Jehovah's Witnesses and Christadelphians

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Posts 232
AndyTheGreek | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 5 2010 6:07 AM | Locked

Dan

Agreed. It is hard to know where to draw the line :-) When I first responded to this thread I told myself 'you'll end up regretting it'. So, apologies if I've offended anyone - certainly not my intention.

Andy

Posts 654
David Bailey | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 5 2010 6:07 AM | Locked

As others have already said, our approach to proclaiming the truth of Christ needs to be bathed in prayers and with humility and love. For Milkman, I pray for opportunities to discuss the real issues of life with his friends, with boldness and conviction of the Holy Spirit.

Often times, the gospel of Jesus Christ is sugar coated because we are afraid to offend someone.  Well, remember, they are going to be offended when they stand before the Lord of hosts, where every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord!

IMHO, I think one reason why these other beliefs (especially Islam) have cropped up like weeds in America is because we have not been vocal and bold enough to proclaim the resurrection of our Lord. And for the record, I also speak for myself as a member of the guilty party.

Posts 2730
David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 5 2010 6:07 AM | Locked

Eric Ruhnow:

As to studying Scripture, the WTS teaches it's members that they will fall into apostasy if they ONLY read the Bible. Their teachings state that ONLY through the WTS teachings can you avoid doctrinal error. If this isn't "adding to Scripture" I don't know what is.

References please:  Where in the WTS does is so state that "they will fall into apostasy if they ONLY read the Bible"  Year or volume, issue or month and page number - Thanks

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 5 2010 6:31 AM | Locked

David Ames:

Eric Ruhnow:

As to studying Scripture, the WTS teaches it's members that they will fall into apostasy if they ONLY read the Bible. Their teachings state that ONLY through the WTS teachings can you avoid doctrinal error. If this isn't "adding to Scripture" I don't know what is.

References please:  Where in the WTS does is so state that "they will fall into apostasy if they ONLY read the Bible"  Year or volume, issue or month and page number - Thanks

I ran a search on "Watchtower NEAR Apostasy" with 8 results in 4 articles in 3 resources.  Here is one of them:

From very early in its history the organization has portrayed the Bible as worthless without Watchtower study aids to accompany it:

   … not only do we find that people cannot see the divine plan in studying the Bible by itself, but we see, also, that if anyone lays the SCRIPTURE STUDIES aside and goes to the Bible alone, although he has understood his Bible for ten years, our experience shows that within two years he goes into darkness. On the other hand, if he had merely read the SCRIPTURE STUDIES with their references, and had not read a page of the Bible, as such, he would be in the light at the end of the two years (The Watch Tower, 9/15/10, p. 298).

This explains why you can not simply quote from the Bible and reach the mind and heart of a fully indoctrinated Jehovah’s Witness. He or she does not dare look at the Bible alone, without the guidance of Watchtower publications. Doing so might lead to apostasy, which JWs redefine as the most deadly sin of turning away from God by rejecting “God’s organization.”


David A. Reed, How to Rescue Your Loved One from the Watchtower (electronic ed.; Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1997), 42.

 

 

 

 

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

Posts 654
David Bailey | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 5 2010 6:50 AM | Locked

Although not available in Logos, a nice review of the teachings of the JW is found in the late Walter Martin's book The Kingdom of the Cults, published by Bethany House.

Posts 221
James Thompson | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 5 2010 7:37 AM | Locked

Milkman:
I have two friends, one is a Jehovah's Witness (JW from now, no slight intened) and the other a Christadelphian. All three of us (they don't know eachother) seem to hit on the topic of the 'immortality of the soul.' I'm not quite sure how to broach a study with them. Is it better to begin by studying/researching prior to talking with each of them; 1) the image of God, 2) the creation of man, 3) death, 4) the soul, 5) the resurrection, 6,) heaven/hell or what?

I think the best approach is to come at it with a systematically. But I'm a bit stuck on a starting point for my reseach.

Any suggestions??

There is a book titled Immortality of the Soul by Oscar Cullmann I would suggest as a good starting point. I don't believe Logos publishes this work but if you're looking for a good starting point for this discussion this book will provide that for you. It might even challenge some of your own beliefs. I don't personally endorse every viewpoint in the book but it's a healthy, systematic exercise on the subject. And for a scholarly work it's a quick read!

Posts 3588
Milkman | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 5 2010 9:35 AM | Locked

Hey Scott,

Thanks for the reply. I have the book "How to Rescue..." and that seems like a good place to start. I don't have a dairy farm. I pick up my milk from a dairy in the city and deliver to my home service customers.

