Discounts on Zondervan's Logos editions for Pradis users

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Bobby Terhune | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 10 2009 8:45 AM

Kevin,

I think the issue is Zondervan losing money not Logos. As I stated earlier, Bob P has said most of their customers don't buy extra books beyond their initial purchase. So, not much of a win for Logos on that front. As for Zondervan who is paying for the development costs will be the one losing financially by offering a deep discount. By the way that is why I keep refering to Zondervan's history of dealing with upgrades on their software. I have no historical reason to trust Zondervan.

Remember this is Zondervan's titles, there paying the freight not Logos, and they are setting the price for retail not Logos. It's the same for the IVP collections or Nelson collections. So I don't see how you're looking to Logos for some kind of minimal cost to replace what you bought in Pradis.

Bobby

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Donovan R. Palmer | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 10 2009 9:26 AM

I think we have to continue to keep in mind that Zondervan is not going out of business... if they were going bankrupt, this would be fruitless discussion. However, Zondervan will make a profit this year (hopefully) and will make profit on the future sales of it's electronic products. I am of the genuine belief that Zondervan will actually make MORE money in the long run from using an industry standard like Logos as opposed to developing their own proprietary program.  Think of the savings of not having to maintain Pradis for starters.

Because Zondervan's digital products are going to be on ongoing business, it is wrong for users who put their trust in the company's long term digital strategy, to have to pay now that Zondervan is changing digital platforms. Zondervan needs to absorb the transition of users into their corporate costs associated with this change in strategy (aside from some token costs) and make just a bit less money this year.

Don't get me wrong, I am delighted Zondervan is coming to Logos and I am not anti corporations making money.  However, because Zondervan stands to make more money out of this move, it therefore needs to take care of its customers that it is in effect leaving stranded.   Pradis will die and it will break in the future as the Windows operating system changes.

This needs to be treated as a highly discounted crossgrade. These already exist in the industry... so it is not without precedence.

Again, I don't stand to benefit from this except I think that this is a very interesting situation for people who have invested a lot of money in a digital product and the company is changing strategy. I don't know if this will set a "precedent", but I do think it is a very important decision we all need to keep an eye on.

Posts 516
Bobby Terhune | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 10 2009 9:40 AM

Donovan,

My only thought about what you wrote is this. Let's pretend Pradis version 7 came out to support Windows 7. Zondervan would charge it's users all over again to "upgrade" to the new platform, even thought it's users had already purchased the license to the book title from them. That's what Zondervan's policy has been since the early 1990's. So even if Zondervan had kept Pradis, we would still be paying for "future operating system compatibility" for the same book titles.

There is hope of course that Zondervan will change it's past policies and cross upgrade Pradis to Logos. It's just a hope that I won't be holding my breath for!

Bobby

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 10 2009 9:41 AM

BobbyTerhune:

I bought Zondervan's NIDOTTE/NIDNTTE twice now and the EBC three times, each time no reasonable upgrade was offered. It was cheaper to buy new from and online retailer! Zondervan didn't even offer to update book files when known errors were fixed.

These three titles are important enough to me that I will pay (whatever Logos decides) once more for  them and hopefully it will be my last purchase of these titles!

Bobby

Bobby,

Logos doesn't get to set the price! This really is out of their control. The secular publishing companies woke up to the fact there is a lot of money spent on Christian books, music and software. They went out and bought up all the major Christian publishing houses. They are not in the game to preach the gospel or build up the church. The guys at the top just look at the bottom line. Sure they are a business. But Hudson Taylor's admonition is "God's work, done God's way, will never lack God's supply."

I have a peace about Logos software in the immediate future because they are privately held. If they should ever be bought out, expect some negative developments. (I'm curious if that isn't what almost happened in Logos'  Initial Public Offering.) We will ultimately have to decide if Zondervan's material is useful enough to pay for again at whatever price Zondervan sets.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 10 2009 9:57 AM

Donovan R. Palmer:

Again, I don't stand to benefit from this except I think that this is a very interesting situation for people who have invested a lot of money in a digital product and the company is changing strategy. I don't know if this will set a "precedent", but I do think it is a very important decision we all need to keep an eye on.

Donovan,

The good precedent has already been set by the "other" major Bible software company. Everybody had invested heavily in the STEP format (remember all the Christian software publishers claimed it was the standard?).  Then when the "other" company introduced a new format they offered VERY GENEROUS cross-grade discounts to help users transition.  Now they offer a free compatible program and dozens (hundreds?) of free titles.  That is a precedent.. Being stingy with your customer base when they were  faithful while the rest of the world derided you is not a precedent to be proud of.

