Discounts on Zondervan's Logos editions for Pradis users

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Jim Dean | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 31 2009 5:15 AM

As many have said, this is a business decision.  That decision involves MANY factors, both re current costs, future revenues, and legal obligations.

From the customer's point of view, they have already paid for a version of the product.  Some people have paid for a hardcopy AND a Pradis version.  No one likes to have to pony up a second (or third) time for the same "core" product.

But, hey, customers - how many times have you bought a 2nd or Revised edtion of a hardcopy book (or Bible) because of a relatively small percentages of changes made to it ... sometimes just formatting.  Witness the genesis of the Scofield Bible, for instance.  Why did you buy it, and pay FULL price all over again for it?  Presumably because you felt the INCREMENTAL additions to it were worth it.

The Pradis edition of the book was just a form of "upgrade" to the hardcopy, when viewed this way.  Some people who already owned the hardcopy ALSO bought it from Z, since the added features of an electronic copy outweighed the additional cost.  That is a buyer's decision.  Z did put in effort and investment to make it available ... so they deserve to be paid for it.  There was no practical way for them to offer "tradeins" of electronic-for-hardcopy ... the hardcopies (used) would have been of no value to them. 

Now we have the upgrade to the Logos edition of the same product.  OK ... it definitely offers new features and capabilities ... we all have great confidence in Logos' tools and capabilities in that regard.  Logos is DEFINITELY putting significant effort into the conversion of the Pradis files to Libronix format.  Sure, some of it can be done in "batch mode", but since L offers a lot more keylinking and Topical capabilities than P, from that perspective it's a new ball game.

Logos deserves, imho, EXACTLY the same profit margin for their work on this that they get for any other ebook they publish.  So, from that perspective, the upgrade should NOT make L bite the bullet.

But hey ... wait a minute here ... this is a BUSINESS decision.  Why did L want to do business with Rupert's group, anyway?  Certainly not familial ties ;~) ... it was simply because Z owns the rights to a LOT of good titles that will benefit the Christian community ... and that's L's goal ... to offer EVERYTHING, eventually, through their platform.  But, L is not a charity ... they make business decisions like anyone else.

This is quite similar to how a business approaches R&D costs ... or how they deal with moving overseas ... or how they handle buying out another company.  I've been involved in all three, and believe me it is NOT simple, it is NOT clearcut, and it is NOT without much emotional baggage that these things get pulled off.  So, there are eggshells and thumbtacks all over the place.

L wants not only to get those titles for OUR use ... but also for the health and future of THEIR company.  So, if you consider this massive rewrite of the keylinks from that perspective, it's like R&D or a buyout ... the costs need to be absorbed and spread over several years' expected future revenues.  That is, Logos DOES deserve to be paid for their work, but that payment should NOT necessarily be "up front", since they are benefitting bigtime from a longterm perspective.

Keep in mind how this software business stuff works ... generally speaking, all the "manufacturing" is only done ONCE.  All the "raw materials" are only purchased ONCE.  From then on out, after licensing fees are covered, it's all GRAVY.  So, imho, L ought to make sure their costs are covered (that's just good stewardship), but they should view that as occuring gradually over the course of the next five or even ten years (yep ... the Z deal definitely will increase L's revenues going out that far).

But what about Rupert's crew?  What should they be getting out of this?  Weeeelll ... they are getting a LOT, just by shifting their titles over to the PRIMO platform ... primo by many miles .... and really unlikely to be overtaken.  This will CLEARLY help Z's sales, and will CLEARLY (let's not miss this, folks) allow Z to REDUCE their costs since they don't have to finance software devel or support any more.  Z is the big winner, here, from what I can see.  They are not losing ANYTHING, and they are gaining a lot.  Yes, they are providing the titles to L, and that is worth a lot.  BUT, only if L does all the work.

One very interesting thing about business is the VALUE of a CUSTOMER LIST.  Many lawsuits about non-compete clauses center around this.  Oft-times a business is purchased by competitor JUST TO GET THE CUSTOMERS ... the plants and products are incidental.  It's safe to say that L's customer list, esp their REPEAT customer list, leave's Pradis' in the dust.

So, which is worth more? The titles, or the customer list?  Well, apparently L and Z have hashed that out ... and I hope that it was considered an even-steven exchange.

Now, we're back again to good ole Z ... what have they LOST?  Nothing.  They've TRADED titles for customers. A good deal.  What are their COSTS?  Nothing.  What are their SAVINGS.  A lot ... reduced staff, reduced marketing expenses, reduced warrantee exposure.

