Logos, is it too late to get a refund?
Hello everybody,
A little background: Since November of last year, I have spent ~$4000 at Logos.com. I essentially gave up actually using the product 6+ months ago because I found that whenever I attempted to use it, I would spend more time filing bug reports (most of which were never answered by Logos), dealing with inconsistencies in the interface, and attempting to use the in-application help to guide me (more often than not a fruitless endeavor) than actually getting beneficial Bible study. Because, and only because I read post after post from the Logos faithful who stated that they had long experience with Logos and that Logos would come through on Logos 4, I, out of wanting to help a nominally Christian organization out, decided to wait and see what happened. For my general Bible studies, I ended up using another, much cheaper, much more dependable PC bible study program.
Today, I downloaded and installed with much anticipation the 4.1-SR3 release. I was extremely hopeful to find a new and rejuvenated Logos 4, where the many, many performance problems, interface lags, etc. would be a thing of the distant past. Alas, today, I have been using it for several hours and once again, I find that I have spent far more time filing bug reports, typos, etc. than getting any real study done. I will summarize briefly what I've been writing up most of the afternoon:
Bug #1:
In the following screenshot, the text Isa 9:6 using "Read Aloud" is read aloud properly. The text Isa. 28:16 is incorrectly read aloud as “28 minutes and 16 seconds.”
Bug #2
I wanted to add a note to some text in a reference. My window layout started out as follows:
So, I right-clicked on the text of interest and selected ‘Add a note to...’ After which, my window layout was this:
When I closed the notes panel, my window layout had been switched to this:
As can be seen, once the Notes panel closed, the Owen window filled up the space I had between it and the Power Lookup window. Not what I wanted and not what should have happened.
Bug #3:
Typing up a note is abyssmal! To type "This means that our deliverance by God from our apostasy is a virtual and meritorious deliverance." into Notepad.exe took 18 seconds. To type the same into a Logos 4 Note (mind you I don't mean creating the note, opening the panel, etc., I mean *only* the time it took to type those words into the 'Content' field) was 1 minute and 20 seconds. Why? Because after every few letters were typed, Logos 4 would hang, I'd see a spinning blue circle, and then after a few seconds, the program would be responsive, only to have the cycle repeat every few letters.
Bug #4 (this is the one that broke the camel's back):
I spent quite a bit of time trying to figure out what John Owen was saying when he (according to the $400 Logos 4 edition of the Works of John Owen) stated the following:
"for "Israel shall be this impregnable rock, this precious foundation. In the defence of these truths did they conflict, in prayers, studies, travels, and writings, against the swarms of seducers by whom they were opposed."
In the context in which those words occurred, it really was quite impenatrable what it meant, and there was what appeared to be an orphaned quotation mark, but unfortunately, I've become accustomed to the works that Logos puts forth not having been properly vetted. Yes, I know that's a herculean task, but apparently that's the reason we often pay so much more for the Logos edition than we would from another Bible software publisher and more than we pay for the print book! In any case, I'm used to Owen being somewhat discursive in his presentation of his arguments, so I kept coming back to it, doing my best to figure out what he was saying within the context in which he was saying it. Meanwhile, I kept running into abbreviation after abbreviation which was not handled by Logos 4, again, it seems with how expensive the resources are, a much better job would be done on handling these abbreviations. Don't get me started on the state of the BDAG! After I had compiled a list of over 10 items which were not abbreviated, I decided to check my mainstay PC bible study program which has the works of Owen included to see how it had handled the text. Lo and behold, I found the following things:
1. The Scriptural references are written out in a very nice and formatted style, instead of simply being junked together with the non-Scriptural text as Logos 4 does.
2. The phrase I was having trouble with doesn't exist in the other Bible study program's version of Owen's work. More research revealed that Logos had simply omitted and spliced together the remaining text that spanned almost seven paragraphs or 1,026 words!
Needless to say, this leaves me extremely distrustful of the materials that Logos charges so much for. As another example of what I can only qualify as price-gouging based upon the paucity of rigor employed in vetting the works offered, the complete works of Jonathan Edwards is yours for the bargain price of $120. Yes, the printed edition can be had brand new for $50, but with Logos 4, you will get the added surprise of chance bowdlerization which will leave you puzzling over sentences never penned by Edwards himself until you validate what Logos sold you in another Bible study program!
Bug #5:
When hovering over the footnote 66 in the search pane I see one representation (which makes no sense for what I had searched on):
But when I actually open the resource and hover, I see another representation (which does fit what I was searching for):
Maybe Not Bugs:
These are not deal-breakers for me. The following are what I consider to be UI design issues. I know Logos 4 is for both Mac and PC, but on a PC it should follow PC semantics and on a Mac it should follow Mac semantics.
User Interface Anomaly #1:
It is very unintuitive when clicking on File->Notes, to not be able to either from within the Notes panel itself, or some sub-menu to File->Notes to not be able to see the various notes files that have already been created. (I know that to the right there is a hodge-podge of all sorts of different file types, but since various incongruous types are supported, there should be an organizational element to them.)
User Interface Anomaly #2:
If I select some text in a work, and right-click on it, there should be an option to start a new ‘Notes’ file. Instead, I only see (apparently) the most recently accessed Notes file. In the former case, I have to dismiss the right-click pop-up, then go up to File->Notes, type the name for the new note file, go back to the original work that I wanted to add the note to, right-click again, then select the newly created Notes file.
User Interface Anomaly #3:
In the Notes panel, when entering ‘Content’, clicking outside of the content box should commit what you’ve written, instead, it behaves as though it’s still waiting for more text. At the very least there should be a button or some such that implies “I’m done editing the content.”