 

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Posts 516
Bobby Terhune | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 10 2009 10:16 AM

Matthew,

You are correct. I still believe these titles are worth repurchashing again at the prices that are listed on the prepub page even if we don't get a deep discount for cross upgrading.

Bobby

Posts 1134
Juanita | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 10 2009 10:19 AM

This is what Zondervan emailed to me (and probably the same to others who inquired about the transition):

"Zondervan is going to make sure we work with the Pradis customers for a smooth transition to other search engines. Current Pradis customers will be eligible for a discount directly from Zondervan when new titles become available. The discount details will be announced in Zondervan’s Digital Resources e-newsletter "

"a smooth transition to other search engines" ???   Who defines what this is??  It sounds like Zondervan.

"Zondervan is going to make sure we work with Pradis customers..."  What does this mean?

My conclusion is that it sounds very nice.  And I will be pleasantly surprised if I who am a Pradis customer will find that Zondervan will work with me for a smooth transition.

And the flip side of this issue is being a Pradis customer and never dreaming that you might find yourself in a position to have to shift to Logos software or stick with what you have without a future.

Posts 516
Bobby Terhune | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 10 2009 10:30 AM

If we have to buy the titles directly from Zondervan to get the discount it would seem Logos is out of the picture as far as helping us out. I wonder if the prepub price is already going to be the best price? I say this because in the past "Zondervan Upgrades" have been cheaper elsewhere.

Bobby

Posts 120
Steve Robinson | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 10 2009 12:12 PM

It's still my belief that any decision of the cost of upgrading/converting Pradis resources to Libronix will be up to Zondervan and not Logos. There has been no indication that Logos will have even the slightest say, other than this "survey type" question by Dan which started this discussion, (and doesn't identify Logos' "power" to influence the outcome in any way).

Zondervan will set the pricing and it will not be reflective of Logos past practices. As very clear evidence, look again at the Pre-Pub prices for the individual Zondervan products: "Pre-Pub Special Price" = "Logos Sales Price" = "Suggested Retail Price." NO DISCOUNTS! NO LOGOS (influence)! ALL ZONDERVAN (still)!

It's Zondervan! The format is new, but the company remains the same. While I maintain some hope to be pleasantly surprised or even shocked (if it were free), I also need to be realistic, which is why I have no reason to expect that the leopard will change his spots, lest I be disappointed, frustrated and even angry when it doesn't happen. That's the danger of questions and discussions like this that build people's hopes when you have little or know control in making their desires a reality, which I fear is the case here.

Again, with no disrespect intended, I have to believe that Dan pretty much knew what we expected/wanted when he asked his question, although he also knew it would never be a consensus. He knows us pretty well by now and, let's be frank, it's not a hard answer to figure out. So please just have Zondervan tell us what the policy is going to be (as they indicated on their site that they would be the source of the info), so I can start my saving and decision-making and maybe even (because I still have an ounce of hope) celebrating.

Thanks.

Posts 1134
Juanita | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 10 2009 1:09 PM

One of the factors that makes "change' more acceptable is to give those who are the objects of the change a voice or the ability to participate.  To me, this thread is more like hoping and venting; I don't think my opinion will change what Zondervan will do or has done already.  (I want to be wrong, too.)   The way this is handled can be setting a precedent for what happens in similar situations in the future.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 10 2009 3:10 PM

JoanKorte:

One of the factors that makes "change' more acceptable is to give those who are the objects of the change a voice or the ability to participate.  To me, this thread is more like hoping and venting; I don't think my opinion will change what Zondervan will do or has done already.  (I want to be wrong, too.)   The way this is handled can be setting a precedent for what happens in similar situations in the future.

Anyone who has raised teenagers knows what it feels like to hope against the obvious. That is what we are doing here. Zondervan has already established their modus operandi. They don't really need anybody to buy the Libronix version of the NIV stuff since two years from now NIV2011 will be out and they will re-issue all their publications as "new, with fresh insights, more scholarly, and relevant to the emerging church!" (Remember, according to them, a full 10% of the NIV has become obsolete.)

