Discounts on Zondervan's Logos editions for Pradis users

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Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 9 2009 12:08 PM

It is true that Zondervan's support for Pradis stands no comparison with the excellent service given by Logos. But, it almost sounds like many are already complaining about what Zondervan's decision will be when it has not been made yet. Can't we just express our concerns and requests and see what the response will be? Even when it comes to Zondervan, "love hopes all things" (1 Cor 13:7). I guess what I am saying is that there is often in this forum lots of alarmism and early criticism that spark out of what should only be questions and I just would like to encourage others to "do unto others what you would have them do to you" (thinking about how our wording may sound to the staff of Logos or Zondervan who read it).

Blessings,

Francis

Posts 120
Steve Robinson | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 9 2009 12:10 PM

As a "believer in business" for 25+ years, I understand that the decision is not as simple as I (and probably Dan and everyone else at Logos) would like it to be.

From my vantage point, Zondervan's decision to allow their products to be licensed in Libronix format is pretty straight forward. They aren't just abandoning Pradis, they are embracing a new format and a new product, that being the Glo Bible, (www.bibleglo.com). Their decision wasn't made out of concession that Libronix was a "better" format or in response to any other motives than financial. Simply put, by allowing their products to be Logos-friendly they are able to maintain a viable revenue flow for these electronic resources while doing none of the work.

Don't get me wrong. I'm ecstatic about the concept of the numerous resources I have in the vastly inferior (in my opinion) interface being available in Logos/Libronix, (which is my software of choice), but I am under no disillusion that Zondervan is going to just give us a free upgrade or that their arrangement with Logos is going to allow them (Logos) to do that by Zondervan taking some type of financial hit in the deal to offset Logos' development costs.

Dan, while I really do appreciate the question being asked, because I do believe that Logos cares about and listens to its customer, this was first and foremost a business decision (especially on the part of Zondervan) and I can't help but think (discern?) that the asking of this question (including the way it was presented) is at least in part to prepare us for an upgrade fee structure that neither you nor Logos/Pradis users, myself included, would have preferred.

My response to your question is simply, "Do what you can to make it as 'Logos' as possible."

With respect and appreciation,

Steve

Posts 2774
J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 9 2009 12:25 PM

Michael:
Why is the transfer of Pradis to the Logos platform any different from the transfer of Logos 2.x to the Logos 3 platform?
I think you answered your own question. 
Michael:
only Zondervan is out-sourcing the development work to Logos whereas Logos did it in-house..

My Books in Logos & FREE Training

Posts 62
Mike T | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 9 2009 1:16 PM

Joe Miller:

Michael:
Why is the transfer of Pradis to the Logos platform any different from the transfer of Logos 2.x to the Logos 3 platform?
I think you answered your own question. 
Michael:
only Zondervan is out-sourcing the development work to Logos whereas Logos did it in-house..

Yeah...  The question was meant to be rhetorical...   (wry grin).  The point was that development costs are incurred either way.  One could argue that, even with out-sourcing, Zondervan's costs should be relatively lower since no new "base platform" need be developed.  I would think that a new Zondervan shell would need to be created and the resources converted to Logos format for the transfer.  Not that this is a small thing, but Logos must have had a significant development cost in creating the new functionality of Logos 3 which Zondervan need not incur...    But then, I'm no software developer, so what do I know?  Smile

Michael

Posts 2774
J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 9 2009 1:31 PM

Michael:
The point was that development costs are incurred either way.
Fair enough.  Then I guess that puts you in agreement with the comment above that, for you, a fair deal would be Zondervan makes $0 on your upgrade, and Zondervan should cover the development costs which they should have paid anyway to advance their software/product.  Sound about right?

My Books in Logos & FREE Training

Posts 2725
Kevin A. Purcell | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 9 2009 1:35 PM

As an owner of Z's Expositors Bible Commentary I will be happy if it is a free trade.  Here is why I think this should happen this way.

1. I've already paid Zondervan once for this book and should not have to pay them again for the same books.

2. Logos is not losing money by giving one more away.  The only thing I could see is a fee for either the disks or to pay for the very small amount of bandwith it would cost to download.  $10 or so for S/H would be fair.  But if I do not get it free plus this minor fee, I likely won't buy it.  So you are not losing a sale by giving it to me.  Meanwhile since it is a digital book you are not paying out any more money other than the above administrative costs to give it away.  Unlike a book, once it is in digital format it doesn't cost you anything but the administrative costs. It is all profit otherwise.

