New Prepub Request - Logos for Linux

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Posts 50
David J. Ring, Jr. | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 27 2009 11:31 PM

Bob Pritchett:

That's a great idea, and I'd do it if I thought there was even remotely enough interest.***

-- Bob

Bob,

Why not try a pre-pub announcement for a small Linux Logos set of books at a price of $200?

You already said you'd do it if there was enough interest.

This is a chance to do a real market survey - it a necessary part for any intelligent business plan.

It might very well be another source of revenue for Logos / Libronix.

But without trying to fly such a pre-pub, you'll really never know because few people read this forum compared to those who receive your email announcements o pre-pubs.

I've bought a few of the pre-pubs myself, and I'd like to buy this.

Be well,

David

Posts 26021
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 28 2009 12:05 AM

Bob Pritchett:
D) I know we're going to let people access (most of) their Logos content via the web in the future.

In this context, it would be well worth a reasonable fee to have access to the Biblical scholarship on subscription journal sites.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 50
David J. Ring, Jr. | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 28 2009 3:30 AM

MJ Smith,

That's a wonderful idea.   That's one of the points of a "sub thread" I introduced in this discussion - the revolultionary change in publishing - it's happening as we speak with the newspapers.  I want decent, honest, balanced media that's searching for the truth - and willing to bring me all the facts.  I'll pay for it.  I live in a town where the better of two newspapers doesn't confine its editorial position to the editorial page, but it creeps in and constantly slants the reporting, the other doesn't meet my needs - so my needs go unfulfilled.  There is a distant paper that doesn't circulate here (who's circulation is growing by leaps and bounds) that I cannot get except by mail, and still it doesn't cover the local area.

This is part of the information revolution - it involves all types of media and how we access it.  If I have a budget of $XXXX a year I'd rather pay vendors of information premium prices rather than operating systems.  I have Linux and it runs rings around Windows 7 Release Candidate - even though Win7 is quite stable -at least with minimal programs installed.  Unfortunately Windows OS still allows vendors of software modification abilities to change the DLL files which often conflict with other programs, slowing down the computer, or even crashing it.  With Linux this doesn't happen, nor does Linux suffer fragmentation hard drive problems because the ext3 file system was built to avoid that problem.  Plus I get access to thousands of programs that do what I want, and if I want to modify them for my use, I can.

The focus is going to be on content and how we access it.  If LOGOS can produce an engine (perhaps in perl, ruby or java) that will run platform independent, they win.  If they can allow me to buy content over the Internet and open it efficiently with my PDA, cellphone, desktop, laptop - or even a reading appliance of some type, they'll be the winner.  Content will be cloud based and available for purchase.  The engines that perform actions on the content will be in the reader.

Thanks MJ,

I really hope Bob is still reading this - there are some excellent ideas worthy of his consideration - and hopefully with some market  research he will continue to lead the way in electronic books and expand it (hopefully) to be the format of choice for all electronic media - or at least produce a reader that will handle all formats - and the market will see how much better his format is.

A platform independent program to process the media on the reader (computer, pda, cellphone) would be perfect - but make sure we have a Logos "buy it here" button.

Be well,

DR

 

Posts 38
jcc | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 28 2009 7:06 PM
Here is an interesting statistic: http://2dboy.com/2009/10/26/pay-what-you-want-birthday-sale-wrap-up/ The number of Linux users are about the same as the MAC users AND they are willing to pay more.
Posts 84
Nigel Cunningham | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 28 2009 8:11 PM

Hi Bob.

In response to your points...

A) Do you count me as a Windows user at the moment in your statistics? I suspect you would, because I'm using Vista so I can run Dragon Naturally Speaking and Logos. In actual fact, though, they're running under Linux via VMware. Go and take a look at my licenses (nandmcunningham@yahoo.com). Every title that's been purchased since 2001 has been purchased for use under Linux, using Win4Lin or (more recently) VMware. You're making money from Linux users today. Your statistics are just not showing you the truth, and we're working around the lack.

