Notes Files Suggestion/PLEA

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Posts 664
Jim | Forum Activity | Posted: Fri, Jul 3 2009 3:17 PM

I've had Logos almost since it was first available and use it regularly. I like the convenience of the notes files, but the implementation remains amateurish. Could you AT LEAST make these improvements:

1. Make it so a  note file can be split up into multiple files (export a portion of the tree) and allow a note file to be imported into another one.

2. Make the formatting actually work! (i.e. fonts actually change when you change them; links can be terminated, paragraph formatting really works.)

3. Allow note files to be exported into some common file format. Text file would be a good start, Word would be better.

4. Nice but not as critical: Make the indentation system to be more than just window dressing.

I know it may be a lot of work but why not make notes html files?

Just do something to show you care.

Have a great day,
jmac

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 3 2009 6:00 PM

JimMcDaniel:

I've had Logos almost since it was first available and use it regularly. I like the convenience of the notes files, but the implementation remains amateurish. Could you AT LEAST make these improvements:

1. Make it so a  note file can be split up into multiple files (export a portion of the tree) and allow a note file to be imported into another one.

2. Make the formatting actually work! (i.e. fonts actually change when you change them; links can be terminated, paragraph formatting really works.)

3. Allow note files to be exported into some common file format. Text file would be a good start, Word would be better.

4. Nice but not as critical: Make the indentation system to be more than just window dressing.

I know it may be a lot of work but why not make notes html files?

Just do something to show you care.

 

I hope Logos scraps the way they do notes, and they implement something that is more user friendly and works.  This (notes) is my biggest issue with the software.

I would like the notes to be searchable, added to the passage guide, be able connect a single note to more than one passage, add items like sound and video.

 

Posts 1706
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 4 2009 12:48 PM

Let me start by saying we ARE improving notes in the next release, and implementing many of the most commonly requested features.

I'd also like to better understand what you want to do with notes. Longtime newsgroup readers know that I am very reluctant to turn our notes feature into a full-featured word processor (because it feels like a slipperly slope to writing a full-featured word processor, which is a very big job and not our goal). 

I still (try) to think of notes as short, personal observations tied to a particular verse or passage. I think of notes as offering you the ability to create something akin to the notes in a study Bible, using your own content.

I understand why you'd want them to be searchable (they will be), and exportable, etc. But I don't get why you'd need strong indent/outlining features, multiple font support (beyond setting the default, and for Greek/Hebrew), paragraph formatting, etc. Aren't these things better suited to your word processor?

Or are users wanting to create larger documents than I envision, inside the notes system?

(BTW, our notes are stored in XML right now, and are also exportable. Create a Note File Summary and then use the Export feature, or just open the notefile in a text editor -- though that's a power-user feature for people comfortable with XML.)

-- Bob

 

Posts 2793
J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 4 2009 1:05 PM

Bob

I agree in that I am not wanting another word processor.  It would only end up being a poor version with a lot of bloat that would slow loading.  

I agree, multiple font support is not necessary (except for other languages)... but why bother supporting different styles of fonts?  That just seems silly for a note taking system.

I do, however, think a simple bullet or numbering list would be useful.  Sometimes when taking notes, it is nice to write down short statement that you will later amplify into a full fledged outline in a word processor.  Bullet items, are convenient I think.

finally, is the plan to include all this in the upgraded Mac version with a simultaneous Windows & Mac launch?

My Books in Logos & FREE Training

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 4 2009 1:17 PM

Bob Pritchett:

I still (try) to think of notes as short, personal observations tied to a particular verse or passage. I think of notes as offering you the ability to create something akin to the notes in a study Bible, using your own content.

I understand why you'd want them to be searchable (they will be), and exportable, etc. But I don't get why you'd need strong indent/outlining features, multiple font support (beyond setting the default, and for Greek/Hebrew), paragraph formatting, etc. Aren't these things better suited to your word processor?

Or are users wanting to create larger documents than I envision, inside the notes system?

(BTW, our notes are stored in XML right now, and are also exportable. Create a Note File Summary and then use the Export feature, or just open the notefile in a text editor -- though that's a power-user feature for people comfortable with XML.)

-- Bob

Bob, you know you're opening a can of worms here, by asking for what we want.