So giving it to us free is not hurting Logos while it is helping Logos as many Zondervan customers are not now Logos customers.  They will become such if they are given a free copy of their books and see how good the program is and want more.

Here is how you can prove that I own it.  I send you the disc.  You can have it if I get equal value free.  If you give these free, then charge full price for other Z products that I cannot prove that I own via the above form.  Also, it would only be fair to make it a limited time offer.

Posts 118
Andrew Chuter | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 9 2009 1:46 PM

Here is how you can prove that I own it.  I send you the disc.  You can have it if I get equal value free.  If you give these free, then charge full price for other Z products that I cannot prove that I own via the above form.  Also, it would only be fair to make it a limited time offer.

Kevin Purcell
High Peak Baptist Church
and Christian Computing Magazine

Posts 118
Andrew Chuter | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 9 2009 1:47 PM

I would go along with Kevin's suggestion of a (free) disc exchange.

                         Andrew

Posts 5566
Forum MVP
Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 9 2009 1:53 PM

Kevin A. Purcell:
Meanwhile since it is a digital book you are not paying out any more money other than the above administrative costs to give it away.  Unlike a book, once it is in digital format it doesn't cost you anything but the administrative costs. It is all profit otherwise.

Not true. See my post above. The digital format is only the beginning of what needs to happen to make the book topically indexed, and keylinked with Scriptures and other Logos resources (that may or may not be there). If this were just a PDF, you'd be right, but this is supposed to be fully up to Logos standards for resources. I expect Commentaries (like Expositors) are among the most heavily keylinked resources both to Scriptures and to other Books. In some of my books, even verses cited as text are keylinked (example: "In the second book of Kings we see, in the third chapter, a strange thing going on in the verses 1-3" -- okay I totally made that up-- but I've seen instances where "1-3" is properly linked to 2Kings 3). That's what Logos users have come to expect from Logos resources.

Besides development costs, there are licensing costs. In this case, for current Pradis users, who own the resources they will be re-buying, I think those costs should be waved (i.e. transferred between platforms).

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

Posts 5615
Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 9 2009 1:55 PM

Kevin A. Purcell:
1. I've already paid Zondervan once for this book and should not have to pay them again for the same books.

I hear this argument a lot, and, as others have expressed, it doesn't take the format change into account.  It would be like asking for a paperback to hardback upgrade for physical books.  Yes the paperback ones maybe falling apart, but you still have to buy them again.  Caveat Emptor: did Zondervan promise free upgrades in perpetuity?  If not, why should it be expected?  Good will may be a reason, but can it be demanded?

Logos has promised to keep our licenses active as long as they can, but we are at the mercy of Logos for our books, and there's nothing to prevent them from going out of business, and making our licenses obsolete.

Kevin A. Purcell:
Unlike a book, once it is in digital format it doesn't cost you anything but the administrative costs. It is all profit otherwise.

Unless of course, the cost of development of that book is to be paid for by future purchases. There's no profit before the costs are paid.

Kevin A. Purcell:
But if I do not get it free plus this minor fee, I likely won't buy it.

So either way, you're not buying it, right?

 

I only own EBC in the first (non-Pradis) digital format.  I don't have a financial interest in the upgrade discount (it wouldn't apply to me). But I agree that existing users should only have to pay development costs at the max.  Though a free crossgrade would generate a lot of good will.

 

Wiki Links: Enabling Logging / Detailed Search Help - MacBook Pro (2014), ThinkPad E570

Posts 274
Mike W | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 9 2009 2:13 PM

AndrewChuter:

I would go along with Kevin's suggestion of a (free) disc exchange.

                         Andrew

The Pradis disks I have (EBC and Preacher&Teacher's Library) have serial numbers on the disk that had to be entered when they installed,  Wouldn't these serial numbers prove that I own the product (also, I registered both products electronically so I'd think Zondervan already has my information). As far as upgrade costs there are two items in my current collection I'd probably buy at the listed price if I had too (EBC and the Encyclopedia) but i think Zondervan should customer goodwill and the prospect for future purchases. Like many (most?)on this board I have several thousand dollars invested in LOGOS books and am very happy with the company and it's sales people because of the quality of the software and the way the company treats us.