B) Yeah, not that many LOC :) (I've worked in software development). But please, give the prepub a try. Even if you put a nice high price on it to just get the people who are really serious and say clearly that you're just 'Gathering Interest' and won't necessarily produce it, even if it gets to 100%. Or you could do a Community Pricing one! :)

C) As far as Wine goes, it doesn't work. I've tried to get it to install (recently), without success. Pointers would be appreciated.

D) Web only works if your internet connection is fast and reliable... and if Logos' servers are reliable.

Posts 5242
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 28 2009 9:51 PM

James W Bennett:
Pre-pub is set to gather monetary interest in a product and let Logos know when there is enough potential capital to make the project viable. Logos does not charge for the Libronix software. They only charge for the books.

 

That is not entirely true I am a mac user and logos charges all mac users for their engine. It could work bu the problem is one of numbers, although since the macintosh is a unix kernel perhaps the mac code could be ported more easily. But as has been posted here Linux users can run VMware and windows under it. I don;t call it an ideal solution but unless linux users are willing to pay like mac users have I wouldn't expect to see a LInux version for a few years, it has taken over 10 years to convince Logos to ma one for us. I am not saying they shouldn't do one but just want to say it could take a while.

 

 

Posts 50
David J. Ring, Jr. | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 28 2009 11:18 PM

Note:  I sent Bob a CC: of the submission here by direct email as it seemed that he hadn't been able to read this thread.  I made my best pitch concerning this, and he (in the email below) gave me his best answer.  I'm sharing it with the other readers of this thread.

Most often the first few exchanges - or even just the first message carry most of the importance of the discussion.

I know (and hope) that he is busy producing his continued excellent product, and I thank him for the time and thought he has given to this.

Best wishes,

David Ring

 

from Bob Pritchett <-------@logos.com>

to David Ring <------@arrl.net>

date Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 7:37 PM

subject RE: Bob Bob Bob - Good Morning - Bob Bob Bob


Sent at 7:37 PM (6 hours ago)  


I appreciate your enthusiasm, but based on our Mac porting experience, we're looking at costs between half and a million dollars to port to Linux. (Our application is very large, with millions of lines of code.)


At $150 per copy, we'd need to sell between 3 and 6 thousand copies. Moreover, we'd have to front the half million or more before we finished and were able to collect the sales.


It's possible that it'll be easier to do this once we finish our next generation Mac application, but we're still working on that.


It's also a massive distraction. We'd need to hire Linux developers (which we've never done), and we'd have to buy new equipment, etc. We'd have to hire and train customer service reps on Linux. (It's easy to find call center staff with Windows or Mac experience. Linux tends to be used by technical people with technical jobs, not customer service.)


And then this would have to be the single best selling product in our history (unlikely), and LInux users -- people who self identify as fans of "free software" -- would have to pay $150 to get it. If we made it free, like everyone would expect (the way our Windows engine is free), we'd have to sell MORE copies so we could pay book royalties and cover development costs.


Sure, we could put it on pre-pub. We could put building a rocket ship on pre-pub to. As soon as we get pre-orders for $500 million we can start building the rocket. (I'm not being ridiculous -- you probably can build a private rocket for $500 million.) The problem is, it's unlikely we have or can get enough customers to make that work, and it would be a distraction in the meantime.


At some point, if Linux continues to gain share on the desktop, we WILL survey our users on this, just as we did with the Mac. But at this point it seems like a waste of time.


(I'd like to point out that the Mac has a number of Bible software packages, proving there's a paying market. There is no paying market for Linux Bible software right now that I can tell, and, in fact, the free projects don't seem to get much help.)


Sorry!


-- Bob

 

Posts 84
Nigel Cunningham | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 29 2009 3:37 AM

Hey Bob.

