Discounts on Zondervan's Logos editions for Pradis users

Page 7 of 10 (194 items) « First ... < Previous 5 6 7 8 9 Next > ... Last »
This post has 193 Replies | 9 Followers

Posts 8967
RIP
Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 12 2009 1:26 PM

Daniel,

You are correct in pointing out Pradis still does what it always did, no matter how inferior Pradis is to Logos. No. Logos doesn't have to go with the ad-supported model. (That is not what Kevin said anyway.) Here are a couple quotes with my paraphrase:

"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose" - Jim Elliot. 
He is no fool who trades intangible digital streams for customer goodwill.

"But there is no cost whatsoever to Logos or Zondervan to give this away to a customer who never will buy it." - Kevin
Key phrase, "never buy it."

"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." - My dad's generation.
Fool me five times? I think not!

If you can't live without your Zondervan titles, no matter how badly they treat you, you will continue to be charged over & over for the same product. Why not just call it "renting" since that is what Z is doing to you?

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 274
Daniel Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 12 2009 1:53 PM

Matthew C Jones:

Daniel,

You are correct in pointing out Pradis still does what it always did, no matter how inferior Pradis is to Logos. No. Logos doesn't have to go with the ad-supported model. (That is not what Kevin said anyway.)

I wasn't saying he said that directly.  But if Logos is getting any of the revenue from the Zondervan titles, and then we say, "Give it to us for free," then Logos will have to make up the revenue in other ways - raising prices on other titles, finding ad support, or whatever.

Matthew C Jones:

 

"But there is no cost whatsoever to Logos or Zondervan to give this away to a customer who never will buy it." - Kevin
Key phrase, "never buy it."

I think there is a cost - support costs, upgrade cost, etc. I don't know which company ends up paying for the production, but Logos will at some point likely eat part of the cost for support in the long run.  Maybe it's minimal, maybe it isn't.  It's still not free, as best I can tell.

Matthew C Jones:

If you can't live without your Zondervan titles, no matter how badly they treat you, you will continue to be charged over & over for the same product. Why not just call it "renting" since that is what Z is doing to you?

I don't think this is fair either (your assessment). If Logos treats these products as they have all their other products, then this is the last time anyone should have to buy these titles. 

Zondervan has followed the Microsoft approach - each new revision of the product/engine has associated upgrade costs (ie Windows XP > Vista > 7), while Logos has chosen a different model - pay for books/resources, not the engine.  Am I then 'renting' Windows if I have to buy each new version?  Maybe.  Or maybe I'm just paying for a given product without the promise it will work forever, have all the newest features, and so on.  They are both legitimate models.  We may prefer one to the other.  And we can put our money to support one more than the other.  

It's like the upgrade from Logos 3 to Logos 4.  No one forced us to upgrade to Logos 4.  We wanted the features.  Some of them are different.  Some are not yet complete.  We chose to upgrade.  Should we get all the new content for free?  E.g. Biblical People, Places, Things?  I don't think so.

No one is forcing those of us who are Pradis users to upgrade.  We can construe it that way.  We may be disappointed or prefer all our resources to be in a single program, but the program still works, for the foreseeable future.  And even if Pradis doesn't work in Windows 8 or 10 or 20, it never promised to, as far as I know.

I want a discount, but I'm not going to pretend that it's an issue of loyalty.  "I'll stay with __ company as long as they always do everything the way I want."  It's an issue of stewardship (I can't afford to buy ___ again) or potentially a false sense of entitlement (You owe me ___, even if you never promised it). 

I hope we can get a discount, and I'm grateful they're giving us an opportunity to express our opinions.  We'll see what gets worked out.

Posts 8967
RIP
Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 12 2009 2:48 PM

Daniel Lee:
I wasn't saying he said that directly.  But if Logos is getting any of the revenue from the Zondervan titles, and then we say, "Give it to us for free," then Logos will have to make up the revenue in other ways - raising prices on other titles, finding ad support, or whatever.