I have never experienced software so poorly designed and implemented (even freeware or shareware programs) as Logos 4. From the moment it came out the gates, to the present day, the program is riddled with bugs, and instead of fixing them, they keep glopping on new features and introducing more. I'm sure many of you are quite happy with it. I feel that $4000 should reflect quality, not a quantity of bugs and poor customer service. It has been almost 1 full year since Logos 4 was released, and if this was a volunteer effort, I would have nothing to complain about. I should be able to rely upon the integrity of the works that cost so much. I should be able to rely on the program operating correctly and reliably. With Logos 4, I can't do either.
Thanks for reading ,
Matt
Specs:
Windows 7 x64
Quad Xeon 2.83 GHz x2
16GB RAM
Nvidia 285 GTX 1GB VRAM
Logos 4.1 Platinum, SR-3, indexed
Comments
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I agree with all 3 of your anomalies and would also say that Bugs 4 is a serious and disconcerting error, Bug 5 would be annoying--and wrong. Incidentally, the footnote that appears in your search result is actually from the very next paragraph after the fn. But I reproduced (as expected) the same result. You only see the content of fn 66 when you open the resource.
Bug #3 is not my experience. A little lag, yes, but not what you described by a long shot. Your system screams compared to mine, too. I don't use read aloud at all. (bug #1) but yeah, that should be fixed. And bug #2--I have experienced issues like that and related to it.
Every one of your points is valid, and some are critical issue for good study. (especially the Owen quote!) I can't comment on the refund. I know I don't feel the need to seek a refund, and even with those issues, I am still pretty geeked to have what I have with Logos--both in number of great resources and in functionality.
That said, your post is very helpful in its specificity and detail. I am not a techie, so I can't address that side of things. The only one I consider really serious is the Owen quote. I would like accurate info. But I have not run into that before, especially on that scale.I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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In general I would agree with what you have to say about the maturity of the product. I've only recently started making more use of Read Aloud, an haven't had the particular issue you mention, but that may be an issue in the resource tagging rather than the function itself, but whatever the cause its still a valid issue you raise.
Notes I have experienced timing issues but not to the degree, but I confess I don't use notes anymore, I use other options outside of Logos 4, because they suit my requirements better, but I still agree notes is not yet fully mature and agree with the points you make.
I agree Logos released the product early, but at the same time don't expect a product completely built from scratch to reach full maturity within its first year. I'm not though trying to negate the points you raise in making that statement. These are things that need improving and addressing in terms of bugs.
As for a refund you would need to speak to customer service.
All I can say is I have dealt with company a long time. I don't always and won't always agree with what they do and the timing of things they do and I won't talk them up as being 'God's' gift to Christians. But I think they are on the most part, on the right track, and are reliable and trustworthy, so I am here for the long haul. And the bits I really don't like, I don't let them stand in the way of the bits I really do like. Though I may make a strong statement about those bits I don't like.
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I have experienced bug #5 a lot, and it drives me crazy when I am trying to work through a lot of search results and find what I am looking for. It's not resource-specific, I see it in quite a few resources coming up in search results.
I wish I had the Owens resource, I do not - would love to investigate that one more. Maybe someone can shed some light on it?
No problems on performance here, but that's not everyone's experience. I agree with you on the UI anomalies.
I kinda wish Logos would really focus on bug fixes too. I know they are feeling pressured to get features in because it came out early with so many features missing; many were not pleased at the time, especially when the financial incentive to upgrade was going away, and Logos 3 really couldn't be replaced in anyone's mind, yet. I do love ver 4 though, warts and all, now that I have used it for about 10 months.
I just wish the bugs would get fixed, and there are still quite a few on these forums that have not been acknowledged/fixed yet.
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Matt,
First let me greet you in grace because I can hear see you're discontent and I want to encourage you a bit. [:)]
I'm not a logos employee, none of us MVP's are, but we know the company and I see in your message here that you've listened to us and others who have encouraged you to be patient. Thank you for that grace to us. Hopefully we can respond in a way that helps.
Second: if you're serious about a refund let me encourage you to contact first customer service about a refund (It sounds like you may already have?) And if necessary to email Bob Pritchett (bob at logos). Understand that you probably will not get an immediate answer from Bob in particular as he doubtless gets gazillions of emails a day. But he has made his email available for issues like this - Customer service is your first line of defense and generally speaking they know they have the freedom to do the right thing.
Observations:
I can't help at all with bugs 1 &2 because I seldom use read aloud and haven't seen it; nor do I close many windows in the course of a study - they just keep stacking up for me. (Not invalidating your conclusion - I just have nothing to offer here.)
Bug 3:
First off I wonder if you can tell me about your machine. It sounds like at least some of the performance issues may be related to you having a lower end machine - although I'll acknowledge that others with fast machines have hit the notes typing issue you discuss. Anyway my point here is that the specs Logos requires are a fairly recent, fairly beefy machine and I was wondering how yours compares. Also I'm certain I read that this is a reported issue in their database they're working on.Bug 4: hmm. [^o)]
Bug 5: Bizarre, it's actually giving you the next sentence instead of the content of the footnote. I can't say I've noticed that before - I'll have to pay attention on future searches.
As for the anomallies Those are all issues that I and others have asked for changes. From flyout menus to other UI enhancements.
In defense of Logos, right now the features being added are in large part being done to satisfy requests from users. Some of the features weren't even planned when L4 was sent to first beta, but with much feedback, Logos listened and they're being added (I think printing was like that - can someone help my memory?)