The Linux projects don't get much love because you guys have such a vastly superior product. We go through the pain of buying Windows licenses and using VMware or whatever because we love YOUR product! We just want to give you the money, instead of Bill!

(Yes, I'd happily pay $AU300 for a Linux version if I knew I wasn't going to be buying future releases of Windows and VMware).

Posts 2689
DominicM | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 29 2009 4:09 AM

Look Guys, I know you're passionate about this but Bob has give a logical reasoned current company position on this (which is far more than he needed to - he could have just said NO)

Things change like they did with producing the Mac version, he  hasn't said never, he's saying not at present, there is always hope, if Linux use rises significantly I am sure Bob will reassess the product viability...

I am sorry to say this thread saddens me as you keep on going on about it,  forgive me for saying it but you're now tantamount to harassing Bob as I read the forum.

Bob I am also a linux user myself, but fully respect your decision, painful as it is, come on guys respect his decision, and if you feel its wrong, pray God changes his mind. 

 

Never Deprive Anyone of Hope.. It Might Be ALL They Have

Posts 50
David J. Ring, Jr. | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 29 2009 8:21 AM

DominicM:

Look Guys, I know you're passionate about this but Bob has give a logical reasoned current company position on this (which is far more than he needed to - he could have just said NO)

Things change like they did with producing the Mac version, he  hasn't said never, he's saying not at present, there is always hope, if Linux use rises significantly I am sure Bob will reassess the product viability...

I am sorry to say this thread saddens me as you keep on going on about it,  forgive me for saying it but you're now tantamount to harassing Bob as I read the forum.

Bob I am also a linux user myself, but fully respect your decision, painful as it is, come on guys respect his decision, and if you feel its wrong, pray God changes his mind.

Dominic,

The comments I have seen here are all praising Logos, and to be fair, any messages about this were in the sense of making sure that Bob understood what he could be missing.  I am fully satisfied with his later email, he fully explains his reasoning, and why.  I wasn't satisfied before that because I thought he somehow misunderstood the problem.  I'm totally satisfied that he understands now and his email shows it.

Again, it was plain to me that others thought this too:  Perhaps he though that Linux users - given that there are over 5,000 available programs - somehow would not pay for an excellent program should it be offered.  Until his last answer - which he gave me privately and not through this forum (but which I posted) - I wasn't sure that he understood that Linux users are very enthusiastic - and the enthusiasm is mostly because Linux is an excellent system, with lots of available programs but that they are also people who would pay good money for excellence.  It is a very common misunderstanding, but Bob understands that we would gladly pay for excellence - which Logos offers, but it is just that he believes his companies resources would be best spent in other areas and that it would be difficult to find customer care people who understood the many varieties of Linux - a valid point as Debian is slightly different from even Ubuntu which is based on Debian!  It isn't an impossible problem, but it adds to the cost of producing such a program.

Other posts have kindly offered suggestions which I believe were offered in a helpful manner and most certainly in a kind manner, for improvements.

I'm absolutely certain that Mr. P takes these suggestions gladly and is thankful for them.  That's the type of man he is, of that I'm certain.

Best wishes,

DR

David Ring

-30-

Posts 38
jcc | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 29 2009 11:03 AM

It seems like the problem is that they are not writing code that is very cross-platform independent.  As this is observed by the current version of Logos relying so much on the MS libraries and tie into IE.  In fact, if they write code that was not so Microsoft dependent, libronix will probably would have worked fine in WINE and would not have cost them so much money to port it into the MAC platform.  And it's not just a matter of producing a linux version neither.  it would be ideal if they have portable code so that it can be ported to various mobile platforms as those are becoming more popular now.  Their web based solution seems to be a good step in that direction, however.  I hope that they can take some people (maybe people who posted in this thread) who are not so Windows and MAC centric to give them some feedback on what direction they can go given their resources with regard to their web based solution.