Nutshell ... Z ought to pay L to do all the work to convert the product.  That would be fair ... from a cost/revenue standpoint, of course just from my uninformed perspective, since I haven't seen the balance sheets or revenue projections yadda yadda.

But - what about the CUSTOMER?  Ah, yes, that unimportant little pipsqueak that is at the business-end of the lash.  The customer has only THREE things in their power:

1. Their pocketbook.  They can buy, or not buy.  They can upgrade, or not upgrade. 

2. Their mouths.  They can complain, or applaud.  They can tell ALL their friends (and their congregations and denominations - naaawww ;~)

3. Their attorneys.  If Z has provided a product (Pradis) with "reasonable expectation of continuance" of support for future use, and if it can be clearly demonstrated that the value of that product (the ebook) is cut off by THEIR (Z's) actions in a conscious, premeditated way ... WOW ... sounds like a big class-action lawsuit just waiting to happen.  And just think how EASY it would be for those attorneys to subpoena Rupert's files re who bought what, to find their list of class-action clients?

I mention #3 only because probably most of the people on this thread have not thought of it, since I suspect most of them have not had to wade thru the mud in the secular corporate business world to see how things happen.  However, I'm sure that Z has considered this, and I'm sure it affects their decisions to some degree.  So, it's worth mentioning.

All in all ... the longterm costs to Z to give a freebie upgrade to registered P users would be a DROP IN THE BUCKET.  The good will they would generate ... and believe me they NEED to generate some good will ... would cost them MUCH more through any other means.  And due to the arguments I provided earlier, L's costs should ALSO be covered by Z.  That is, if Z is smart, long term, about all this.

I'm sad to say that as an ORGANIZATION, it's unlikely that Z will be operating based on Biblical principles.  I'm glad that the individuals who are working with Dan and Bob are apparently straight-up guys ... but the corporate culture always dictates in these situations.  So, my discussion above has been almost purely from that perspective.

I personally never do business or make decisions in this kind of way.  But after three decades in secular business, domestically and internationally, I've seen the way things work and hope that this perspective might somehow be useful.

Not a simple problem.

Nutshell:  At the boardroom table, this has EVERYTHING to do with desired future perceptions and income streams, and LITTLE to do with current costs and licenses.

=============
Redeeming the time (Eph.5:16+Col.4:5) ...
Jim Dean

Posts 8601
TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 31 2009 5:23 AM

Daniel DeVilder:
Honestly, I am willing to pay a little for innovation.  I would even pay (but don't tell this to the Pritchett brothers) for platform upgrades--within reason.  But I can't keep essentially rebuying whole libraries everytime a platform changes.  I just literally can not afford it.   And if this trend of uncertainty with Pre-Pradis/Pradis etc keeps unfolding, or spreading into other platforms, I simply can't keep up and will stop buying digital because I can't trust that my very real and costly investment will be usable after 5-10 years.

It may not be entirely pragmatic but the textbook response to this is that "in 5-10 and even 50 years the existing Pradis Engine will still work on the same windows platform you're using now."

I know that new Operating Systems will break Pradis eventually and all of that, but the answer is that pradis should continue to function for the near future.

Truth Is Still Truth Even if You Don't Believe It

Check the Wiki

Warning: Sarcasm is my love language. I may inadvertently express my love to you.

Posts 60
Richard Crampton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 31 2009 6:44 AM

Thank God for virtual machines!  I may be running Pradis on one in the years to come.  If Zondervan's upgrade price is anything like it's been in the past that's the route I'll choose.  I spent several hundred dollars on Pradis resources and I refuse to pay anything more than a minimal fee to upgrade them to Logos. In fact, I would have to swallow hard to do that.  When Wordsearch switched from step to cross there were no fees unless your resources were from a third party.  Even then the fees were very reasonable. I recognize others feel differently and are willing to pay more but that's my stand!  

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 31 2009 6:47 AM

Thomas Black:
It may not be entirely pragmatic but the textbook response to this is that "in 5-10 and even 50 years the existing Pradis Engine will still work on the same windows platform you're using now."

 

Maybe you are right, but that is NOT my experience with my first EBC set.  When I bought my first XP computer, it would not work--the graphics were all messed up.  OR, with my LessonMaker.  I have an earlier version (3 or 4?) and I can not load it on my XP computer now.  Maybe compatibility and longevity issues have changed, I don't know.  I just have my experience to go on, and it ain't good.  And there is a big difference between something I paid 50 bucks for and something I have spent thousands on.  Well, I have not yet spent that much on Pradis, but it is closer to 1,000 than it is 0.  Logos as been thousands, however.