Thanks for writing Matt. Again I have a distinct feeling that your typical forumite or MVP isn't going to be able to provide much assistance. Again, I would encourage you to contact customer service - perhaps refer them to this thread. I've actually just finished praying that this will turn out well for you.Matt said:Thanks for reading
Tom
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
Matt,
First let me greet you in grace because I can hear see you're discontent and I want to encourage you a bit. [:)]
I'm not a logos employee, none of us MVP's are, but we know the company and I see in your message here that you've listened to us and others who have encouraged you to be patient. Thank you for that grace to us. Hopefully we can respond in a way that helps.
Second: if you're serious about a refund let me encourage you to contact first customer service about a refund (It sounds like you may already have?) And if necessary to email Bob Pritchett (bob at logos). Understand that you probably will not get an immediate answer from Bob in particular as he doubtless gets gazillions of emails a day. But he has made his email available for issues like this - Customer service is your first line of defense and generally speaking they know they have the freedom to do the right thing.
Observations:
I can't help at all with bugs 1 &2 because I seldom use read aloud and haven't seen it; nor do I close many windows in the course of a study - they just keep stacking up for me. (Not invalidating your conclusion - I just have nothing to offer here.)
Bug 3:
First off I wonder if you can tell me about your machine. It sounds like at least some of the performance issues may be related to you having a lower end machine - although I'll acknowledge that others with fast machines have hit the notes typing issue you discuss. Anyway my point here is that the specs Logos requires are a fairly recent, fairly beefy machine and I was wondering how yours compares. Also I'm certain I read that this is a reported issue in their database they're working on.Bug 4: hmm. [^o)]
Bug 5: Bizarre, it's actually giving you the next sentence instead of the content of the footnote. I can't say I've noticed that before - I'll have to pay attention on future searches.
As for the anomallies Those are all issues that I and others have asked for changes. From flyout menus to other UI enhancements.
In defense of Logos, right now the features being added are in large part being done to satisfy requests from users. Some of the features weren't even planned when L4 was sent to first beta, but with much feedback, Logos listened and they're being added (I think printing was like that - can someone help my memory?)
Thanks for writing Matt. Again I have a distinct feeling that your typical forumite or MVP isn't going to be able to provide much assistance. Again, I would encourage you to contact customer service - perhaps refer them to this thread. I've actually just finished praying that this will turn out well for you.Matt said:Thanks for reading
Tom
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Matt said:
Because, and only because I read post after post from the Logos faithful who stated that they had long experience with Logos and that Logos would come through on Logos 4, I, out of wanting to help a nominally Christian organization out, decided to wait and see what happened.
I almost refrained from responding because of this comment, but I guess the charitable thing to do is to chalk it up to frustration (and perhaps tiredness).
I understand having minor frustrations (that seem major at the time) when faced with the enormity of LOGOS capabilities. You mention 1] problems with "Read Aloud" which I believe is a Microsoft audio feature; 2] issues with missing text and also footnote issue in a specific (particular) resource and 3] problems with NOTES. But there are 100's of things which LOGOS CAN DO that you don't mention. I find this program most helpful in the study of BIBLE TEXTS. The original language tools are exceptional. The studies possible in the areas of morphology, syntax, diagrams of clauses, discourse markers, graphs, charts, visual filters, etc. are areas where this program really shines. [DId I mention the inter-linears?]
I don't know if you have exhausted the video tutorials, but there are tons of helpful ideas to be found there - and there is where you can see how many ways you can use what LOGOS already does do very well.
One purchase that was a huge help for me - and one that really highlighted the strengths of LOGOS - was the "Learn to use Biblical Greek and Hebrew with Logos bible Software" [found here: http://www.logos.com/products/details/5876 ]. What I learned there made Logos even MORE valuable to me. [I know, you're thinking - "he's suggesting I spend MORE money".]- especially for Bible study. I' m only saying that the Biblical tools in this program are (in my thinking) far ahead of the rest of the pack.
Maybe this is not what you needed to hear right now, but I hope it gives you something to consider.
Shalom.
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Well......I checked my hard copy of John Owen and found out Logos has left out two whole pages of text. It looks like their automatic scanner skipped two pages, the text ends on page 3 then jumps to the first word on page 6. I hope Logos text development can get this fixed pronto.
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Ron, thank you for your thoughts, and I am sorry my manner of expressing myself offended your sensibilities. I can say that when I started Logos 4.1-SR3 up today, I did not go 'looking' for these problems. I merely wanted to study and annotate John Owen, and I found myself running into bug, after bug, after bug. I did not state in my post that nothing in Logos 4 works, I merely stated that my experience doing something which should have been straightforward was really quite poor, and ultimately my experience underscores an endemic problem with Logos 4 as a whole, an opinion and an experience in which I am not alone.
Thanks,
Matt
Specs:
Windows 7 x64
Quad Xeon 2.83 GHz x2
16GB RAM
Nvidia 285 GTX 1GB VRAM
Logos 4.1 Platinum, SR-3, indexed0 -
Good grief Matt, were those specs in your sig earlier when I asked for them? I feel like such a dunce!
aaaaaaanyway. By the looks of those specs you're machine should be more than a match for Logos 4. I can't say the notes typing issue is related!
I'll just shut up and sit on my hands now. [:#]
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
Thomas, yes they were there, but considering the prolixity of my message, it's quite understandable that you'd miss them! In any case, I do appreciate your response and the responses of others as they were very constructive and not condemnatory. I really wanted things to work out between me and Logos 4 (which is why I kept buying the good deal packages), but based upon the lack of response from customer service over and over, dropped features which had really motivated my purchase in the first place, the bugginess in even extremely simple tasks a year after the initial release of the software, I just find it too exasperating to access my $4000 program/library and spend most of my time filing bug reports.
