Discounts on Zondervan's Logos editions for Pradis users

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Dan Pritchett | Forum Activity | Posted: Thu, Oct 8 2009 5:56 PM

We are working with Zondervan right now on the plan to help existing Pradis users get a discount on the Logos editions of Zondervan's titles.

Keeping in mind a few key issues:

  1. Logos editions of Zondervan titles are new products that Zondervan is paying to develop from scratch.
  2. Existing Pradis users are not losing anything, they may continue to enjoy their purchases with no problem.

 What then should their discount plan look like?

  • How should the discount work?
  • Who should get discounts? How should they prove they are Pradis customers?
  • What if a Pradis user has one title. Should he get a discount on "only" the exact same title for Logos, or anything Zondervan releases with Logos?
  • One time offer? Any time? Deadline?
  • One big order, or as many separate orders as they like?
  • What should the discount be?
Posts 1674
Paul Golder | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 8 2009 6:40 PM

Never had a large investment in Pradis, just a handful of titles. Mostly due to not wanting to invest a large amount of money in an inferior product.

I have only one opinion, previous owners should be able to buy previously purchased works at production cost.

That being said, I would be happy to just be able to buy the titles at the discounted "street" price of the print versions.

 

"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."

Posts 390
Alain Maashe | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 8 2009 7:06 PM

I am thankful that Logos is working with Zondervan to help Pradis users transition to Logos edition.

However, while from a technical perceptive the same Zondervan titles will be new products started from scratch, for current users like myself, they are not new titles, not even revised editions even though Logos' engine is miles ahead of Pradis and provides more tools. I already have the licenses to the resources, I am just looking for an engine that is not obsolete

My problem is not with Logos but with Zondervan who decided to discontinue a platform

I do not agree that existing Pradis users are not losing anything, we are losing the support and updates that were supposed to come with the product we purchased (support that was not necessarily great to begin with). we are losing the guarantee that it will be compatible with the next operating system .... and the one after that (not to mention things like 64bit support). Most of them plan to keep our resources for life (ours, not the life of the platform)

The smart move is to jump ship now or risk getting stuck with an obsolete platform that might lead at some point to resources that are not usable or  are as good as nonexistent.

This is not really a choice, it becomes a necessity if one wants to keep using these resources for more than a few years.

The problem is that someone like me who paid lets say $500 for a collections of resources, will have to pay more than twice that amount to move to Logos at the regular price ($1000+). and a regular discount might not necessarily be of great help.

I do not like the word "discount" because it is based on cost of the Logos version (and not on the much cheaper price we originally paid) and even a hefty 50% discount will make me pay at least the same price that I paid originally for those resources. It would literally be like buying the same resources twice even thought I already own the licenses.

If Zondervan continued to support Pradis, this would have been a different issue, with a choice left to the user (the convenience of Logos or savings by keeping Pradis). in that case, I would probably keep Pradis. but the choice has been made for me already.

Since Zondervan is unilaterally choosing to  ditch Pradis and adopt Logos, they should also provide a way to their users that are forced in that situation to upgrade to the new engine not on a per resource basis (which would look more like a discount which will certainly make us spent at least as much as what we originally paid for the resources ) but using a flat rate to upgrade the whole collection no matter its size.

 

Alain

 

Posts 2774
J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 8 2009 7:14 PM

Alain Maashe:
The problem is that someone like me who paid lets say $500 for a collections of resources, will have to pay more than twice that amount to move to Logos at the regular price ($1000+). and a regular discount might not necessarily be of great help.
Caveat Emptor 

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Jacob Hantla | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 8 2009 7:48 PM

DanPritchett:

We are working with Zondervan right now on the plan to help existing Pradis users get a discount on the Logos editions of Zondervan's titles.

Keeping in mind a few key issues:

  1. Logos editions of Zondervan titles are new products that Zondervan is paying to develop from scratch.
  2. Existing Pradis users are not losing anything, they may continue to enjoy their purchases with no problem.

 What then should their discount plan look like?

  • How should the discount work?
  • Who should get discounts? How should they prove they are Pradis customers?
  • What if a Pradis user has one title. Should he get a discount on "only" the exact same title for Logos, or anything Zondervan releases with Logos?
  • One time offer? Any time? Deadline?
  • One big order, or as many separate orders as they like?
  • What should the discount be?

Although it is a new product for Zondervan to develop, it just seems like the right thing to do to build trust in a digital medium to offer significant discount for existing Zondervan digital licenses. (I only have one, so I don't have much vested interest). This is a key moment for digital Christian ebook publishing. Will major works be allowed to die or will the proper support be offered for the migration.

My opinion is that the discount should be equivalent to the original price of the Zondervan title (this would still generate revenue as I'm sure the Logos version would cost more...and it would probably draw a larger number of users in).