I agree more than you imagine. I actually got hostile on these forums about Logos users reselling their "duplicate" titles after getting credit towards upgrades. (It doesn't seem to bother anybody else. Maybe because everybody else is hoping to do the same.)

Somebody does indeed have to pay for it. But the case here is Zondervan should. This is still not a Logos product. It only uses the Libronix format.  Yes, in the future it will be Logos that supports it. But I think you are mis-placing your customer goodwill that Logos has earned by giving some measure of credit (or forebearance for Zondervan's 70 x 7 offenses against you) to Zondervan. That is your choice (to keep paying repeatedly for using Z's titles) just like others have a choice to refuse, and criticize what they perceive as abandonment on Zondervan's part.

In an ideal world, Logos would buy the rights to Zondervan's collection and shove them out the door. Having to share the load on this project is being unequally yoked in the most basic sense.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 60
Richard Crampton | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 12 2009 3:43 PM

It seems to me that people with little to lose in this transition are very vocal about what they think is fair!  You'd feel differently if you had more invested.

Well, I own the Scholars Library, NIV Application Commentary (NT and The Prophets), the NT Backgrounds Commentary, the OT Theology and Exegesis, The Expositors and various books.  That includes almost everything offered in prepub minus the OT Backgrounds Commentary which is priced at $249.  That means that at prepub prices it would cost me $1750 to convert what I already own to Logos.  At 50% off it would cost me $875.  This is not acceptable to me!  In fact it's ludicrous and definitely not wise stewardship.  I will run Pradis on a virtual machine until the day I die before I give Zondervan any money to convert resources I already paid several hundred dollars for.   

Why did I invest so much in Pradis?   Because I was pretty certain that God was calling me to the mission field.  So I sold my paper library and bought electronic.  I originally had 5 different programs because I could only get certain resources from certain companies.  Now most of my resources are in Logos, Wordesearch and Pradis.  Using three programs doesn't bother me.  I have been doing it for 4 years.  It would be nice to get down 2 but I won't pay more to do it;)

Posts 2725
Kevin A. Purcell | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 12 2009 4:07 PM

Richard Crampton:
It seems to me that people with little to lose in this transition are very vocal about what they think is fair!  You'd feel differently if you had more invested.

Agreed.

And to my brother Daniel. I appreciate your attempt, but you do not understand the free economy that is becoming the norm on the Internet. You said what works for me is good for a single individual or a small company. But the king of this is Google.  Look at all they give away and have since they were just a tiny company and are now an 800 lb gorilla.  They have so much cash they do not know what to do. And they make a killing by giving away nearly all of what they produce.

No I don't want Logos to go ad based. But if they choose to give the older Z titles away they will reap a reward in future sales of their products. If they choose to not reward their loyal customers, they will not.

Posts 49
Jeffrey S Gordon | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 12 2009 4:15 PM

Dan, I presume this would be announced to those who already have pre-ordered the Zondervan package from Logos?  I have most of the large packages from Pradis, and will be delighted to delete them when the Logos version is released.

 

Posts 274
Mike W | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 12 2009 4:16 PM

Richard Crampton:

It seems to me that people with little to lose in this transition are very vocal about what they think is fair!  You'd feel differently if you had more invested.

Well, I own the Scholars Library, NIV Application Commentary (NT and The Prophets), the NT Backgrounds Commentary, the OT Theology and Exegesis, The Expositors and various books.  That includes almost everything offered in prepub minus the OT Backgrounds Commentary which is priced at $249.  That means that at prepub prices it would cost me $1750 to convert what I already own to Logos.  At 50% off it would cost me $875.  This is not acceptable to me!  In fact it's ludicrous and definitely not wise stewardship.  I will run Pradis on a virtual machine until the day I die before I give Zondervan any money to convert resources I already paid several hundred dollars for.   