Notes are used in many ways by users. The two primary ways I use notes are to 1) help me remember stuff I discovered about a text that I may forget the next time I study it; 2) make little personal observations tied to a particular verse or text. The notes feature as currently implemented helps me do that second thing pretty well.

But it's more important to me to keep track of my study notes that go beyond simple personal observations. I want to remember how this NT passage is connected to an OT passage, how variations on noun and verb stems of a particular word are key to understanding this text, that author X made this interesting observation on this passage (include link), that there's a really cool sermon illustration that illuminates a key truth about this passage found in this resource (include link), that commentator X says this (include text/link?), and maybe: here are 5 reasons I differ with the translators' rendering of this passage.

I don't think you need to create a word processor. A simple interface for doing basic html-type coding would be enough. I'm looking at the top of the input interface for creating a post in this forum. It's enough for me (not that I need smilies!).

Thanks for listening!

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 4 2009 1:30 PM

Bob Pritchett:

Let me start by saying we ARE improving notes in the next release, and implementing many of the most commonly requested features.

I'd also like to better understand what you want to do with notes. Longtime newsgroup readers know that I am very reluctant to turn our notes feature into a full-featured word processor (because it feels like a slipperly slope to writing a full-featured word processor, which is a very big job and not our goal). 

I still (try) to think of notes as short, personal observations tied to a particular verse or passage. I think of notes as offering you the ability to create something akin to the notes in a study Bible, using your own content.

I understand why you'd want them to be searchable (they will be), and exportable, etc. But I don't get why you'd need strong indent/outlining features, multiple font support (beyond setting the default, and for Greek/Hebrew), paragraph formatting, etc. Aren't these things better suited to your word processor?

Or are users wanting to create larger documents than I envision, inside the notes system?

(BTW, our notes are stored in XML right now, and are also exportable. Create a Note File Summary and then use the Export feature, or just open the notefile in a text editor -- though that's a power-user feature for people comfortable with XML.)

-- Bob

 

I agree that notes need not be a full-featured word processor.  I do, however, expect a few things:

1. Ability to set a default font (which can be changed as needed)
2. "Sticky" formatting which is to say that when you set the formatting it STAYS SET.  I tire of navigating away from a note only to find on return that it is a different size or a different font from what I had set.
3. Ability to link to more than one passage. (This could be problematic if its attempting to open up the same book to two different passages -- perhaps this could be accomplished by opening a new instance of the resource.  This isn't one of the "big ticket" items since I can make an additional link to the second passage.
4. Finer granularity in linking to non-versified resources.  Sometimes I link to a passage and am taken to the beginning of a page only to find that the passage I wanted is at the bottom of the page.
5. Could something be done about the entry of Hebrew?  I find that if I am to enter Hebrew in a passage I need to anticipate any English that might be entered thereafter and pre-enter it before entering the Hebrew or it just doesn't work.
6. Searching is a BIG item.  I am referring to being able to search all of one's notes and not simply a currently open file.  Sometimes I remember something I noted previously, but don't remember precisely which note file it was in.
7. Inter-note linking.  Sometimes I want to reference another note in another note file.  I would prefer to not need to either cite the name of the note file and the note ID or to copy the contents of the note into the current entry.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 4 2009 1:34 PM

Joe Miller:

Bob

I agree in that I am not wanting another word processor.  It would only end up being a poor version with a lot of bloat that would slow loading.  

I agree, multiple font support is not necessary (except for other languages)... but why bother supporting different styles of fonts?  That just seems silly for a note taking system.

I do, however, think a simple bullet or numbering list would be useful.  Sometimes when taking notes, it is nice to write down short statement that you will later amplify into a full fledged outline in a word processor.  Bullet items, are convenient I think.

finally, is the plan to include all this in the upgraded Mac version with a simultaneous Windows & Mac launch?

It is already possible to bullet or number items in notes.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 150
Jim Dean | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 4 2009 8:21 PM

Thanks for asking, Bob.