Dan

 

PS-oh, I just noticed what you said the same OS i am using NOW.  Oh, Ok.  Well, that also assumes that my laptop will run that long, and it has been on the blink lately.

I wonder how long Z stuff will stay on Logos, before it gets swallowed up in glo?  (which looks cool on the demo btw).  Maybe the two will merge somehow . . . .

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

Posts 60
Richard Crampton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 31 2009 6:57 AM

Daniel if those EBC files are step you can run them in xp with a couple of programs.  Wordsearch 5 runs them and so does ESword.  

Posts 108
Brooks Cochran | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 31 2009 7:02 AM

I would personally be willing to surrender all my Pradis Software, as proof that I own the product, in exchange for the CD's that will run under Logos.

Posts 90
Chris Hulshof | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 31 2009 9:45 AM

Would it be possible to have a program that would convert the Pradis files into Libronix files?  I'd even accept this if it only provided the limited amount of notes and cross references that come with Pradis products rather then the extensive ones found in Logos. I'd be willing to pay a reasonable fee for a program that would take my registered EBC Commentary, NIV Application Commentary, and other products and convert them to Libronix and move them into my Logos library.  I could convince myself I'm not paying for something I have already if this were the case. If the price becomes prohibitive and the discounts are merely "token" I will run Pradis till it dies. Then, I would only be interested in the EBC and NIV Application Commentary.  Like others in here, I simply can't afford to repurchase something I already have.  

Chris Hulshof

 

"If heaven ain't a gift I ain't gettin' in." - Lecrae Moore

Posts 1129
Juanita | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 31 2009 11:43 AM

Daniel DeVilder:

Maybe you are right, but that is NOT my experience with my first EBC set.  When I bought my first XP computer, it would not work--the graphics were all messed up.  OR, with my LessonMaker.  I have an earlier version (3 or 4?) and I can not load it on my XP computer now.  Maybe compatibility and longevity issues have changed, I don't know.  I just have my experience to go on, and it ain't good.  And there is a big difference between something I paid 50 bucks for and something I have spent thousands on.  Well, I have not yet spent that much on Pradis, but it is closer to 1,000 than it is 0.  Logos as been thousands, however.

Dan

 

  Hi Dan,  I did get your contact info and sent one back to you; but I don't know if it workedBig Smile  In  short, I asked if you and your wife would like to meet for coffee in Monroe.  My phone number is under my last name Korte, J with the address on Bay view in Frenchtown.  Or just call to say hi.  God Bless

Joan Korte

Posts 118
Andrew Chuter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 31 2009 12:15 PM

On the issue of the longevity of Pradis and whether there will be a necessity to transfer to Zondervan products on Logos........ does anyone know whether existing Pradis products will run on Windows 7?

                                     Andrew

Posts 60
Richard Crampton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 31 2009 12:18 PM

It runs great under Windows 7, no issues at all.

Posts 118
Andrew Chuter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 31 2009 12:23 PM

Richard - Thanks, that's reassuring!

                    Andrew

Posts 118
Andrew Chuter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 31 2009 2:00 PM

A further thought......presumably with the issuing of 'Glo' it will be in Zondervan's commercial interest to show that they support existing users of their software products.

                            Andrew

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 31 2009 8:14 PM

Thomas Black:

It may not be entirely pragmatic but the textbook response to this is that "in 5-10 and even 50 years the existing Pradis Engine will still work on the same windows platform you're using now."

I know that new Operating Systems will break Pradis eventually and all of that, but the answer is that pradis should continue to function for the near future.

Tom,

That assumes it functioned properly the first time around, which it didn't. That is why Pradis is being abandoned.

I maintain legacy hardware & operating systems and still run "ancient" software that still works as it should.. I still have a lot of STEP books and access them as much as Pradis.You can imagine my happiness with Windows 7.Even though I have my virtual machines, I would gladly surrender all my Pradis software to get a reasonable price on Zondervan titles in Logos. (Scholar Edition Library 5.1, NIDOTTE, NIDNTT, EBC among others.)

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

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Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 31 2009 10:18 PM

Richard Crampton:

I have several hundred dollars invested in Pradis and significantly more in Logos.  Frankly, it irritates me to no end that I would have to pay anything extra to switch my resources from Pradis to Logos.  I already paid for my resources!   I know this is not Logos' fault.  I appreciate their efforts in bringing Zondervan resources to Logos.  But  Zondervan is crazy if they think they are going to get another penny from me!   

