Surely this isn't how the Table of Contents in TDNT is supposed to work?

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fgh | Forum Activity | Posted: Thu, Oct 28 2010 7:58 AM

Article selected before Table of Contents was opened:

Kind of takes a while to locate the right article down there at the bottom... When I check other resources, the relevant line generally seems to be about 30-40% down from the top, when you're in the middle of the book. In the TDNT it seems to be among the last 5; occasionally I even had to scroll a line or two to find it. Except just when I thought I had figured it out, when it turned up on the very top instead, just to make sure I didn't start trusting it to at least be relatively consistent... (NB To repeat, close the ToC, use the scrollbar to go somewhere completely different, open the ToC again, and look for that reference.)

Also, the highlighting, while slightly visible on this screenshot, is absolutely impossible to see on my screen, unless you already know it's there (which I didn't, not having used the Table of Contents before). The background is far too dark, and the highlighting far too light in comparison. In the screenshot on the Wiki the line isn't highlighted, but bold, and the background is white. That would be much better!

(Maybe there's a way for users to change this themselves, in which case only the default needs to be changed by Logos, but I haven't managed to find any, and didn't get any answers when I asked here earlier.)

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

Mac Pro OS 10.9.

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John Murphy | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 29 2010 3:47 AM

Well, if it's any consolation, I got the same results as you.  If there is any way to change the highlighting I don't know of it.  I suspect it will have to be done by Logos.  I imagine they will improve stuff like this as time goes by, but I'm guessing it's not yet a high priority.  You CAN send a note to suggest@logos.com requesting a change.

Posts 8893
fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 29 2010 12:50 PM

It's always nice to have an issue confirmed by someone, but a consolation... not really... Smile

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

Mac Pro OS 10.9.

Posts 3152
LogosEmployee
Thomas Ball | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 2 2012 9:01 AM

FGH,

I'm not 100% sure I completely understand the issue you are describing, but I'll take a stab at re-stating it. Let me know if I'm on base or not. 

What I am understanding, and again please clarify if I'm incorrect, is that when you select a word from the TOC, the word appears appears 30-40% down from the top of visible space in the book panel . If this is true, your screenshot does not seem to actually illustrate this behavior, nor was I able to reproduce it. There were times when I was selected a different form of the primary word, and it would display a very small distance lower than the very top. I wouldn't characterize this as being  30-40% down the visible panel however. 

Since your post, it seems we have lightened the background of the TOC. I noticed that when the word is initially selected we highlight it with a dark blue, and invert the color of the word to white. When focus is set elsewhere the background color of the word changes to the grey color. The contrast seems to be better, and makes which word selected more clear. 

 

Posts 8893
fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 8 2012 2:17 PM

Tommy Ball:
What I am understanding, and again please clarify if I'm incorrect, is that when you select a word from the TOC, the word appears appears 30-40% down from the top of visible space in the book panel .

I think you managed to get just about every detail of that wrong. Smile

  • You're starting from the TOC. I'm starting from the text.
  • You're then looking at the text. I'm then looking at the TOC.
  • You're assuming the issue is that the word is 30-40% down. My actual issue is that the word is NOT 30-40% down. It's at the very bottom, or below the screen, or occasionally at the top. Anywhere BUT the 30-40% down where it should be.

fgh:
To repeat, close the ToC, use the scrollbar to go somewhere completely different, open the ToC again, and look for that reference.

Tommy Ball:
Since your post, it seems we have lightened the background of the TOC.

That seems possible. A look like that on the second screenshot would still be much more legible, though. Does it still look like that on Windows?

Tommy Ball:
I noticed that when the word is initially selected we highlight it with a dark blue, and invert the color of the word to white.

No help, since that only shows if you've already found it and clicked on it. My problem is finding it.

 

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

Mac Pro OS 10.9.

Posts 9946
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 8 2012 2:31 PM

I see no particular problem here.  What did you expect?

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 8893
fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 8 2012 2:42 PM

George Somsel:
What did you expect?

To be able to find the entry in the TOC...

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

Mac Pro OS 10.9.

Posts 9946
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 8 2012 2:46 PM

fgh:

George Somsel:
What did you expect?

To be able to find the entry in the TOC...

It's there—I saw it.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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RIP
Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 8 2012 5:48 PM

George Somsel:

fgh:

George Somsel:
What did you expect?

To be able to find the entry in the TOC...

 

It's there—I saw it.

Peace to all!            *smile*

                 Curiosity made me try this also.  Along with George (Neither of us uses Mac's!) I find to access the word through the TOC is simplicity itself.

However, what I find quite strange is you, Tommy Ball!  You chose to re-open a thread that's 9 months old when I would have thought you might as well let the  proverbial "sleeping dogs lie."

                 Also, I'm quite impressed (I think!) re. your post count.  You have almost 1,350 posts in a relatively short time!    I am impressed and amazed at your energy to help people with problems, even to the extent of "taking an item" offline for special attention and proper fixation and handling of a problem!  You seem to deserve a "Well Done!"