As I've always said in these forums: you and the others who serve in these forums and participate tirelessly in the betas should get the 'Porfolio' edition gratis from Logos, because without you folks, I feel quite confident that Logos 4 would have been Logos' swan song.
Thanks again,
Matt
Specs:
Windows 7 x64
Quad Xeon 2.83 GHz x2
16GB RAM
Nvidia 285 GTX 1GB VRAM
Logos 4.1 Platinum, SR-3, indexed0 -
Matt, I will simply say that I have the other program you named, and I have continued to upgrade it over the years. Why? I honestly do not know, but I can tell you from experience Logos is a far superior program. I have used Logos for 15 years, and my library has grown to 3,600 resources. The competitor's program will never match the capabilities or resources found in Logos. You will find bugs, typos and misprints in their program too. That said, I wish you the best in your walk with the Lord.
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I'm sorry you're unhappy with the product. You can call and request a refund anytime.
We're still working to improve Logos 4; as others have mentioned, we've felt a burden to get 'missing features' done first, but we're just about done there (PBB and SermonFile, excepted) and will be putting some more effort into performance and other minor annoyances.
Text-to-speech is a notoriously difficult problem. We use the operating system's built in support, and try to make it "smarter" by pre-processing the text. (Turning "Jn. 3:16" into "John 3, 16" before feeding it to the text engine.) Apparently we aren't handling this reference correctly, though I don't know why.
(We'll look into all the bugs mentioned in your email.)
#2 isn't a bug, it's performing as designed. (You may not agree with the design, of course, but it's doing what it's supposed to.) Our "panels and tiles" system isn't designed for any blank space. As a special concession to the standard "open two books side by side" behavior, it opens only the first book using half the space, leaving room for a second book next to it. Once you close that panel it follows the built-in logic to prevent "wholes" in the panel system. This can take getting used to after dealing with tiling windows, where we typically feel a compulsion to "clean up" extra windows. The new system makes it easier to just open the next resource you want, without forcing you to always be cleaning up.
#3 is a performance issue in the WPF rich text box. We're still trying to figure out how to speed this up, but don't have much hope other than faster machines. (I'm very surprised you're experiencing the problem with your specs.) This is probably the weakest performance area in WPF, but unfortunately it's an all-or-nothing scenario -- we're are locked in, and can't opt out of WPF for just this component. We'll keep looking for solutions, and keep pressuring Microsoft to optimize this scenario.
#4 is an error, and I've reported it to our text development team.
#5 looks like a bug, which I'm reporting to the development team.
I appreciate the feedback on #1-3 of UI issues, though I'd suggest that in some cases it's just a matter of getting used to way Logos does it. I don't think these are "right or wrong" issues, but we'll consider your feedback as we continue to streamline the UI.
-- Bob
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Matt the thing that keeps me motivated with Logos 4 is the team work of thoes here in the forums to help each other out and the remarkable speed that i've seen from Bob in the forum boards, blogs and emails.
just over 4hrs in responding to your post. WOW now thats taking ownership of issues and trying to provide a Good product to the customer..
Nathan Madison
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Matt,
I don't have anything to offer you other than a thank you for the gracious, Christian, patient way you've handled this frustrating situation.
As Bob said, a refund is offered and you'll be put right...and I hope that whatever you do settle on for your long term bible study software, it will suit you brother....
God bless,
bob
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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UI issue #2 regarding creating new notes - I've posted on this before and each time don't understand why so few see this as an issue.
I am reading a Bible passage and want to create a note to record my thoughts on that passage for future reference. It seems obvious that I would highlight the reference or some portion of the passage, right-click and select "Create New Note." Instead I must go through a convoluted process to open a new note and then go back to the passage, etc., as described in Matt's original post.
Is no one else bothered by this?
I appreciate Bob's quick reply but don't see how this is an issue of "just a matter of getting used to the way Logos does it." This is a significant annoyance.
If you agree, please say so. Thanks!
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Stephen,
I found another response by Bob to this one here: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/21086/158331.aspx#158331 FWIW.
Bob Pritchett said:We changed the way notes on right-click worked because of a general consensus in user interface design that "cascading fly-out menus" are a bad idea. (They take too much precision mouse movement, are too easy to "fall off of", etc.)
Plus there is a matching uservoice entry: http://logos.uservoice.com/forums/42823-logos-bible-software-4/suggestions/977039-improve-file-access-via-right-click-link-to-file-t
There is also already a uservoice suggestion underway for #1: http://logos.uservoice.com/forums/42823-logos-bible-software-4/suggestions/509845-organize-files-popup-by-file-type-alphabet-and-re?ref=title
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
I agree. Starting a new note for a passage is awkward and unintuitive. A right click should have this.
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Peace to you this day!
Am grateful to you, Bob, for your response. *smile*
To the forum, in general, I would be very surprised indeed if the right click re. notes wouldn't be streamlined to suit our needs as future improvements to a wonderful program keep on "coming down the pike"!
I do grant you, though, that patience -- while a virtue -- is seldom easy!
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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Stephen Julian said:
If you agree, please say so. Thanks!
How about if we don't agree [;)] Stephen, I think this may have more to do with study methodology more than anything else, one of the first things that I do when studying a section is to set up my note file for that section, personally I seldom create separate note files after that. With that said, my way is NOT more right than yours, is simply falls in line with the work flow that Logos is designed for. I can see a definitely see a case for your request, ideally the software should not break the "flow" of our studies.