Why did I invest so much in Pradis?   Because I was pretty certain that God was calling me to the mission field.  So I sold my paper library and bought electronic.  I originally had 5 different programs because I could only get certain resources from certain companies.  Now most of my resources are in Logos, Wordesearch and Pradis.  Using three programs doesn't bother me.  I have been doing it for 4 years.  It would be nice to get down 2 but I won't pay more to do it;)

 

I only own two packages in Pradis and when my prepubs ship Logos will be the only bible study program I'll leave on my computer.  Paper publishing is going through significant changes and publishers need to consider a long term strategy. Colleges are experimenting with using e-readers instead of paper books in the same way that they started experimenting with laptops several years ago (now, you can't attend college without a laptop, how long until electronic books overtake paper books?).  Anyone publishing books should consider early adopters in their long term strategy(I bought the Pradis resources on the recomendation of someone I respect).  Microsoft figured this out in the 80s and that is why Windows in 90% of market share and OS2 is ?.   While I don't feel that free (shipping and handling only) is completely fair to the companies involved I do believe that a substantial discount for Pradis users on the resources they already own would be in Zondervan's best interest over the long term.  As far as "would never buy them anyway" how do you determine this? 

 

Posts 390
Alain Maashe | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 13 2009 1:02 AM

Daniel Lee:

No one is forcing those of us who are Pradis users to upgrade.  We can construe it that way.  We may be disappointed or prefer all our resources to be in a single program, but the program still works, for the foreseeable future.  And even if Pradis doesn't work in Windows 8 or 10 or 20, it never promised to, as far as I know.

I want a discount, but I'm not going to pretend that it's an issue of loyalty.  "I'll stay with __ company as long as they always do everything the way I want."  It's an issue of stewardship (I can't afford to buy ___ again) or potentially a false sense of entitlement (You owe me ___, even if you never promised it). 

I hope we can get a discount, and I'm grateful they're giving us an opportunity to express our opinions.  We'll see what gets worked out.

Daniel,

I just hope that you do not run a business with this view of the way customers should expect from after purchasing your products.

Look around, if you see a successful company, it is a company that understands that a great product must be accompanied by an even greater customer service.

What you do not seem to understand is that in a free market society, you do not need an explicit promise to satisfy the customer by giving them the kind of product they expect, nor do you need to expressly state that you will do everything you can to preserve the value of their investment. No, these things do not have to be written on paper to be in effect. The free market takes care of it and ensures that those companies that thrive or even merely survive are the one that exceed even the unspoken expectations of their customers. It is not a coincidence that Pradis as a platform did not survive.

I might not be able to mount a legal case against Zondervan for poor customer service, but more than a court ruling, a loss of goodwill with their customer base will be detrimental to their bottom line especially since this is a business that relies on repeat customers and on those customers bringing other customers.

Your comparison of Zondervan with Microsoft is inappropriate at many levels.  Microsoft did not discontinue the support of Vista when they came out with Windows 7.  Microsoft has provided a very affordable upgrade path for users of previous versions of it OS (almost 90% off the list price in some cases). Microsoft has taken great care to ensure compatibility of programs between platforms (when I upgraded to Windows 7, I did not have to pay again for all the licenses of software I owned under Windows XP or Vista and there is even an XP mode in Windows 7 to help me run legacy programs).  

I do not remember signing a piece of paper telling me that I should expect that from Microsoft when they will come out with the new OS; but it is really the least they could do after laying an egg with Vista… at least if they expected me to remain a customer.

Call it false sense of entitlement if you want, I call it necessary conditions for a harmonious and enduring relationship between a customer and a corporation.

Now, all my machines at home (expect my netbook) run Windows 7. I am happy with the upgrade, they are happy with my money and the favorable recommendations I make on behalf of the new OS. It is a win-win situation and the way the free market economy works.

So yeah, Zondervan could well act as if they do not owe  us anything, but such a move would be very costly and not a good business decision.