Only registered Pradis customers should get the discount (doesn't Zondervan have records of what we own? I registered mine)

I think it would be fair to have a limited time upgrade window. 

It would make sense to me to make the discount apply only to the same title (unless that title is not being released in Logos, in which case a credit should be provided toward a purchase).

Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org

Posts 778
JRS | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 8 2009 7:53 PM

Paul Golder:

Never had a large investment in Pradis, just a handful of titles.  ...previous owners should be able to buy previously purchased works at production cost.

Mr. Golder makes some good points.  I also agree with several things that Mr. Maashe says - especially his comment about the Pradis platform/resources becoming unusable at some point in the future.  Thus, switching to Logos is definitely a desirable thing to do as soon as possible.  In my case, this will be the third time I have purchased some of these titles ... hardcopy, Pradis, now Logos.  I am not angling for a freebie but I do think the comment about "production cost" is well taken.

How blessed is the one whom Thou dost choose, and bring near to Thee(Psa 65:4a)

Posts 3809
spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 8 2009 7:55 PM

DanPritchett:
 What then should their discount plan look like?

I must admit I saw a 50% off collection of Zondervan resources at my local Christian Book store. I contemplated telling the store manager about the ditching of Pradis and trying to take them down to 25% and then taking advantage of a Previous owner discount i heard would be offered. I would let the owner know my plan and I am letting you know that if it works in my favor I'll take the deal so you may want to weigh things like this in your decision.

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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 8 2009 8:50 PM

JRS:
In my case, this will be the third time I have purchased some of these titles ... hardcopy, Pradis, now Logos. 

Zondervan left me even more high and dry. I was an early purchaser of the NIDNTT and the NIDOTTE (think those are the right abbreviations) in the pre-Pradis miserable software Zondervan produced. I had already paid for NIDNTT in hardback. When Pradis came out I was offered nada for my previous purchase. Was told to re-buy the whole thing. Nope. Burned once, not about to be burned again.

I suspect unless Zondervan does a lot to make their Pradis customers happier than they made me (and others like me) there will be a lot of anti-Zondervan sentiment stirred up. You know, you can't buy customer good will but you can lose it if you are cheap.

I still stay away from Zondervan even in their print stuff. No chance I'd buy anything Pradis. I think their approach was far from Christian. Glad I've never found that here at Logos.

I've ordered the pre-pub for both these resources. I am sure Zondervan doesn't intend to offer me anything for buying them again. I guess that's what they are counting on. Bad on Zondervan.

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

Posts 71
Colin Thornby | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 8 2009 10:01 PM

Mark A. Smith:

I think their approach was far from Christian. Glad I've never found that here at Logos.

Zondervan is just a well-marketed division of Harper Collins, which is part of News Limited. Nothing Christian about it (which is not to say that many of those who work for them might be Christian and well intentioned).

Posts 71
Colin Thornby | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 8 2009 10:12 PM
I should have said: Which is not to say that many people who work for Zondervan are not Christians and well intentioned. I just wanted to point out that Zondervan is a part of a corporate giant in the publishing industry, and that brings a whole range of inflexibilities of approach.
Posts 60
Richard Crampton | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 9 2009 9:53 AM

I have several hundred dollars invested in Pradis and significantly more in Logos.  Frankly, it irritates me to no end that I would have to pay anything extra to switch my resources from Pradis to Logos.  I already paid for my resources!   I know this is not Logos' fault.  I appreciate their efforts in bringing Zondervan resources to Logos.  But  Zondervan is crazy if they think they are going to get another penny from me!   

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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 9 2009 9:56 AM

DanPritchett:

We are working with Zondervan right now on the plan to help existing Pradis users get a discount on the Logos editions of Zondervan's titles.

Keeping in mind a few key issues:

  1. Logos editions of Zondervan titles are new products that Zondervan is paying to develop from scratch.
  2. Existing Pradis users are not losing anything, they may continue to enjoy their purchases with no problem.

 What then should their discount plan look like?

  • How should the discount work?
  • Who should get discounts? How should they prove they are Pradis customers?
  • What if a Pradis user has one title. Should he get a discount on "only" the exact same title for Logos, or anything Zondervan releases with Logos?
  • One time offer? Any time? Deadline?
  • One big order, or as many separate orders as they like?
  • What should the discount be?

I have all the Pradis collection & have most of the Pradis collection in hard copy, so i am interested in this. I do hope some godly common sense prevails in this. Purchasing the license twice if deeply discounted, is fine by me. Mine is a question of fairness, will Zondervan do the right thing by their customers?

We supported the pradis product by investing in it heavily, were we wrong to do so? Will Zondervan take this into consideration? I will have to wait and see what Zondervan have in mind.

Simply put, be fair Zondervan.

Ted.