I've enjoyed the conversations in this forum and I agree it's time to lay this puppy to sleep. Lots of good suggestions and a little misunderstandings as well. Thanks again.

the milkman - "got milk?"

mm.

Posts 3588
Milkman | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 5 2010 10:13 AM | Locked
Hi David, I thought this might help and maybe, if you know better, could see if this does say that only reading the Bible without WT helps would lead to reverting back to a faith without being involved in the WT Organization. This article is from the WatchTower 1981 edition article entitled "The Way Of Escape" electronic edition 2007. It does seem to imply that only reading the Bible will teach you to believe like a Baptist, Mennonite, Anglican or any other Community of Faith that believes it follows the Word. I fully understand that if one chooses to become a Witness and remain a Witness, then it only seems logical that he/she would not only read the Bible/New World Translation, but also adhere to the way a Kingdom Hall "does business." It just seems like the WT has to put their own spin on things so that it's people believe so differently than an aweful lot of others. In serving Jehovah “shoulder to shoulder,” we need, as Zephaniah so often emphasizes, to cultivate the quality of meekness. When we make mistakes, as all imperfect humans do, let us be ready to acknowledge them, even as the “faithful and discreet slave,” made up of imperfect fleshly men, has had to make corrections. However, let us never be critical of the grand body of truth that Jehovah has built up among his united people over the past 100 years, and which, by correction and adjustment, has come to shine ever more brightly on “the path of the righteous ones.”—Prov. 4:18. 14 From time to time, there have arisen from among the ranks of Jehovah’s people those who, like the original Satan, have adopted an independent, faultfinding attitude. They do not want to serve “shoulder to shoulder” with the worldwide brotherhood. (Compare Ephesians 2:19-22.) Rather, they present a “stubborn shoulder” to Jehovah’s words. (Zech. 7:11, 12) Reviling the pattern of the “pure language” that Jehovah has so graciously taught his people over the past century, these haughty ones try to draw the “sheep” away from the one international “flock” that Jesus has gathered in the earth. (John 10:7-10, 16) They try to sow doubts and to separate unsuspecting ones from the bounteous “table” of spiritual food spread at the Kingdom Halls of Jehovah’s Witnesses, where truly there is ‘nothing lacking.’ (Ps. 23:1-6) They say that it is sufficient to read the Bible exclusively, either alone or in small groups at home. But, strangely, through such ‘Bible reading,’ they have reverted right back to the apostate doctrines that commentaries by Christendom’s clergy were teaching 100 years ago, and some have even returned to celebrating Christendom’s festivals again, such as the Roman Saturnalia of December 25! Jesus and his apostles warned against such lawless ones

mm.

Posts 3588
Milkman | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 5 2010 10:19 AM | Locked

hey dan,

How do you copy, using Snagit and paste into a forum?

mm.

Posts 3588
Milkman | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 5 2010 10:36 AM | Locked

Let me try this again.

 

mm.

Posts 3909
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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 5 2010 11:18 AM | Locked

Milkman:

hey dan,

How do you copy, using Snagit and paste into a forum?

if you are referring to the excerpt above, I just highlighted the text, right-clicked, and selected "copy."  I pasted it directly into my reply.  Then I went back to Logos, used the pulldown menu from the top left corner of that resource's panel, and selected "copy location as URL".  then I went back to my forum reply (still 'in progress'), selected the resource title, clicked on the "edit/insert link" symbol (the chain), and in the "link url" box, I pasted the URL link I got from the Logos resource, and clicked "insert."   That last step helps anyone with that resource in Logos to go straight to it.

As for copying screen captures, I use "Snipping Tool" that comes with Win 7.  I know a lot of poeple love Snagit, i just don't have it.

 

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 5 2010 11:21 AM | Locked

Milkman:
I don't have a dairy farm. I pick up my milk from a dairy in the city and deliver to my home service customers.

Cool!  We still have a (non-functional) metal box/door built into our 1950's era home for the milkman to put the milk bottles!

I spent my hs years as a dairy farm kid.  When I brought my college friends home, they weren't too happy when I woke them up at the crack of dawn to "meet the milkman" (the truck driver) who was a friend of mine . . . Sleep

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

Posts 1680
Jerry M | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 5 2010 11:56 AM | Locked

Dan DeVilder:
We still have a (non-functional) metal box/door built into our 1950's era home

We didn't have one as I was growing up and in the winter sometimes the milk would freeze and pop the top, if we didn't get to it in time.

