

Posts 521
Bob Deacon | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 19 2010 4:35 AM

I have hesitated in making this post out of respect for Logos and its developers who have certainly worked tirelessly on this product. I am certainly grateful for their hard work.

 

I have both Logos 4 and Accordance 9. I have had Logos since they came out with Logos 3 and I have only acquired Accordance within the last year. May I say very respectfully that I am disappointed in Logos 4. It is incredibly slow and the note feature in my opinion is lame. I have 4 gig of ram running on a 13" MacBook which is about a year old. Logos 4 is slow to load, slow to render the highlights and notes and it is cumbersome to put in notes. Logos 3 note feature worked much better IMO. While it is certainly true that there is a much greater library of resources to choose from in Logos and I currently use Logos for only one resource I find Accordance incredibly fast, has an awesome "search all" feature and is much more friendly with my hardware resources. I am not desiring to be critical. Logos has an incredible sales and support staff but then so does Accordance.

For the time being my primary Biblical study resource is Accordance.

 

Bob Deacon

Pastor, Faith Outreach Community Church

Gatesville, NC

Bob Deacon

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Posts 22
Dick Roberts | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 19 2010 6:44 PM

I too have used both Logos (PC), Logos (Mac), and Accordance.  I believe my first Logos was version 2 and my first Accordance was Scholars version 4. I have also used Logos Mac since it first came out. I use both PC and Mac at work and Mac at home. My perception is that both Logos and Accordance are excellent programs, both have feature sets unique to themselves, can essentially do much of the same things, although in different ways, are well supported by capable support staff, developed by godly Christians, and have loyal followers.  I believe the question asked, "why Logos / Accordance over Accordance/Logos" is a legitimate question allowing users to share what they believe the strengths of their respective software is.  Since my work has generously allowed me to maintain both platforms I use both programs daily.  I am unable to build as large a library as I would like, but for basic sermon/lesson preparation, I find that either Logos or Accordance can do pretty much everything I want to do.  My only caution to the fans of their respective software is to beware of demonizing those who are fans of the other.  My bottom line: If I only ran PC - Logos the clear winner -- if only a Mac - Right Now its Accordance

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