In my mind, the Notes application should offer us capabilities that :

A. help us organize our thots ON THE FLY, as we study

IMO, to do a decent job of organization, it calls for some degree of outlining ... not just one bullet level.  It also would be enhanced by interlinking of the notes themselves.  Personally, I think that some easy way to change colors (text &/or background) also helps in this area.  Finally, very fast and easy cut/copy/paste/move either of selected text OR of outline sections (promote/demote, move up/down) are a great help.  Maybe a couple of compatible fonts, easily switchable, could help too, sort of like colors.  Finally, some crude means of creating multicolumn tables would be helpful for organization purposes - even if they are not "pretty"

B. make it easy to "link" to different resources by pointers, rather than just copy and paste

This should allow us to "shorthand" our notes ... paste in a link to a page or paragraph or sentence (ideally, a highlighted selection) which would show up in the notes themselves with a user-assignable simple label, but when HOVERED over, would open up a window a la Libronix keylinks, so that we could read it and even click on it to chase ITS links. 

A & B make a great team ... and could not be done in an external word processor.

C. let us complete the entire task of studying, or planning a lesson, without using TWO tools simultaneously

I agree that "pretty print" formatting should not be a part of this engine, nor should wordart or other graphics/publishing stuff like multiple columns, embedded pictures, etc.  That can all be set up in a formal WP or Pub or PPnt package later, However ... I DO NOT want to have to keep going back and forth between those engines WHILE I'm in research, review, & correlate mode.  I want to do all my "thinking" in the Notes engine ... then port the already-well-organized result into the prettyprint engine.

=============
Redeeming the time (Eph.5:16+Col.4:5) ...
Jim Dean

Posts 5573
Forum MVP
Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 4 2009 8:56 PM

JimDean:
I agree that "pretty print" formatting should not be a part of this engine, nor should wordart or other graphics/publishing stuff like multiple columns, embedded pictures, etc.

I agree with the comment about desktop publishing kinds of features -- except that it would be helpful at times to put in a GIF or JPEG of a map, or illustration of an ancient object (lute, lamp, sling, shield, etc.). If I could copy/paste a Bible Encyclopedia article and include its graphics, that would be pretty cool.

As a matter of fact you can do that in a limited way now -- at least I have by copy/pasting from a web site (just don't tell anybody).

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

Posts 49
Mike Hogue | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 4 2009 9:18 PM

George Somsel:
4. Finer granularity in linking to non-versified resources.  Sometimes I link to a passage and am taken to the beginning of a page only to find that the passage I wanted is at the bottom of the page.

 

I've really got to agree especially with this one -- I've seen several people teach lessons on an overhead projector straight from their logos notes.  They use the links to show their class their references.  This "finer granularity" is a pretty important feature, and would be a great enhancement.

Posts 22
Graceman | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 4 2009 9:22 PM

Bob,

I do all my notes etc in a word processor already so I try to keep my results there and my libronix docs as lean as possible. To me it seems to make more sense because I then can add from other sources outside what is available within Libronix resources with greater ease. The word processor has all kinds of options, fonts, colors and organizing features built into it. From It is also easier to print, send to multiple recipients and locations, etc.

So I get what you are saying about the current level of notes, it is fine for me, I'm happy as a lark and I don't see what some of this fuss is about, just my humble opinion.

Pastor Chris McFarland

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 5 2009 3:14 PM

 

 

Bob Pritchett:

 

Let me start by saying we ARE improving notes in the next release, and implementing many of the most commonly requested features.

I'd also like to better understand what you want to do with notes. Longtime newsgroup readers know that I am very reluctant to turn our notes feature into a full-featured word processor (because it feels like a slipperly slope to writing a full-featured word processor, which is a very big job and not our goal).

I still (try) to think of notes as short, personal observations tied to a particular verse or passage. I think of notes as offering you the ability to create something akin to the notes in a study Bible, using your own content.

I understand why you'd want them to be searchable (they will be), and exportable, etc. But I don't get why you'd need strong indent/outlining features, multiple font support (beyond setting the default, and for Greek/Hebrew), paragraph formatting, etc. Aren't these things better suited to your word processor?

Or are users wanting to create larger documents than I envision, inside the notes system?

(BTW, our notes are stored in XML right now, and are also exportable. Create a Note File Summary and then use the Export feature, or just open the notefile in a text editor -- though that's a power-user feature for people comfortable with XML.)

 -- Bob

I want to say THANK YOU!!!!! for improving the notes system.  I just checked, and all of my notes take up 30 Meg.  I have notes for every verse that is used in years A and B of the lectionary.  My notes range in length from one or two sentences to two or three pages in length.