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Stephen Julian said:
I appreciate Bob's quick reply but don't see how this is an issue of "just a matter of getting used to the way Logos does it."
It is a matter of perspective even if it is the Logos way. One could also wonder why the software did not let you add to an existing file that you have been working with; and Logos4 actually does! I find this very convenient because I set up my study first, whether it be creating/opening a note or a clipping and then add whatever is relevant without interruption.
I'm not setting aside your concern but just proposing another perspective. I'm not an avid Note taker but I do use clippings.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Terry Poperszky said:Stephen Julian said:
If you agree, please say so. Thanks!
How about if we don't agree
Stephen, I think this may have more to do with study methodology more than anything else, one of the first things that I do when studying a section is to set up my note file for that section, personally I seldom create separate note files after that. With that said, my way is NOT more right than yours, is simply falls in line with the work flow that Logos is designed for. I can see a definitely see a case for your request, ideally the software should not break the "flow" of our studies.Observations:
- Opening notes "this way" or "that way" is already in this thread shown to be a matter of taste, not right or wrong--regardless of our feelings. Kind of like choosing church carpet color, pews vs. chairs, etc. Just because we are ticked off by it doesn't mean we should unload or demand our way.
- that said, I have personally wished for the right click option, especially for clippings. Sometimes I realize I need to make a more narrowly themed clipping file than I realized--or I came across something that doesn't fit my current study, but I want to save for future study--and rightclicking a new file would be awesome. I have less need for that on the fly regarding note files. Yeah, I get annoyed when I can't do that . . . but I'll get over it. Just like my family not loading the dishwasher correctly. [:@][:P]
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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I agree!
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Stephen Julian said:
UI issue #2 regarding creating new notes - I've posted on this before and each time don't understand why so few see this as an issue.
I am reading a Bible passage and want to create a note to record my thoughts on that passage for future reference. It seems obvious that I would highlight the reference or some portion of the passage, right-click and select "Create New Note." Instead I must go through a convoluted process to open a new note and then go back to the passage, etc., as described in Matt's original post.
Is no one else bothered by this?
I appreciate Bob's quick reply but don't see how this is an issue of "just a matter of getting used to the way Logos does it." This is a significant annoyance.
If you agree, please say so. Thanks!
Yep, couldn't agree more.
I thought the whole point of context menus was to bring up a list of all possible options applicable in the current context.
I.e. if a section of text has been highlighted and I bring up a context menu then surely one of the applicable options is my desire to add/attach a note to this highlighted text.
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SimonM said:
I.e. if a section of text has been highlighted and I bring up a context menu then surely one of the applicable options is my desire to add/attach a note to this highlighted text.
I'm not sure I get the problem; if you right-click you can add a note to the highlighted text.
It seemed like the most likely scenario would be that you'd want to add a note to the note file you were working on, and that creating a new note file would be a very unusual behavior. Keeping "new note file" off the right click menu reduces clutter, mkaing the "98% case" more efficient, and avoids the undesirable (though not always avoidable) behavior of having the same operation appear in two different places in the UI.
If we're wrong -- and people are constantly creating new note files -- then maybe we need to revisit this. But our research indicated a lifetime use of 6 note files or less per user, making right-click seem like a bad place to host something you'll need just six times, compared to the number of right-click menu popups likely to be done overall.
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Bob Pritchett said:
If we're wrong -- and people are constantly creating new note files -- then maybe we need to revisit this. But our research indicated a lifetime use of 6 note files or less per user, making right-click seem like a bad place to host something you'll need just six times, compared to the number of right-click menu popups likely to be done overall.
I don't know about others, but I've been using note files differently since Logos 4. I create a new note file every time I start a study (along with a clippings file and a passage list usually). Then I can add links to all the associated user docs (notes, clippings, passages) in my favorites window under a common topic.
In addition to that, having many small note files is better for me because:
- I've been using note files for web clippings (since the clippings doc doesn't let me include non-logos content)
- performance seems to degrade with large note files
- it allows me to toggle note display on or off for specific topics instead of having all my notes on or off all the time
- I can more easily delete notes I don't want anymore
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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Bob Pritchett said:
If we're wrong -- and people are constantly creating new note files -- then maybe we need to revisit this. But our research indicated a lifetime use of 6 note files or less per user, making right-click seem like a bad place to host something you'll need just six times, compared to the number of right-click menu popups likely to be done overall.
I have been adding at least two new note files a week, and often four or five.
In spite of the frustrations of notes in Logos 4 (the display lag when typing is the worst at the moment) note files are my base for sermon and lesson prep. I do all my research in notes, then transfer the info to Word for my final product.
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Matt-
I am not going to be much help because, by God's grace, I have not experienced any of the problems that you have listed; and I am extremely grateful to the Lord that I have not. I have used many, many Bible software programs and none can hold a light to Logos. Of course, I am a Logos Ambassador, so call me a little biased but I thought that before I was an Ambassador, which is why I became one.
Just one thought, though, about the "hanging:" up on the notes: This is just a maybe: try turning your "use internet" to "no", it may be that it is hanging up because it is synching with the Logos server. A wonderful feature because you never have to worry about your books, notes, etc. being lost; however, a feature that I keep off uless I am updating because it makes my computer run a lilttle sluggish when it is on. I dont know if that will fix your problem, but it is a thought. God Bless!!
Michael
Pastor Michael Huffman, Th.A Th.B Th.M
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As far as the notes issue....