I have empathy with your situation and have found myself in a similar situation many times. I hope you do get a discount. But to take another point of view, did you get a discount when you upgraded from a paperback student bible to a hard cover, and then another when you got a leather one? I do know it;s not the exact same thing but to the publishers it is. You bought a copy if you want a copy that has been distributed in a different format, you will have to pay the exact same thing or ore for the upgraded or fancier edition. Zondervan and Nelson have often been guilty of updating the dust jackets and sometimes even the names of products and I am sure that gets them a few people who think it's new, or want a copy that has been updated (minor corrections and or a new name). Even the tyndale commentaries have just got new covers recently. I suppose I have gotten a bit off topic but as I pointed out before a new cover  (engine) isn't anyones right, it;s something that our consumer society desires, is it something we need (I know that when we upgrade our computers the old software may not work but if if worked properly when we first bought it, we have little recourse of our rights),

 

“You received without payment; give without payment.” Matthew 10:8,   “fBut the word of God is not chained.” 2 Timothy 2:9,   “ “The laborer deserves to be paid.” 1 Timothy 5:18,  NRSV.

Or to quote bonhoffer grace is free but never cheap. Thank God for the ability to have access to such scholarship and soul nourishing works.

Posts 390
Alain Maashe | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 31 2009 11:52 PM

DanielWFrancis:

 

I have empathy with your situation and have found myself in a similar situation many times. I hope you do get a discount. But to take another point of view, did you get a discount when you upgraded from a paperback student bible to a hard cover, and then another when you got a leather one? I do know it;s not the exact same thing but to the publishers it is. You bought a copy if you want a copy that has been distributed in a different format, you will have to pay the exact same thing or ore for the upgraded or fancier edition. Zondervan and Nelson have often been guilty of updating the dust jackets and sometimes even the names of products and I am sure that gets them a few people who think it's new, or want a copy that has been updated (minor corrections and or a new name). Even the tyndale commentaries have just got new covers recently. I suppose I have gotten a bit off topic but as I pointed out before a new cover  (engine) isn't anyones right, it;s something that our consumer society desires, is it something we need (I know that when we upgrade our computers the old software may not work but if if worked properly when we first bought it, we have little recourse of our rights),

It would be useful to compare apples to apples.

A digital copy of a book cannot be compared to a print copy.

Changes in format i.e. from hardcover to paperback or from one cover design to another or even changes is the presentation of the work (such as what IVP is doing with the print edition of the TOTC and TNTC) do not impact one's ability to use the resources in the short or long term. The one thing you need is to take good care of your books and have good eyesight. Print resources do not require post sale support by the publisher (this is why we will never hear Zondervan announcing that support for the print edition of EBC will cease in 8 months, not that I would care J). When I buy a book in print format, the purchase simultaneously marks the beginning and the end of my relationship concerning this resource with the publisher as no support is needed or expected.

The same cannot be said of digital resources. Good eyesight and good maintenance of the electronic files are not enough. Other factors come into play: The platform in which the product was published often needs to be updated and optimized. Patches need to be issued to insure compatibility with a host of hardware and software. Such compatibility becomes even more critical when new generation of hardware and software replace the older ones (chief concern being compatibility with the OS).

In the first case, you do not need the publisher/vendor to enjoy your print resources for years or even for decades to come (you do not even need the Papyri maker’s input  to read a 3000 year old ancient document)

In the second case, you are almost always depending on the publishers/ creator of the electronic platform for continuous usage of the product past a few years. In some cases it takes a new OS to render the product unusable, in others, it makes take longer; but the bottom line is the same, soon or later, your electronic resources will become unusable when the platform in which it is published becomes obsolete.

By deciding to stop supporting Pradis, Zondervan has issued a death sentence for the resources published in that format (and thus decided that I will eventually lose the hundreds and hundreds of dollars that I invested in Pradis unless I somehow migrate to the new platform that is supported). it could take as long as Windows 7 is supported or sold or it could be in a few decades (less likely), but what is certain is that there will soon come a point where my Pradis resources will be inaccessible and my investment will be worth zero no matter how well I maintain the resources (in sharp contrast to print books that will easily outlive me; which is ironic since electronic media is supposed to last longer than print media).

What many of us Pradis owners do not like is the programmed obsolescence that Zondervan is imposing on our investment. It is not like Zondervan is going out of business and cannot support Pradis.

We would have little reasons to complain if Zondervan has decided to continue the support for Pradis (with more than lip service); then and only then, your comparison would be valid

Because I wanted to protect my investment against obsolescence, I have upgraded from STEPS; to Pradis 5 and then to Pradis 6. I have substantially invested in Zondervan electronic products.