                                Unless that is the terms of reference and responsibility that you have received from Logos.  Is this a new era where Logos is concerned enough about those having difficulties to assign one of its employees to a special caring function???           In the past, although some very notable posts did come from Logos staff on various levels, mostly it was left up to the Logos Community and especially the MVP's to provide help and guidance when some one(s) were having difficulties.

              Is this a new policy?                       Well, whatever!        I do indeed wish you Incredible Joy in the Lord, Tommy!  God bless you and your loved ones!

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

Posts 8893
fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 9 2012 5:41 AM

Milford Charles Murray:
However, what I find quite strange is you, Tommy Ball!  You chose to re-open a thread that's 9 months old

Not strange at all, since I linked to it in another thread about the TDNT, and asked them to look at this issue at the same time. (And it's not 9 months old, it's nearly 2 years old.)

Milford Charles Murray:
when I would have thought you might as well let the  proverbial "sleeping dogs lie."

I have dozens upon dozens of old bug reports -- most of them far more important than this one -- that Logos has never bothered to either acknowledge or fix, and you're telling them they should continue to ignore them???!!!???

Milford Charles Murray:
I find to access the word through the TOC is simplicity itself.

Again, I'm NOT trying to access the word through the TOC, I'm trying to locate the already open article in the TOC.

Milford Charles Murray:
Neither of us uses Mac's!

Exactly! So the two of you may see something completely different than I do. If you want to be helpful, why don't you instead answer the question I put to PC users: Does the Windows version still look like in the second screenshot, bold on white instead of grey on blue?

George Somsel:

It's there—I saw it.

So do I, but not with one glance like I should be able to, but only after looking up and down and really searching for it, and, like I said, sometimes only after scrolling to make more lines visible.

However (and this is for Tommy/Logos), when I started this thread it seemed like a TDNT, or a TDNT on Mac, issue. When I revived it, it still seemed that way. But yesterday, when I investigated another issue in the Abridged TDNT for another thread, and then in other dictionaries, I found that it seems to have spread, so I guess it's not a resource issue after all. It used to be that when I opened a TOC (other than the TDNT), it looked something like this:

I e it opened with the scrollbar in such a position that the highlighted article can be located in a split second. Now suddenly pretty much every resource with a large TOC (naturally, a resource with only a few headings can't have this issue) seem to behave like the TDNT in the OP: the highlighted article is either at the very bottom or at the very top, and it takes a deliberate effort to find it (especially with my old eyes). Or it's off the screen altogether, in which case you also have to scroll to find it. 

Although the contrast between the gray and the blue seems to be slightly better than when I first wrote, I really need to see that contrast both above and below the highlight in order to distinguish it without effort. At the top or bottom I can only see it on one side, and then I don't really see it at all. It fades away into the contrast between the TOC and the surrounding. Plus it's a shorter way for the eyes, and therefore faster, to find something a bit above the middle, than to have to look all the way up and down to find it. Plus it's more likely that the next article I want can be clicked without scrolling. With the highlight at the bottom it's almost certain that the next thing I want is below the screen.

 

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

Mac Pro OS 10.9.

Posts 9946
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 9 2012 11:24 AM

fgh:

Milford Charles Murray:
I find to access the word through the TOC is simplicity itself.

Again, I'm NOT trying to access the word through the TOC, I'm trying to locate the already open article in the TOC.

It sounds as though you're going at it ... backwards.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 5613
Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 9 2012 12:31 PM

fgh:
Exactly! So the two of you may see something completely different than I do. If you want to be helpful, why don't you instead answer the question I put to PC users: Does the Windows version still look like in the second screenshot, bold on white instead of grey on blue?

Yes the PC uses bold to highlight the current TOC entry:

Wiki Links: Enabling Logging / Detailed Search Help - MacBook Pro (2014), ThinkPad E570

Posts 8893
fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 9 2012 12:49 PM

Todd Phillips:
Yes the PC uses bold to highlight the current TOC entry:

Thank you! No wonder then that George and Milford find it so much easier to see!

Yet another parity issue...

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

Mac Pro OS 10.9.

Posts 3152
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Thomas Ball | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 10 2012 9:37 AM

I'm sorry my response has been so delayed. I've been busy with other duties, and hashing what the issues are at work here which has proved troublesome for me. I am going to look more into this. From what I've observed, however, and this is just my observation, not the official "this is how it works". 

1. I've witnessed the TOC contrast between background and selected word, when focus is in the book and NOT the TOC, to be different on different machines. I'm not sure if this is a monitor issue or not.

2. When dragging the scroll bar with the mouse radically up or down, the word that the text is at will always be displayed at the extreme up or down. 

3. When watching the TOC and scrolling through the TDNT when the word the text talks about at the top seems to inconsistantly display more or less of the section above (meaning the main word, and any subcategories). 

 

I'll reply to this thread when I have more information.

 

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