My concern with notes is not so much in recording the note, but in recalling the note at the correct time. I started another thread on this a couple of days ago (http://community.logos.com/forums/p/23964/178560.aspx)
It seems to me that there could be a better system then the "put a note in a file" system. One of the benefits of Logos is that it breaks down the barrier that exists with paper books and creates an environment that almost makes all the resources 1 huge resource. I'd rather have the feel of one huge note file for that one huge resource that excels at recalling data.
I recognize that its probably too late in L4 development for a concept like this. Maybe the paradigm shifts Logos asked us to make with L4 was too much as is and this would be too much of a jump. My system works well in my head but Bob has to try to get into many other heads.
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I have just started creating notes for different topics (atonement, incarnation, forgiveness, etc.). Since I don't necessarily know what topic of interest I may find in the course of my reading it would be very helpful to be able to create a new note file from the right-click menu. I also have a separate note file for each book of the Bible and have not always used the note recently for the book I'm reading so being able to get to more than 1 or 2 recent note files from the right-click menu would also be handy
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Bob Pritchett said:
But our research indicated a lifetime use of 6 note files or less per user,
Bob,
A couple of people have already responded about the number of note files and the rate they are creating them, but I would like for you to look at what is under the numbers that you are using.
As you have read over the years, the one spot that people complain the most about Logos software is the note taking function. The question that I would like you to pounder is "Why are people only creating 6 note files over the their lifetime? Is is that they only need six? Or is it because the note function in L3 and in L4 is sooooo bad that your customers have to use another software program like Evernote or OneNote?"
FYI(1)...I personally use four or five note files for each pericope. Each note file holds different data for the same pericope.
FYI(2)...The note function in L4 is one of three reasons why I still use L3.
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So glad to see some interest generated on this topic of note-taking.
Bob - thanks, as always, for responding. I don't take your interest or
involvement in these discussions lightly. Many CEOs never take the time
to do this.Four thoughts:
1)
Tom Collinge expresses my thoughts (a bit more strongly
than I would have worded them) about the number of notes people have. My
guess is that there were so few notes because the note-taking function still
needed to evolve and so we used other products.
Now that Logos is evolving, I’d love to keep my Bible study notes inside
of Logos rather than having to use two programs every time I study.2)
I do not create notes for large topical areas of study,
leave them open, and then add to them as I study. I tend to have thoughts
that I want to record as I read a particular scripture passage and rather than
seeing if my thought fits a pre-existing topic I create a new note linked to
the passage where I am currently reading.
So while I appreciate the ability of Logos 4 to handle larger note
files, that really isn’t an issue for me.3)
Because Logos does a great job of searching (I know
about and agree with the concerns with topical searching, but that aside) I don’t
have to worry about the number of notes I am creating. I can find my content easily at any time. My behavior has been influenced by my use of OneNote
over the past few years. I used to have
to organize all of my files and electronic materials carefully, but as searching
in many programs has improved, I have grown used to recording thoughts without
being compulsive about organization, knowing that I can find the material
easily at any time (that is now true of e-mail in Outlook, notes in OneNote,
user-generated material in Logos 4).4)
I don’t need fly-out menus with all of my notes listed –
I’d love it, but can live without it. I mainly
want a right-click option to add a new note.We make virtues of our preferences – I know that and
so am not asking others to use Logos as I do, not at all. I’m simply asking those who do use it as I do
to speak up so that right-click creation of new notes is added to the program.0 -
Terry Poperszky said:
ideally the software should not break the "flow" of our studies.
[Y]
And i cringe so badly when I here Bob say
Bob Pritchett said:it's just a matter of getting used to way
Logos does it.Particularly when it is followed in the next breath with:
Bob Pritchett said:I don't think these are "right or wrong"
issuesIf there is no right or wrong way, then why not implement these things that not major redesigns of the software, but simply giving someone the option to do something from the right click menu instead of the convoluted current methodology that has been decided for all users on their behalf - apparently by general concensus
Bob Pritchett said:We changed the way notes on right-click
worked because of a general consensus in user interface design that
"cascading fly-out menus" are a bad idea. (They take too much precision
mouse movement, are too easy to "fall off of", etc.)... but who is exactly is "General Consensus" ?
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tom collinge said:
I would like for you to look at what is under the numbers that you are using.
Tom's reasons echo mine.
"Notes" was the very first thing I abandoned in Libronix 3 and I see no point in Logos 4's version to hurry back.
As "someone" once said:
There are Lies; da--ed lies; and then there are statistics.
Oh well.
Regards, SteveF
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Stephen Julian said:
UI issue #2 regarding creating new notes - I've posted on this before and each time don't understand why so few see this as an issue.
I am reading a Bible passage and want to create a note to record my thoughts on that passage for future reference. It seems obvious that I would highlight the reference or some portion of the passage, right-click and select "Create New Note." Instead I must go through a convoluted process to open a new note and then go back to the passage, etc., as described in Matt's original post.
Is no one else bothered by this?
I appreciate Bob's quick reply but don't see how this is an issue of "just a matter of getting used to the way Logos does it." This is a significant annoyance.
If you agree, please say so. Thanks!
YES!!!
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Bob Pritchett said:
But our research indicated a lifetime use of 6 note files or less per user,
Research also apparently found that Printing wasn't needed...
What statistics don't tell us is the why of their existence... why a lifetime use of 6 note files or less per user.... is it because they were simply not using Note files in Libronix 1-3 because the functionality provided did not meet their needs and so they turned to other options ? Or is there some other reason ?