"For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power"      Wiki Table of Contents

Posts 3588
Milkman | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 5 2010 12:01 PM | Locked

I've got one customer who has that little door. She's about 100 years old and leaves me little notes once and a while, then she'll call me and tell me the same thing the note had on it Smile

The house I grew up in had a door as well and we kids would climb through it all the time, pretty cool thing to do when your skinny. Not any more. Yep, it's a great job and since I/we own the business even better, however the guy I work for can be quite demanding sometimes, especially when he doesn't get enough shut eye.

Have a great day!

mm.

Posts 654
David Bailey | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 5 2010 12:05 PM | Locked

Milkman:
Hi David, I thought this might help and maybe, if you know better, could see if this does say that only reading the Bible without WT helps would lead to reverting back to a faith without being involved in the WT Organization.

I understand the article to mean that if you read just the Bible, it will lead you astray from the teachings of Charles Taze Russell, founder of JW and original publisher of The Watch Tower. It states that those who read the Bible would revert "right back to the apostate doctrines that commentaries by Christendom's clergy were teaching 100 years ago..."

According to JW, such "apostate doctrines" by those who are misled by the Bible include the belief in:

1. eternal torment, or hell.

2. the human soul as an eternal entity

3. Deity of Christ

4. Triune nature of God

5. Physical resurrection of Christ

6. Physical return of Christ

7. Atonement of Christ at the Cross

And many other beliefs.

 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 5 2010 12:46 PM | Locked

I would really appreciate it if this thread was killed. If a Jehovah's Witness or Christadelphian wishes to state what they believe in this thread, I would overlook the breach into theology. But I real think that a thread on saving them from the follies of their ways is inappropriate in this forum - regardless of the rules. Combined with the thread on praying for someone else's misfortune, there are currently threads I am ashamed to be associated with.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 19124
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 5 2010 1:13 PM | Locked

Jerry M:

Dan DeVilder:
We still have a (non-functional) metal box/door built into our 1950's era home

We didn't have one as I was growing up and in the winter sometimes the milk would freeze and pop the top, if we didn't get to it in time.

 

When I was growing up, we had a milkman who would come into our house and put the bottles of milk right into our fridge!

Posts 3588
Milkman | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 5 2010 1:26 PM | Locked

MJ. I started this and all I wanted to know was this:

In order to start a personal Bible study FOR MYSELF AND NOBODY ELSE on the topic of the immortal soul where should "I" begin to look. Never did I insinuate trying to convert another to what my theology is, my theology is 'ever changing growing.'

All I wanted from helpful brothers/sisters was a suggestion something like this:

"If I were you, I would begin my personal bible study by studying the topic of the Image of God and then see how that applies to the nature of man.... or research what Bavinck or Hodge or even Reymond and possibly your favorite theologian might say about this... or look at any class notes that you may have saved from Seminary or even your sermons that you have preached or Bible studies that you have led etc.................."

AND THEN, with my PERSONAL study completed I would have the appropriate background to THEN AND ONLY THEN begin to talk with some semblance of Biblical intelligence to my two friends.

I got some very helpful information from some guys of which I am appreciative. But regrettfully this has gone way out of sorts and maybe you could suggest the proper form for this to have been inniated in the first place.

mm.

Posts 3588
Milkman | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 5 2010 1:31 PM | Locked
We have a bunch of 'acreages' around our city and I used to do that when I was doing the "country run" I would go into the homes and either put the product in the fridge or leave it on the kitchen table. I would then be greeted with my money and sometimes a warm cup of javva. But the roads, especially during winter killed my truck and I got stuck a couple of times so I decided to sell that part of my route to another milkman. Now that all my customers are in the city, all I do is put my milk between the doors, on the door step or in coolers. When it gets to be 80-90 degrees or 40 below zero, the coolers come in very handy especially if I drop of the milk at 3 in the morning.

mm.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 5 2010 1:56 PM | Locked

Milkman:
In order to start a personal Bible study FOR MYSELF AND NOBODY ELSE on the topic of the immortal soul where should "I" begin to look. Never did I insinuate trying to convert another to what my theology is, my theology is 'ever changing growing.'

I'm sorry if it sounded as if I objected to the thread in total. You are absolutely correct that your initial request and some of the answers were appropriate.However, some of the posts crossed the propriety line - because the tone had remained civil, I didn't want to lock down the thread. However, I do think all posters (myself included) need to review their posts. Would the poster feel comfortable and welcomed by the post if they were JW or Christadelphian?

Again, I apologize if it sounded as if I was directing my comments to you.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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