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 9 2009 2:13 PM

Several have been more erudite than I am on the issue of fairness, the intricacies of digital production, and the complexities of business decisions.  What I am here adding is purely another voice:

1.  I have almost zero positive to say about my experience with Zondervan in regard to their software, their website, and their tech support.  Now, there IS positive stuff:

  • I like their print resources.
  • I am glad it was offered digitally.  
  • Their price was reasonable.
  • Some of their Pradis ideas were nice (customization of pane background color and font, etc)
  • A guy named Alane in tech was fairly responsive to my emails and personally sent out hand copied upgrades of Pradis to me when requested, or he filled me in on some of the goings on.
  • once a tech person did help guide me through an aweful installation experience.
  • I sometimes saw resources I wanted on their website.

Beyond those points, my impression is pretty negative.  People (tech or whomever) are hard to get ahold of, website info is way out of date, website is not very intuitive and is very clunky, I already paid to upgrade an obsolete software platform so that it would work on XP--which was my introduction to Pradis.  Pradis was plagued with many issues (incorrect or incomplete tagging of hyperlinks, installation issues galore, etc etc). 

I only had Pradis through clenched teeth: no other digital option for their material, which in some cases I felt was a necessity.  I only passed on to Logos a few of what I thought were Pradis' strengths, but overall, I could not stand working with it, or trying to get help, or navigating their site.  I never recommended them, and certainly didn't brag on them (unlike what I do with Logos).

I do not expect a freebie to upgrade, but I agree with a couple who have said that their biting the bullet to absorb much of the cost of upgrading existing Pradis customers will go a long way to repair their image.  However, perhaps they have a calculated decision: since all their stuff (essentially) will now be on Logos--whose reputation is near sterling--they might figure we will lose our "anti-Zondervan/Pradis malaise" and eventually buy their products at a normal rate, just like we do Baker, Word, College Press, etc., and not have to bite the bullet.

I am positive that Pradis will become obsolete in just a few OS changes.  And then we will be stuck.

This issue IS--more than even a Zondervan Image thing--about our sense of "security" in investing in a digital product.  Yeah, books can deteriorate--but with reasonable care, they have many decades (even centuries) of use, before they become obsolete by the sheer fact that newer, more updated works have appeared--but then we and our children are then dead.  What I DON'T like is deciding NOT to buy print works, instead investing literally thousands upon thousands in digital works, and then within 5 years having to pony up the same cost AGAIN, for the SAME WORKS because their tech model/platform wasn't sustained. . .

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

Posts 1134
Juanita | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 9 2009 3:27 PM

Daniel DeVilder:

This issue IS--more than even a Zondervan Image thing--about our sense of "security" in investing in a digital product.  Yeah, books can deteriorate--but with reasonable care, they have many decades (even centuries) of use, before they become obsolete by the sheer fact that newer, more updated works have appeared--but then we and our children are then dead.  What I DON'T like is deciding NOT to buy print works, instead investing literally thousands upon thousands in digital works, and then within 5 years having to pony up the same cost AGAIN, for the SAME WORKS because their tech model/platform wasn't sustained. . .

 

Hi Daniel, I echo your sentiments.   I had NIDOTTE and NIDNTTE in the early Zondervan Reference software days, before Pradis and then I learned I needed to upgrade to Pradis to use the same dictionaries and there was no price break given.   I did not upgrade.

Electronic media is not tangible; books are.  I have both and am positioning myself to be able to study without electronic media, if that were to fail from some unanticipated event.  Based on years of experience with both Logos and Zondervan software,  I tend to have a very high opinion of Logos and having been a user of all the other software vendors, I think, Logos can be trusted to provide a future for software and that is the major concern many of us have--the future, given Zondervan has changed the future for many.   I have honestly, been wavering over the cost of NICOT/NICNT and wondering over should I just buy print edition for the SAME price.  I choose Logos.  The sense of security comes from the CEO and their philosophy.  No one can guaranteee that our electrical grid will still function tomorrow.  We had that experience here in Monroe, MI several years ago.  It was interrupted for quite a while and we had to read our print Bibles.  Wow!  I believe Logos is doing their very best not only to give us great selections but to ensure a future for us.   I hope this helps, Daniel.  God Bless

Posts 518
Bobby Terhune | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 9 2009 3:57 PM

I have had a long and painful relationship with Zondervan ever since it started to sell software since the early 1990's. Every update of the platform required the user to essentialy to repurchase the product all over again. Zondervan's "upgrade Price" was higher than purchasing the product new from an online retailer. I was never a happy Zondervan user no matter what version of their software I was using. That being said, I'm not holding my breath for much help from Zondervan.