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Perhaps if a right click gave the option "create a new note file" rather than just something like "add a new note" it would be a reminder of what they are really doing to their file system.
"For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power"
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For me, the way Note Files work for opening, closing and creating is perfectly fine. To me, the far bigger issues are:
1) ability to attach a note to multiple passages (there is a work around but ...)
2) the ability to have tables inside of notes
3) the ability to search My Content without searching the entire library.
The last of these is the biggest time waster in my work flow.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
For me, the way Note Files work for opening, closing and creating is perfectly fine. To me, the far bigger issues are:
1) ability to attach a note to multiple passages (there is a work around but ...)
2) the ability to have tables inside of notes
3) the ability to search My Content without searching the entire library.
The last of these is the biggest time waster in my work flow.
[Y][Y][Y]
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MJ. Smith said:
3) the ability to search My Content without searching the entire library.
I'm tempted to say what else could be done without searching the entire library...
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Andrew McKenzie said:
Research also apparently found that Printing wasn't needed...
. . . and how nice it was added back in after many of us expressed our deep desire to have that capability. [:)]
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Dan DeVilder said:Andrew McKenzie said:
Research also apparently found that Printing wasn't needed...
. . . and how nice it was added back in after many of us expressed our deep desire to have that capability.
Its a shame they don't do that with other issues....
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Andrew McKenzie said:Bob Pritchett said:
But our research indicated a lifetime use of 6 note files or less per user,
Research also apparently found that Printing wasn't needed...
What statistics don't tell us is the why of their existence... why a lifetime use of 6 note files or less per user.... is it because they were simply not using Note files in Libronix 1-3 because the functionality provided did not meet their needs and so they turned to other options ? Or is there some other reason ?
Why to I get the feeling we have endowed statistics with "god" like status as if they can solve all our problems.
FACT: Statistics are just a tool for soliciting information. They will not provide intelligent answers, they are non-sentient. So if statistics indicate few people are printing or writing notes in Logos 3/4 then we have possibly flagged something noteworthy but they "why" and "therefore" questions still need to be asked and answered before we can make any solid conclusions from the data gathered.
So WHAT! The real question that begs to be asked is "why" why are so few notes being taken when there seems to be so much discussion about notes? In my case with Logos 3 for Mac I had hundreds of notes but due to a set of unfortunate circumstances lost the lot before I could import them into Logos 4 for Mac.Bob Pritchett said:But our research indicated a lifetime use of 6 note files or less per user,
;-) Studies have shown and statistics have proven the human species suffers a 100% mortality rate. The real question is "why".
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Even with all these little issues that heave been mentioned in this thread, you have to admit, LOGOS ROCKS! Thanks Bob and all your team for giving me software that is so useful.
Jarred
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SimonM said:Andrew McKenzie said:Bob Pritchett said:
But our research indicated a lifetime use of 6 note files or less per user,
Research also apparently found that Printing wasn't needed...
What statistics don't tell us is the why of their existence... why a lifetime use of 6 note files or less per user.... is it because they were simply not using Note files in Libronix 1-3 because the functionality provided did not meet their needs and so they turned to other options ? Or is there some other reason ?
Why to I get the feeling we have endowed statistics with "god" like status as if they can solve all our problems.
FACT: Statistics are just a tool for soliciting information. They will not provide intelligent answers, they are non-sentient. So if statistics indicate few people are printing or writing notes in Logos 3/4 then we have possibly flagged something noteworthy but they "why" and "therefore" questions still need to be asked and answered before we can make any solid conclusions from the data gathered.
So WHAT! The real question that begs to be asked is "why" why are so few notes being taken when there seems to be so much discussion about notes? In my case with Logos 3 for Mac I had hundreds of notes but due to a set of unfortunate circumstances lost the lot before I could import them into Logos 4 for Mac.Bob Pritchett said:But our research indicated a lifetime use of 6 note files or less per user,
;-) Studies have shown and statistics have proven the human species suffers a 100% mortality rate. The real question is "why".
You have both made valid counter points to Bob's stats. Valid, in the sense of offering a reasonable counterpoint. But seriously, do we know for sure that they have not done focus groups, or not asked the "why" questions? Do we know what percentage of people are clamoring for change in some of these specified areas? Do we have an accurate handle on how they have to budget their resources (people, technology etc) vis a vis the multiple layers of need for their company?
I see no problem with constantly bringing up needs that are not met, whether it be on the forums or uservoice. I see no problem with making sure Logos is hearing correctly. If Logos treats us badly, then they should be confronted with that.
They have not treated us badly. They may not have moved as fast in areas as we like at times. But, fact is, we have no clue about the inner machinations and corporate needs of Logos. We only see how they are not meeting what WE want. And that frustration within us sometimes translates in to condescension, short temperedness, sarcasm--how is that of Christ? It's not. Keep the pressure on, but do it with grace and patience.
Sometimes these threads take on an "us vs. them" or even class warfare (little guy vs. uncaring corporate biggie). Now the same is true for Logos: they must take care to listen to us--if for no other reason than their business will suffer if they are not addressing the (multifaceted myriad of) needs of their market. If Bob becomes belligerent in his response, or Dan tell us "too bad, so sad, you have to cancel pre-pubs, not my problem" then we also (with patience and grace) need to respond to them. Because in the end (whether or not you categorize Logos as a Christian company), these are our fellow brothers, and that is how we are called to deal with each other. It matters not if you have a Logos symbol, an MVP star, or a blank space--we all carry the Cross.