I think they will do the math

Alain

Posts 2709
Forum MVP
Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 14 2009 5:14 AM

I am curious to know why the digital format of Zondervan product in Logos is more expensive than the print edition? I know Logos is not responsible for setting the price but Zondervan, & that Logos Pre-Pub price are competitive.  I thought it should be the other way round with digital being cheaper than the print edition. This does not make sense!

Don't read this as a complaint about Logos, it is not. I just don't understand why Zondervan have chosen to make their Logos edition very expensive!

http://blog.logos.com/archives/2009/09/zondervan_announces_partnership_with_logos_bible ( Zondervan resposible for setting the price)

Ted

 

 

Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ

Posts 383
Daniel Bender | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 14 2009 7:39 AM

I agree. I have most of the large packages from Pradis (EXBC; NICOTTE; NIDNT; NIVAC NT; and NIVAC OT Prophets) and am looking forward to having them in the Logos format. I just hope it will come at a significant discount. I was thinking about keeping the Pradis platform for these books but the functionality of Logos will move me to purchase them again. I'm still trying to figure out what to do with my print versions. I have always enjoyed being surrounded by my books and it has only been in the last 10 yrs that I moved to digital. You can't beat logos for the time it saves--and it's fun too.

Posts 383
Daniel Bender | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 14 2009 7:40 AM

I was trying to reply to Jeffrey Gordon's post

Posts 8967
RIP
Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 14 2009 9:27 AM

MikeWaterhouse:
Paper publishing is going through significant changes and publishers need to consider a long term strategy. Colleges are experimenting with using e-readers instead of paper books in the same way that they started experimenting with laptops several years ago (now, you can't attend college without a laptop, how long until electronic books overtake paper books?).  Anyone publishing books should consider early adopters in their long term strategy(I bought the Pradis resources on the recomendation of someone I respect).  Microsoft figured this out in the 80s and that is why Windows in 90% of market share and OS2 is ?. 

Mike,

You say, "Paper publishing is going through significant changes and publishers need to consider a long term strategy."
I noticed the CBD price on Zondervan's Pictorial Bible Encyclopedia is $40 (retail $170.) Traditional publishing isn't making much money that way. Maybe they should open their eyes. The future is here.

You also say, "As far as 'would never buy them anyway' how do you determine this?"
You can't be absolutely certain. It is like buying gasoline at $6/gallon at Needles, California as you enter Death Valley. You might have to do it, but you won't be a happy customer. (It turns customer loyalty inside out - Not a vote for, but a vote against.) I doubt Zondervan will buy out Logos anymore than I will drive through Needles again.

Before everybody gives Zondervan a pass for bad behavior paid for with customer goodwill earned by Logos, consider there is NO LOYALTY here towards Logos on Zondervan's part. The announcement for abandoning Pradis said Zondervan will be publishing their titles in multiple formats. You can bet Zondervan does not gouge the "other guys" as deeply as the Logos customers. (Unless they consider our posts. Their track record says they won't.) To apply this to our "gasoline in Needles" analogy, It is like charging the Cadillac owners $6/gallon and the Chevy owners $3/gallon.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 274
Mike W | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 14 2009 10:42 AM

Matthew C Jones:

You say, "Paper publishing is going through significant changes and publishers need to consider a long term strategy."
I noticed the CBD price on Zondervan's Pictorial Bible Encyclopedia is $40 (retail $170.) Traditional publishing isn't making much money that way. Maybe they should open their eyes. The future is here.

My guess is that the CBD price is a close out.  Zondervan's new 5 volume encyclopedia is listed at $150.  Prepub in Logos format is $280(list price for the paper version).  This is Zondervan's choice and we can choose to buy this or we can choose one of the other multi volume encyclopedias that Logos offers at half this price instead.  SInce we've already paid for use of the intellectual property in the Zondervan titles, paying more for an upgrade in the electronic version than we would for a paper version doesn't sit well.  For me the EBC in electronic format is useful enough that I would purchase it at the prepub price (which is the same price in Prepub the CDB asks for the paper version and substantially below list)but I'm not sure about the other titles.  I'm don't believe I'm giving Zondervan a pass on this.