But it has come to a point where, with my limited resources, I have to say enough is enough. I will not continue to pay just to continue using the resources I already own .

Like some have said in this thread, I am not looking for new shiny features (they would be welcome but are not necessary); I just want to preserve my investment and be a good steward

I like Zondervan products (this is why I purchased so many of them in the first place); but if this turns out to be a non-reciprocal relationship, I will cut my loses and seriously reassess my relationship with Zondervan.

As someone else mentioned, this is a unique opportunity for Zondervan to build a lot of goodwill with long time and faithful customers (following Logos’ example). This issue is a test that will reveal Zondervan’s true-self and determine what can be expected of the company in the future.

Taking good care of loyal customer does not even have to be a Christian virtue, it is also  good business  practice, especially in a business where having repeat customer is crucial

 

Posts 271
Don | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 1 2009 11:06 AM
For comparison's sake then, how about

8-track to cassette to CD to MP3/iPod

or

Beta to VHS to DVD to Blu-Ray
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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 1 2009 12:04 PM

Those who have not invested heavily in the Pradis software like i & others have  ( i have all things Pradis - I have all the Pradis collection  ) seem not to want Zondervan to take a favourable view in helping Pradis users to make the transition to Logos. Why this is the case i am not sure.

One of the annoying aspects of all of this is Zondervan seem to have the habit of making its customers pay again for the products they have previously  'purchased'  each time there is a change in their software.  I can't keep on paying for the same product over and over again! My previous experience is that Zondervan does not only make you pay for the upgrade of the Software engine but also for the content of the product. Those who have invested in earlier edition of the Expositor Bible commentary, New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology and Exegesis and the New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology have had to pay again for the same product when the software turned Pradis or from Pradis 5 to 6.

This may be a good marketing strategy but what about the poor customer who has invested in their product?  Do they matter, this level of marketing cannot keep on going on.  Seriously I wish Zondervan will do the right thing by their customers.

Be honest with yourselves Zondervan you do not need anyone to tell you what would be the right thing to do on this occasion. The question is whether you have the courage & the best interest of your loyal customers to do right by them?  To charge only a very small fee (which is really a discount, I mean a real discount!) is the least you owe to your customers.

Ted

Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ

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Alain Maashe | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 1 2009 2:45 PM

Ted Hans:

Those who have not invested heavily in the Pradis software like i & others have  ( i have all things Pradis - I have all the Pradis collection  ) seem not to want Zondervan to take a favourable view in helping Pradis users to make the transition to Logos. Why this is the case i am not sure.

One of the annoying aspects of all of this is Zondervan seem to have the habit of making its customers pay again for the products they have previously  'purchased'  each time there is a change in their software.  I can't keep on paying for the same product over and over again! My previous experience is that Zondervan does not only make you pay for the upgrade of the Software engine but also for the content of the product. Those who have invested in earlier edition of the Expositor Bible commentary, New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology and Exegesis and the New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology have had to pay again for the same product when the software turned Pradis or from Pradis 5 to 6.

This may be a good marketing strategy but what about the poor customer who has invested in their product?  Do they matter, this level of marketing cannot keep on going on.  Seriously I wish Zondervan will do the right thing by their customers.

Be honest with yourselves Zondervan you do not need anyone to tell you what would be the right thing to do on this occasion. The question is whether you have the courage & the best interest of your loyal customers to do right by them?  To charge only a very small fee (which is really a discount, I mean a real discount!) is the least you owe to your customers.

Ted

 

Ted,

Amen and Amen to the words in bold

Alain

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 4 2009 8:43 AM

BobbyTerhune:

If we have to buy the titles directly from Zondervan to get the discount it would seem Logos is out of the picture as far as helping us out. I wonder if the prepub price is already going to be the best price? I say this because in the past "Zondervan Upgrades" have been cheaper elsewhere.

Bobby

 I only wish Zondervan was paying attention to the current Logos 4 roll-out.

If Zondervan priced their titles at deep discount probably 90% of the Logos user base would buy the collection. Since the delivery price is tiny and the same work will be done for 1 sale or 10,000 , selling a hundred thousand units at a modest profit is better than selling 500 units at overinflated pricing.

How about it Zondervan?

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 2651
Kevin A. Purcell | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 4 2009 2:54 PM

Matthew C Jones:
If Zondervan priced their titles at deep discount probably 90% of the Logos user base would buy the collection. Since the delivery price is tiny and the same work will be done for 1 sale or 10,000 , selling a hundered thousand units at a modest profit is better than selling 500 units at overinflated pricing.

 

Finally someone else gets it.

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