When everybody started clamoring for Zondervan's titles in Libronix format, people at Logos apparently went to bat for us. Like Rachel imploring Jacob ("Give me a child lest I die!"), we demanded Logos get Zondervan for us. (Logos could have answered us, "Am I God that I can deliver Zondervan at a low price?"  Well, we got what we asked for, warts and all. We need to decide if the ugly bride is worth marrying. We will have to look at her face across he table every morning for the rest of our days. Just be sure her cooking is good enough to compensate. (Please pardon my chauvinism - I know there are many beautiful ladies who are also marvelous cooks. I think you get my point tho'.)

To Logos I give a hearty THANK YOU!        To Zondervan, I also say thank you.    Now if only my eyesight would dim as my appetite grows.Cake

 

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Posts 390
Alain Maashe | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 10 2009 4:27 PM

JoanKorte:

One of the factors that makes "change' more acceptable is to give those who are the objects of the change a voice or the ability to participate.  To me, this thread is more like hoping and venting; I don't think my opinion will change what Zondervan will do or has done already.  (I want to be wrong, too.)   The way this is handled can be setting a precedent for what happens in similar situations in the future.

I believe Zondervan is listening (it would be foolish to ignore free feedback from a key segment of its customer base).

I do not expect the money making machine that is Zondervan to do anything out of the goodness of their heart or out of any sense of Christian responsibility (it is after all a secular company using the Faith as a source of gain to put it bluntly)

But if it is a well run business, they have to listen to their customer base or risk alienating them.

Most of us here have a circle of influence that should not be easily overlooked by Zondervan.

Many years ago, I book the EBC set based on the recommendation of one of my professors( since then, I have bought some Zondervan resources three times with the change from STEPS to Pradis and from Pradis 5 to 6 )  . Today, I find myself in the position to make recommendations to a large number of students each semester.  Zondervan can rest assured that the way they treat us, previous users of STEPS and Pradis, will determine what sort of recommendation I will make (there is also such a thing as actively recommending people to stay away from some resources).  This also extends to the adoption of textbooks for the classroom.

I expect Zondervan to do the right thing from a business perspective and build goodwill with a sizeable and influential portion of its consumer base.

What we need to clearly communicate to Zondervan is the fact that we will not be indifferent to whatever decision they take and that a short term gain might result in substantial long term losses and absorbing a short term loss might yield greater dividends in the future.

There is an opportunity for a win-win situation

 

Alain

 

 

 

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Kevin A. Purcell | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 12 2009 6:12 AM

BobbyTerhune:

I think the issue is Zondervan losing money not Logos. As I stated earlier, Bob P has said most of their customers don't buy extra books beyond their initial purchase. So, not much of a win for Logos on that front.

But this has more to do with them buying Pradis in order to get access to Zondervan titles.  When I bought my one Zondervan title on Pradis I decided that I would not buy another one.  However, when I bought my first Logos (technically ebible) product I loved it so much that I wanted more and go the scholar's library.

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 12 2009 4:34 PM

curious about the overlap, if any, of Logos' "pre-pub" price for Z products and Z's offering of some undisclosed discount to current Pradis Customers.  Could there be a scenario where the books are published, the pre-pub price vanishes, and THEN Z decides to offer a discount price that is higher than what the Logos prepub price was ?  I'd like to know the discount before then.

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

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Steve Robinson | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 12 2009 5:30 PM

Daniel DeVilder:

curious about the overlap, if any, of Logos' "pre-pub" price for Z products and Z's offering of some undisclosed discount to current Pradis Customers.  Could there be a scenario where the books are published, the pre-pub price vanishes, and THEN Z decides to offer a discount price that is higher than what the Logos prepub price was

Aren't the possibilities already complicated and confusing enough with what we do know (or think we maybe might think we know)?  

It reminds me of the old   "Who's on first?"   "Yes."    "I mean the fellow's name."     "Who."    "The guy on first..."   routine.

It's enough to make a guy's head hurt if he thinks about it too much.


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Jacob Hantla | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 12 2009 6:48 PM

My understanding of the post that started this thread is that Logos isn't going to be uninvolved in the process and is going to start bringing their brand of customer service to these resources. 

Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 13 2009 10:32 AM

Jacob Hantla:
My understanding of the post that started this thread is that Logos isn't going to be uninvolved in the process and is going to start bringing their brand of customer service to these resources

 

True, but I doubt they will have control over when and how Z decides on its discount policy for current Pradis users.  And generally, once a work is "produced" the pre-pub price goes out the window.  So, if i cancel my current Z pre-pub, will that turn out to bite me if i wait to see what Z will do for me?  Maybe it will be a wash.  In that case, I would keep my pre-pub.  Or, maybe they will say "Hey Dan, thanks for your service.  You can upgrade your $1,000+ library to Logos for 300 dollars."

who knows! :)

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

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Dan Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 30 2009 6:43 PM

PeterLi:

Hi Logos / Dan P,

Was there any decision on what kind of discounts may be offered to users who own Pradis titles and want to get the corresponding titles in Logos?

Thanks,

Peter

 

Not yet. The "powers that be" at Zondervan are actually reading over all the feedback on this forum to inform their decision.

Having spent many hours with them personally here in Bellingham as well as on the phone and in email, I am encouraged by their interest in really listening to customers before making a decision. They are a good bunch of guys trying to do the best thing for their existing customers, future customers and their employer.

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 30 2009 7:52 PM

DanPritchett:

Not yet. The "powers that be" at Zondervan are actually reading over all the feedback on this forum to inform their decision.

Having spent many hours with them personally here in Bellingham as well as on the phone and in email, I am encouraged by their interest in really listening to customers before making a decision. They are a good bunch of guys trying to do the best thing for their existing customers, future customers and their employer

it's good to hear your "feel" for the situation, Dan.  It is often too easy for us to "go off" on people, and not really know the situation.

However, I think a lot of the hand wringing (certainly mine) stems from the major investment many of us make on shoe-string budgets.  For many of us, our books are not just resources, but in some ways "life lines" (without trying to be overly dramatic about it).  We depend on these things for ideas, inspiration, and (for solo pastors like me) "dialogue' as we work through tough issues with few around us to hash out theological problems.  I do not buy cable tv.  I don't even have a data package where i can text message or surf the net on my phone.  I am blessed with two vehicles, both made in the 90's with 156-178K on them.  But I do invest heavily in biblical and ministry resources.  And I have taken a leap of faith (and convenience) by investing in digital resources.  (here is where Joe Miller can say Caveat Emptor)  I know businesses need to profit,  But if there are many out there like me who do not have high paying pastorates, we simply don't have much financial wiggle room.  I can not say I am entitled to deep discounts and freebies and the like.  But what I can express is anxiety that my investment will turn sour and I will be left without resources that I count on to do my work.  If every few years I have to worry that the thousands (which I have put into my digital library the last 3 years or so) are going to disappear like vapor . . . that is a huge ministry and financial burden.

Honestly, I am willing to pay a little for innovation.  I would even pay (but don't tell this to the Pritchett brothers) for platform upgrades--within reason.  But I can't keep essentially rebuying whole libraries everytime a platform changes.  I just literally can not afford it.   And if this trend of uncertainty with Pre-Pradis/Pradis etc keeps unfolding, or spreading into other platforms, I simply can't keep up and will stop buying digital because I can't trust that my very real and costly investment will be usable after 5-10 years.

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

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SteveF | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 30 2009 8:16 PM

QUOTE: The "powers that be" at Zondervan are actually reading over all the feedback on this forum to inform their decision.

Dear Zondervan "Powers" Big Smile

First, Thank you for listening to your customers and being willing to do a "deal" with Logos  (yes, I have 4-5 of the Pradis line (NIV Zondervan's 5.0 Leaders Library Bundle; Expositor's OT & NT Commentary set; Creative Bible Study; and the 6.0 NIV Application NT plus Prophets). I was one of those who sent emails to you asking you to consider this move.

  There were and are many of your products that I would have liked to have bought. But (for many reasons) I was committed to the Logos "engine." The above Pradis products were ones I could just not do without -- they were not available in Logos, so I bought them from you. Unfortunately, for your company, I instead bought "a lot" from Logos.

I do not yet know if I will re-buy the above, (probably not, until they "wear out" but I will definitely be buying some of your offerings now that Logos has the right to sell them. The NT & OT "Background Commentaries" come to mind.

I am not asking for any "help" or "break" on pricing -- I am just pleased that I can now purchase your product - I have received good value for the items I purchased from Zondervan but these 4-5 items were but a small fraction of my Logos purchases.- (With respect) If your software catalogue had remained "Pradis" I would not have purchased it due to my appreciation for the underlying Logos "engine."

Thank you for listening to some of us and for agreeing to work with Logos. I hope that it is a very successful arrange for both companies.

Stephen Filyer.

Regards, SteveF

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