I do all of my writing, coping, pasting, ect... in a word process, and then copy them to Libronix. 

I do not blame you in wanting to create a word processor, but why cannot you embed one?  OpenOffice gives away their office suite for free.  Why can't you embed their word processor into Libronix?  I realize that this is not as easy as it sounds, and there are issues like bugs, updates, and licenses will need to be worked out.  Still, I think the work is worth it.  It will give your users a good UI with all of the features that we have grown accustom to having (like spell checker), you will not have to keep updating the notes system, and Sun Microsystems will get some free advertisement for their software.

On top of the items that are listed in my previous note (searchable, added to the passage guide, be able connect a single note to more than one passage, add items like sound and video), I would like the note system to be faster.  When I add a note, I tend to have to wait a second or two before I can paste anything into the note.  I know there were other times that I had to wait for the program to do some work before I could do something, but I cannot remember them off the top of my head.

I have thought of another feature that I would like to see in the notes system, and that would be able to link to a document, like the ABD, from within the note.  This might be possible now, but I have not been able to figure it out.

Bob Pritchett:
Or are users wanting to create larger documents than I envision, inside the notes system?
 

I am going to say yes, we are using the note system way beyond what was first envision for this part of the program.

Thanks again for updating the notes

 

 

 

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 5 2009 3:43 PM

tom collinge:

I want to say THANK YOU!!!!! for improving the notes system.  I just checked, and all of my notes take up 30 Meg.  I have notes for every verse that is used in years A and B of the lectionary.  My notes range in length from one or two sentences to two or three pages in length.

 

I do all of my writing, coping, pasting, ect... in a word process, and then copy them to Libronix. 

I do not blame you in wanting to create a word processor, but why cannot you embed one?  OpenOffice gives away their office suite for free.  Why can't you embed their word processor into Libronix?  I realize that this is not as easy as it sounds, and there are issues like bugs, updates, and licenses will need to be worked out.  Still, I think the work is worth it.  It will give your users a good UI with all of the features that we have grown accustom to having (like spell checker), you will not have to keep updating the notes system, and Sun Microsystems will get some free advertisement for their software.

Since I got my new computer running Vista my old Microsoft Office won't work (or so I'm told -- I haven't tried it).  I have therefore been using Open Office until I get around to getting a new Microsoft Office.  Open Office does get the job done, but it's about as clunky as it is possible to be.  I'll be happy to be rid of it.

BTW:  My notes are 91.5 Mb.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 25856
Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 5 2009 7:06 PM

George Somsel:
Since I got my new computer running Vista my old Microsoft Office won't work (or so I'm told -- I haven't tried it). 

Hi George,

Office 2003 and 2007 work fine in Vista. Try installing an older version to see if it works! Be sure to apply the latest SP from http://office.microsoft.com/en-gb/downloads/default.aspx

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 5 2009 7:45 PM

Dave Hooton:

George Somsel:
Since I got my new computer running Vista my old Microsoft Office won't work (or so I'm told -- I haven't tried it). 

Hi George,

Office 2003 and 2007 work fine in Vista. Try installing an older version to see if it works! Be sure to apply the latest SP from http://office.microsoft.com/en-gb/downloads/default.aspx

My Microsoft Office is Office 2000 with Word updated to 2003.  Do you still think it might work?  What is "SP"?

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 25856
Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 6 2009 12:02 AM

George Somsel:
My Microsoft Office is Office 2000 with Word updated to 2003.  Do you still think it might work?  What is "SP"?

See http://support.microsoft.com/kb/932087

SP = Service Pack

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

Posts 9
Peter Covert | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 6 2009 4:24 AM

George Somsel:
Open Office does get the job done, but it's about as clunky as it is possible to be.  I'll be happy to be rid of it.

 

George, I am not a big fan of O.O., but it is better than our note system.

I think that I do not like O.O. is because I am not use to it.  I complained when Microsoft change the UI with MS Office 2007.  Now that I am use to 2007, I now complain about MS Office UI that came out before 2007.

So I am wondering if O.O. is clunky because you are use to it?