Until recently current books in Logos were a little more expensive than in some other formats (assuming those books were available in those other formats).  Recently I've noticed that prices for current books in other formats are the same as for  those books in Logos. With Logos we get a much better program, more current and scholarly resources (many bible programs load up on public domain titles), and a commitment from the owner of the company that we won't have to pay for books more than once.   I think Logos customers in general will pay for quality resources but we expect value for our money. 

As far as the future of publishing, at our local university and city library, I see more people using laptops than reading books (the library offers free WIFI to residents) and several local newspapers have gone out of business. 

Posts 8967
RIP
Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 14 2009 12:07 PM

MikeWaterhouse:

I think Logos customers in general will pay for quality resources but we expect value for our money. 

As far as the future of publishing, at our local university and city library, I see more people using laptops than reading books (the library offers free WIFI to residents) and several local newspapers have gone out of business. 

I think everyone agrees on two facts:
1) Zondervan has a lot of quality material. I am on my third hardcopy set of Pictorial Bible Encyclopedia. I even have it in Scholar's digital format, as well as EBC, NIDNTT, NIDOTTE, Fee, Mounce, and others. And
2) Logos is the most desirable Bible software.

I do not mind paying more to gain the enhanced usability of having a title in Logos format. I purchased the A. W. Tozer library in the "other guys" format for $32. I purchased the same library in Logos format for considerably more. It is worth it to me. But $2K for content I already have access to, albeit inferior!? We are not talking about $32 here, it is TWO THOUSAND! I cannot understand why Zondervan doesn't see a goodwill-saving gesture that profits them $395 is more preferable to alienating 80% of their previously faithful customer base who will walk away from any purchase. ($400 for a $4 disc. Huh?)

 1,000  users x $2000 = $2,000,000 (& a lot of untrusting buyers)
10,000  users x  $400 = $4,000,000 (& lots & lots of happy customers)

Once the customer base has been established in Logos any future Zondervan offerings will be considered by as many (or few) customers Zondervan has secured with their foray into Logos. "Let not a software company think more highly of itself than it ought.."

(btw: Our local paper offered $10 annual subscription, 365 days, I still turned them down.)

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 2709
Forum MVP
Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 14 2009 1:08 PM

Hi Matthew,

                      Well said & bravo to your comments above. I am glad someone else gets it! Whether Zondervan will, we just have to wait and see.

 

Ted

 

 

 

Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ

Posts 12
John A. English | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 17 2009 10:31 AM

Will Zondervan add the NIV Study Bible to the list of titles?  I didn't see it in the Logos Pre-pub list.

 

Posts 121
Scott Yip | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 21 2009 1:06 AM

Hi,

I saw the NIVAC NT is on the Prepub, http://www.logos.com/products/prepub/details/5459

I already own it in Pradis, has Logos issued any official guideline on the licenses transferring?

 

Scott

Posts 2725
Kevin A. Purcell | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 21 2009 7:02 AM

Scott, Yip:

Hi,

I saw the NIVAC NT is on the Prepub, http://www.logos.com/products/prepub/details/5459

I already own it in Pradis, has Logos issued any official guideline on the licenses transferring?

Scott

Not yet.

Posts 5566
Forum MVP
Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 21 2009 8:24 AM

JohnAEnglish:

Will Zondervan add the NIV Study Bible to the list of titles?  I didn't see it in the Logos Pre-pub list.

I hope so. I've been asking for this for years. I've even emailed Zondervan about it a few times, telling them that I have the NLT Study Bible, and just ordered the ESV Study Bible (trying to spark a bit of competitive urgency). Since I've put this in the suggestion newsgroups several times already, would you be willing to put it in the suggestion forum here?

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

Posts 274
Daniel Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 30 2009 6:00 AM

Any further updates on status?

Page 7 of 10 (194 items) « First ... < Previous 5 6 7 8 9 Next > ... Last » | RSS