Please, let's temper our posts and responses. Take special care with this medium, too. I think at times it is possible for intimate friends to have knock down drag out fights, because we have a foundation of trust that transcends those things. Despite being in Christ, few of us are really friends, and so extra special care must be taken in our communication---so that we don't defame or injure one-another unnecessarily.
If any of you have ever done church work, you know how different factions in the congregation can have completely different perspectives on the same thing (message, worship, carpet color, announcement, youth sunday, whatever). And you know how passionately people feel about that ONE thing. You also know how sometimes those parties are not treated with respect because we get tired of hearing the "same ol' same ol'". If care is not taken, division and dismissal (of the other person) sets in. How different if at first we try to see their view point, and constantly work at explaining ours with aplomb and great patience.
Peace, brothers.
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Andrew McKenzie said:
What statistics don't tell us is the why of their existence... why a lifetime use of 6 note files or less per user.... is it because they were simply not using Note files in Libronix 1-3 because the functionality provided did not meet their needs and so they turned to other options ?
You hit the nail on the head for my reasons, Andrew.
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> is it because they were simply not using Note files in Libronix 1-3 because the functionality provided
> did not meet their needs and so they turned to other options ?That's why I don't use them.
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Dan DeVilder said:
You have both made valid counter points to Bob's stats. Valid, in the sense of offering a reasonable counterpoint. But seriously, do we know for sure that they have not done focus groups, or not asked the "why" questions? Do we know what percentage of people are clamoring for change in some of these specified areas? Do we have an accurate handle on how they have to budget their resources (people, technology etc) vis a vis the multiple layers of need for their company?
I see no problem with constantly bringing up needs that are not met, whether it be on the forums or uservoice. I see no problem with making sure Logos is hearing correctly. If Logos treats us badly, then they should be confronted with that.
They have not treated us badly. They may not have moved as fast in areas as we like at times. But, fact is, we have no clue about the inner machinations and corporate needs of Logos. We only see how they are not meeting what WE want. And that frustration within us sometimes translates in to condescension, short temperedness, sarcasm--how is that of Christ? It's not. Keep the pressure on, but do it with grace and patience.
Sometimes these threads take on an "us vs. them" or even class warfare (little guy vs. uncaring corporate biggie). Now the same is true for Logos: they must take care to listen to us--if for no other reason than their business will suffer if they are not addressing the (multifaceted myriad of) needs of their market. If Bob becomes belligerent in his response, or Dan tell us "too bad, so sad, you have to cancel pre-pubs, not my problem" then we also (with patience and grace) need to respond to them. Because in the end (whether or not you categorize Logos as a Christian company), these are our fellow brothers, and that is how we are called to deal with each other. It matters not if you have a Logos symbol, an MVP star, or a blank space--we all carry the Cross.
Please, let's temper our posts and responses. Take special care with this medium, too. I think at times it is possible for intimate friends to have knock down drag out fights, because we have a foundation of trust that transcends those things. Despite being in Christ, few of us are really friends, and so extra special care must be taken in our communication---so that we don't defame or injure one-another unnecessarily.
If any of you have ever done church work, you know how different factions in the congregation can have completely different perspectives on the same thing (message, worship, carpet color, announcement, youth sunday, whatever). And you know how passionately people feel about that ONE thing. You also know how sometimes those parties are not treated with respect because we get tired of hearing the "same ol' same ol'". If care is not taken, division and dismissal (of the other person) sets in. How different if at first we try to see their view point, and constantly work at explaining ours with aplomb and great patience.
Peace, brothers.
Well said Dan.
I'm all for suggestions...heck..I'd like my list of wants worked on first!...but sometimes I cringe at the wording used and directed at Logos...words I'm willing to be would never be used in a face to face meeting with Bob.
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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SimonM said:
So WHAT! The real question that begs to be asked is "why" why are so few notes being taken when there seems to be so much discussion about notes?Bob Pritchett said:But our research indicated a lifetime use of 6 note files or less per user,
Simon,
Just couldn't resist here. Bob was talking about note files, not notes. What he said (in other words) was that most users put their notes in no more than about 6 note files. Hence this is part of the justification for not putting a new note file option in the right click menu for selected text.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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SimonM said:
Why to I get the feeling we have endowed statistics with "god" like status as if they can solve all our problems.
I am sure Bob Pritchett does not allow statistics to have the final say in any decision. We both know if he did do that Logos would have gone bankrupt years ago. I was in Quality Control at General Motors in the 1990s. When our assembly plant implemented Statistical Process Control we won multiple JD Power awards and every other industry accolade. To ignore accurately gathered statistics is to fly blindly, un-necessarily. I think Bob is just offering a little peak into why he chose this direction (since not everyone recognizes Bob is a sentient being and rather adept at making GOOD business decisions.)
SimonM said:;-) Studies have shown and statistics have proven the human species suffers a 100% mortality rate. The real question is "why".
I will probably get spanked for going theological here but;
I think it is a good thing 100% of humans suffer mortality. Else, why in the Garden would God find it needful to remove Adam & Eve before they ate of the other tree and live forever in a fallen state? My "death" will only be the removal of this body of sin and the putting on of a new body, like unto the Lord's. (I will even have 2 feet to run with again! ~amputee, here.) But you are right. Asking "WHY?" something is so, is really where the smarts are required. And I think Bob Pritchett has a track record he can be proud of.Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Robert Pavich said:
face to face meeting
When you are face to face with someone you can see facial expression, body language, and inflections in our voice, none of which you can observe in forums, so more care needs to be taken in communication. ( And sometimes I'm downright carnal)
"For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power"
Wiki Table of Contents0