Posts 3707
Floyd Johnson | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 6 2009 7:43 AM

Bob Pritchett:

I'd also like to better understand what you want to do with notes. Longtime newsgroup readers know that I am very reluctant to turn our notes feature into a full-featured word processor (because it feels like a slipperly slope to writing a full-featured word processor, which is a very big job and not our goal).  I still (try) to think of notes as short, personal observations tied to a particular verse or passage. I think of notes as offering you the ability to create something akin to the notes in a study Bible, using your own content.

Bob:

This is the fourth time I have tried to send this note - but each time I finish, I try to add tags, press enter (without thinking) and poof, the message is gone.  So here goes again.

It would seem to me that notes should be akin to the Study Bible that you mentioned.  But they should also have some relationship to the kind of notes that I would make in my wide margin Bible.  In practice, since I do not use the current notes feature, what I do is copy the important document, in its entirety (Bible passage, book chapter or section, etc) into either OneNote or David Michael's TheJournal.  I then make notes to the side of the passage either from the keyboard (when using TheJournal) or by hand or keyboard (when using OneNote).  The kinds of entries that I make, make use of the following features:

  • Italics, boldface, and underline
  • colored fonts (black, red, green, and blue, at the very least)
  • serify and non-serif fonts (at least two of each)
  • ordered (alphabetic and numeric) and unordered lists
  • highlighting - both while making entries and after making entries
  • indentation - to show qouted material
  • links back to other LOGOS resources and to other linkable material (i.e. web pages, files, links embedded in other documents)
  • insert images or other objects (e.g. MS Excel documents) into the notes.
  • export to PDF (as well as the current HTML)
  • adding markups to the copied passage - though these are usually hand drawn, smilies would do some of the same thing

Since I do own a Tablet PC (and plan to get a replacement with Windows 7), I would love to have the ability to make hand written notes as well, but I expect that would be bit over the top.

As someone noted earlier, the kind of formatting included in the reply section of these forums would be about right.

Thank you for considering all the requests that have been mentioned.

Blessings,

Floyd

Blessings,
Floyd

Pastor-Patrick.blogspot.com

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 6 2009 7:56 AM

Peter Covert:

George Somsel:
Open Office does get the job done, but it's about as clunky as it is possible to be.  I'll be happy to be rid of it.

 

George, I am not a big fan of O.O., but it is better than our note system.

I think that I do not like O.O. is because I am not use to it.  I complained when Microsoft change the UI with MS Office 2007.  Now that I am use to 2007, I now complain about MS Office UI that came out before 2007.

So I am wondering if O.O. is clunky because you are use to it?

OO uses <alt-o, h> to change the font characteristics rather than <alt-o, f> which other programs use.  It uses <alt-o, a> to change the paragraph format rather than <alt-o, p>.  In other words, it changes all of the standard short-cut keys.  Not only that, it seems that it is intent that everything is to be in Times New Roman.  I haven't found a way to change the default font setting so I have to go into <alt-o, h> each time and reset the font to what I want.  If I quote something which has a number such as a passage from some Church Father, up pops a snippet to deal with bullets and numbering.  While I can make it do what I want, it's a pain in the posterior.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 9
Peter Covert | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 6 2009 8:29 AM

George Somsel:

Peter Covert:

George Somsel:
Open Office does get the job done, but it's about as clunky as it is possible to be.  I'll be happy to be rid of it.

 

George, I am not a big fan of O.O., but it is better than our note system.

I think that I do not like O.O. is because I am not use to it.  I complained when Microsoft change the UI with MS Office 2007.  Now that I am use to 2007, I now complain about MS Office UI that came out before 2007.

So I am wondering if O.O. is clunky because you are use to it?

 

OO uses <alt-o, h> to change the font characteristics rather than <alt-o, f> which other programs use.  It uses <alt-o, a> to change the paragraph format rather than <alt-o, p>.  In other words, it changes all of the standard short-cut keys.  Not only that, it seems that it is intent that everything is to be in Times New Roman.  I haven't found a way to change the default font setting so I have to go into <alt-o, h> each time and reset the font to what I want.  If I quote something which has a number such as a passage from some Church Father, up pops a snippet to deal with bullets and numbering.  While I can make it do what I want, it's a pain in the posterior.

 

Ouch! I hate it when a program does not use standard shortcuts.  Because I do not use many shortcuts (I do a lot of right clicks), I do not think this would bother me too much.  

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