 

Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ

Posts 1928
Donovan R. Palmer | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 9 2009 10:24 AM

Because I refused to buy into Pradis, I don't have anything to gain by saying this... I think Zondervan needs to take the hit on the transference of users to the Libronix platform and make it dirt cheap.  Pradis users already paid development and royalty fees once, and if users have to do this again, it really is hard to not see how it disenfranchises them. The death of Pradis in digital terms will be like a book going out of print, except when the day comes that Pradis won't run anymore on Windows, the owners no longer have a book they can read.

If Zondervan was going out of business, things would be different.  However, since Zondervan is going to continue to market and sell products, I think its corporate responsibility is to take care of its customers. Doing so will probably yield much higher dividends in the long run through customer loyalty and support. Even though I am not a Pradis user, I do care about how companies like Zondervan take care of their users and it does influence my future purchasing decisions.

This is actually a very interesting moment in the e-book development... and I will be watching it carefully from an overall development point of view. As much as I like Logos and other electronic Bible products, I have asked myself the question more than once what if the company goes out of business or changes its business strategy... will I be left with a bunch of worthless files which I cannot do anything with or is my electronic property as tangible as a paper book?

Posts 274
Daniel Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 9 2009 10:42 AM

DanPritchett:

We are working with Zondervan right now on the plan to help existing Pradis users get a discount on the Logos editions of Zondervan's titles.

Keeping in mind a few key issues:

  1. Logos editions of Zondervan titles are new products that Zondervan is paying to develop from scratch.
  2. Existing Pradis users are not losing anything, they may continue to enjoy their purchases with no problem.

 What then should their discount plan look like?

  • How should the discount work?
  • Who should get discounts? How should they prove they are Pradis customers?
  • What if a Pradis user has one title. Should he get a discount on "only" the exact same title for Logos, or anything Zondervan releases with Logos?
  • One time offer? Any time? Deadline?
  • One big order, or as many separate orders as they like?
  • What should the discount be?

Regarding #1, I'm assuming the manpower should be less because the resources are already digital (I'm referring to Expositor's Bible Commentary as an example, which I own, that is already in Pradis). 

Regarding #2, there is a long-term issue as far as application support, but right now, yes, we can keep using Pradis.

For how the discount works, here's a few thoughts.

Unless there's a unique identifier on the box/CD (I don't recall), it would be hard to prove when/where you got the software.  I bought mine several years ago, so I no longer have the receipt.  I didn't buy it direct from Zondervan, either.  I suppose an 'honor system' or providing some basic level of info about the software to indicate the applicant actually has it won't work because people will abuse it?

Discounts on all the Zondervan products (perhaps a different level for the ones that were not previously electronic) would promote sales, I'd think. But I'm personally concerned with one title, so for now it doesn't matter to me.

An option for multiple orders within the next year would be great, both for those who haven't heard about the transition yet, and for those who can't afford to buy several commentary/book bundles all at once.

It would be great to see Zondervan add an academic discount option, but I don't know if that's on the table, for those who may not have the Pradis version currently but want to get into some of the Zondervan titles.

Regarding the upgrade: For the specific title I'm looking at (EBC), the Pradis version sells in CD form for around $80.  The Libronix preorder is $130.  If Zondervan did a 50% discount, I would definitely go for the Libronix version ($65 upgrade for longevity and convenience).  If it's a 10-20% discount, I'm going to look into other options (sell Pradis, wait, etc).

 

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spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 9 2009 10:47 AM

DanPritchett:
 What then should their discount plan look like?

Once I thought about this I said to myself "you know, it shouldn't really be their discount plan, it should be Logos'" They were already paid for these resources, and the only charge that should be made is from Logos for the cost of creating the books. Logos should determine the discount, not zondervan, IMHO. Of course I'm also clueless when it comes to the publishing world :-)

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 9 2009 11:00 AM

Donovan R. Palmer:
I think Zondervan needs to take the hit on the transference of users to the Libronix platform and make it dirt cheap.

I don't own Pradis either, so take this for what it's worth.

I would agree that it would make good marketing sense to do this. Businesses do better when they stand behind their customers, than when they only stand behind their products.

However, one of the reasons Pradis failed is that it's resources were not up to Logos standards. They were cheap and it showed. I don't see anything wrong with asking existing users to pay for the added value in usability the resources will have in the Logos platform.

Now it's been said that all these resources have to be recoded 'from scratch.' That's not entirely true, since they do exist in electronic form, and the surface text won't have to be re-entered. But when the Logos' employee said, that he was cluing us in to the fact that from Logos' perspective having the surface text is merely 'starting from scratch.' All the keylinks have to be checked for accuracy (including the more esoteric ones), references to other works that may, or may not be in the Logos library of offerings have to be discovered, parsed and linked, all topics need to be coded and registered, all Greek, Hebrew and other language text needs to be marked and possibly re-coded to work with the current Logos font specifications, besides inserting all the chapter and article markers, bibliographical materials, MARC codes, etc. All that must be done, or Logos users will complain that the Zondervan titles are all 'dumbed down' and Logos reputation is damaged.