There are costs to keep book files updated with new technology which is totally different from the print business. Bob has said the cost to edit and tag books is basicaly the same cost a publisher has in preparing a text for print publication. Logos is the only company that updates their books for free and updates their software for free. Personally, I think that unless Logos experiences a lot of new growth, that model can't be substained for the long haul. Bob't even has even committed to retagging their 8,000 to 9,000 titles to bring them up to date, I can't even begin to guess at the cost of doing that.

Unfortunately, most new users don't buy extra books beyond the orginal package they bought. So I f Logos gets new customers with offering "deep" discounts to buy Logos versions of their Pradis titles, I don't see that as a big win financially for Logos.

Some Thoughts

Bobby

 

Posts 452
David Buckham | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 9 2009 5:35 PM

My post did sound right to me after I wrote it so I rewrote it.  Sorry if anyone read it and it sounded haughty.

A few months ago I read an article about switching to digital libraries from I believe Bob P.  With Logos we do not own the books we purchase, they are ours on lease.  It is probably the same with Pradis, although I don't know.  I only know one other minister, personally, who uses Pradis and he lives in Michigan...Zondervan's home turf.  I also have an acquaintance who works at Zondervan. 

In a similar situation there are some LSS books (old version of Logos) that have not yet been updated to Libronix books and do not work with the current Mac build of Logos.  I do know of some who have a problem with this.  Invested money in a product that they can no longer take advantage of.

This is a gamble we take with digital libraries...whoever they are. That's not to make light of anyone who is affected/upset by this choice.  It is a situation that stinks.

If the day should come and Logos has to close it's doors, I know how I would feel.  Here is what I would love to see happen.  It would be way awesome if Logos just said, hey prove your Pradis library and we will give them to you on Logos.  Understanding that it is a business, I doubt it would happen.  Talk about creating brand loyalty though.  Wow.  I wonder how large the Pradis base is?  I wonder how much it would cost.  I think it would be cool of Logos to give a steep discount to Pradis users...like 75%-90%. 

If I understand everything though, the good news is, Pradis will still work.  Just no more development.  Bugs, Books and Bibles will still be yours.

Just some of my naive thoughts and opinions.

all about Christ,

David Buckham

all about Christ,

David Buckham

http://thinkspurlove.blogspot.com

 

 

Posts 2355
Ronald Quick | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 9 2009 6:18 PM

I don't own any Pradis products except for the NIV which was included with the Archaeological Bible I purchased in print a few years ago.  I was not very impressed with Pradis and like Logos much better.  I know that many have invested a lot of money in Pradis and I think it would be great if Zondervan covered a significant portion of their upgrade to Logos.

I am excited to see what other titles published by Zondervan become available in Logos.

Ron

Posts 1344
PL | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 10 2009 7:04 AM

I think it's fair that the discount is equivalent to the original price we paid for the equivalent Pradis resources.

As to how to prove that I own certain Pradis books, isn't there some kind of license file on my computer that Logos can check for?

Posts 1134
Juanita | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 10 2009 7:24 AM

I purchased : Zondervan Theological Dictionaries (NIDOTTE/NIDNTTE), Zondervan NIV Study Bible Library which has EBC on it, and Scholar's Edition 5.0 Pradis.  I have the original three disks.  I cannot remember if I registered them because it wasn't required.  I don't think I should have to pay full price for any of these resources.

Posts 518
Bobby Terhune | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 10 2009 7:58 AM

I bought Zondervan's NIDOTTE/NIDNTTE twice now and the EBC three times, each time no reasonable upgrade was offered. It was cheaper to buy new from and online retailer! Zondervan didn't even offer to update book files when known errors were fixed.

These three titles are important enough to me that I will pay (whatever Logos decides) once more for  them and hopefully it will be my last purchase of these titles!

Bobby

Posts 2725
Kevin A. Purcell | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 10 2009 8:07 AM

You have missed my point.  Once you do the work, which you are going to do anyway, it does not cost you anymore to give it away to one who will unlikely ever pay for it. But it does gain you a happy, paying customer who might not otherwise become one.  My point is that once the work is done, the only cost to Logos to give it away is ...

1. Administrative costs of the actual transaction

2. Lost revenue from a sale

I feel like paying the first one is fair.  But since I am not likely going to buy it again #2 is moot.

However, when you factor in all the potential sales of future books that you could gain from a new  former Pradis user who would not have become a logos user if he was not given the books, logos will gain far more by giving it to those customers for the cost of the #1.

Simple logic and math seems to say it is in Logos' best interest to do what is also in the customer's best interests in this case.

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