While I understand the frustration of Pradis users, I hope they understand that the transfer of titles from one platform to a far superior one, has a cost, and is worth the cost.

All that being said, I do agree with Donovan, that it would build a tremendous amount of goodwill, particularly with Logos users who have begun to boycott Zondervan, in part because of their refusal to make their products available to Logos, and because of the appearance that Zondervan is more interested in making a buck, than in promoting the Christian Faith. Absorbing the cost of reworking these titles for current Pradis owners, would be seen as a rare act of corporate generosity, and change the equation Zondervan=greed to Zondervan=your friend in the publishing business. Even from a strictly bottom-line, money perspective, it's hard to see how this would not benefit the brand and the company, and thereby create more revenue in the long-run.

But since this is a joint venture, and Logos will benefit from the influx of users to the Logos platform, it would seem that it would also be in Logos' interest to offer deep discounts for Pradis users who make the switch to Logos - either by sharing the cost of development for current Pradis owners, or by offering deep discounts to Pradis users for other valuable titles that have already paid for themselves. Sort of a "Logos' bucks" approach, where users would be given $X to spend on resources on a list of the above mentioned titles. This could be structured so that Logos doesn't actually give away anything but it's profit margin (or a portion of it). This would also build good will among current Logos users who also own Pradis, and incentivize Pradis users who don't yet own Logos to make the transition ang get in the Logos loop, all the while introducing them to the system for continuing to build own's library.

It seems to me that this could easily be a win-win-win for Zondervan, Logos, and Pradis owners, with minimal overall impact on the bottom line of anyone.

But then again, what do I know about what it actually takes to run a company like Zondervan or Logos.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

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Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 9 2009 11:15 AM

I am not adding much to the good points that have made except for adding my support. I am not aware that Zondervan provides as great an opportunity to give feedback as Logos does or else we would not be making these comments here (since most agree that the onus should be on Zondervan, not Logos). So perhaps, Logos staff would consider passing on our comments to Zondervan.

Seems to me that we are touching on essential points that concern the increasing use of digital products in a variety of media and platforms as opposed to plain old books, cds, etc. The latter we bought once and used for life as long as we took good care of them. The former is subject to the caprices of technological flux. More and more we hear that we do not buy just content anymore but "a product" which includes the format and platform and related licenses. Some of it makes sense (we do gain the power of Logos by transitioning the content from Pradis) but fairness needs to be both ways (compensation for monies already received by Zondervan and the shortened life of the purchases).

I do want to congratulate the Logos Team once again for being so "on the ball" and working on these questions actively. This is already so much more that we get from many other companies. It should be normal, but remains exceptional. Thanks.

Blessings,

Francis

Posts 62
Mike T | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 9 2009 11:26 AM

DanPritchett:

We are working with Zondervan right now on the plan to help existing Pradis users get a discount on the Logos editions of Zondervan's titles.

Keeping in mind a few key issues:

  1. Logos editions of Zondervan titles are new products that Zondervan is paying to develop from scratch.
  2. Existing Pradis users are not losing anything, they may continue to enjoy their purchases with no problem.

 What then should their discount plan look like?

  • How should the discount work?
  • Who should get discounts? How should they prove they are Pradis customers?
  • What if a Pradis user has one title. Should he get a discount on "only" the exact same title for Logos, or anything Zondervan releases with Logos?
  • One time offer? Any time? Deadline?
  • One big order, or as many separate orders as they like?
  • What should the discount be?

Once again I look at things a bit differently...  Why is the transfer of Pradis to the Logos platform any different from the transfer of Logos 2.x to the Logos 3 platform?  In both cases there were significant investments to develop the new software and books, only Zondervan is out-sourcing the development work to Logos whereas Logos did it in-house...  I wasn't using Logos when Logos 3 was launched.  Was there a charge to upgrade from 2.x to 3?  A discount offered?  Was there a time-limit?  It seems to me that Zondervan should be responsible for transitioning its customers to the new platform.  Why should their responsibility to their users be impacted by their decision to out-source development of the new platform?

Just a thought...

Michael

Posts 118
Andrew Chuter | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 9 2009 11:26 AM

I am of the view that the discount should be significant as given the finishing of support for Pradis and the potential problems resulting from future changes in operating systems, there is no guarantee that the system will continue to be functional in the future. I feel particularly strongly about this as I have only recently purchased a number of Pradis items, at a time when Zondervan would have known they were ceasing to support Pradis. Overall I'm pretty disappointed with the ethos of Zondervan, whereas I have nothing but praise for how Logos looks after its customer base.

                                        Andrew

Posts 60
Richard Crampton | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 9 2009 11:47 AM

Amen Andrew!

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