 

 

But Bob's got a point, I think if we can go over and convince Bibleworks or Accordance to produce a linux version, Logos will probably take the linux option more seriously.  But right now, I don't think we can convince any of them to produce a linux version.  Having said that, I'd be willing to donate more than $150 for the cause.  (And we really have to say "donate" here, because that's more of the linux mentality--they are more than willing to donate than Mac/Win users to contribute to the spread the usage of linux--whether they want free software or not.

Posts 2774
J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 29 2009 12:04 PM

jcc:
In fact, if they write code that was not so Microsoft dependent, libronix will probably would have worked fine in WINE and would not have cost them so much money to port it into the MAC platform. 
The Mac software was not/is not being "ported"  from the Windows version.  It is completely written for the Mac by Mac developers.  It would be easier to take these requests seriously (as you say), if the facts used in the argument were correct.

My Books in Logos & FREE Training

Posts 38
jcc | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 29 2009 1:03 PM
I'm just using the same term that Bob used in his letter to David. In fact, if it was developed from scratch, it supports my point even more--that it was so Windows platform dependent that they couldn't even re-use the old code base and had to spent the money to develop it from scratch.
Posts 204
Steven Yu | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 2 2009 9:48 PM

Anyone doing a test with ver4 under WINE or Codeweaver?

"And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free", John 8:32.
"你們必定認識真理,真理必定使你們自由", 約翰福音 8:3.

Posts 8601
TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 3 2009 6:23 AM

Stephen,

I had been trying to get it to install under Ubuntu/wine until my laptop gave out, so far no luck but I really didn't give it the attention I wanted to.

My (weak) theory is that mono and moonlight could make it possible for the windows version to work under wine or codeweavers but so far no go.

Truth Is Still Truth Even if You Don't Believe It

Check the Wiki

Warning: Sarcasm is my love language. I may inadvertently express my love to you.

Posts 119
Ross Durham | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 4 2009 12:06 PM

Bob,

What is the time frame for option D) you list above?  Thank you. 

 

Ross

Posts 2
Seth A Georgson | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 8 2009 3:34 PM

I am definitely a fan of Logos, and was in fact required to buy it as a seminary student.  However, I am getting pretty tired of running it through a virtual Windows XP (VirtualBox) on my Ubuntu machine. It slows down my computer significantly and is a pain to boot up.

Yes, Linux users like free software.  Windows users also like free software; they're just more notorious for pirating programs they should be paying for.  Linux users are generally better at recognizing quality software, what kinds of things should be paid for and what kinds of things can be had for no cost. 

I'm all about the Internet-based option, but I can tell you now that many places where I use Logos I don't have much for Internet. That would be even slower than my current option.

I like your current philosophy of a free engine and paying for the books.  I can tell you that I would pay for more books if I had the convenience of using your software more conveniently.  Right now I only use Logos when I have to, which means I'm not going to buy more books for it when it's actually less time and hassle for me to get the physical book off my shelf.

Posts 2774
J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 8 2009 3:47 PM

SethAGeorgson:
I like your current philosophy of a free engine and paying for the books.  I can tell you that I would pay for more books if I had the convenience of using your software more conveniently.
Well, it will cost at least 1 Million dollars to put Logos on Linux.  I somehow doubt you are buying that many books.

My Books in Logos & FREE Training

Posts 9945
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 8 2009 3:48 PM

SethAGeorgson:
I am definitely a fan of Logos, and was in fact required to buy it as a seminary student.  However, I am getting pretty tired of running it through a virtual Windows XP (VirtualBox) on my Ubuntu machine. It slows down my computer significantly and is a pain to boot up.

Why don't you just get a Windows machine and use it as dedicated to Logos?  They're pretty cheap right now.  Perhaps you'd prefer to get a Commodore 64 and ask Logos to tailor their program for that? 

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 3648
Floyd Johnson | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 8 2009 3:55 PM

George Somsel:
Why don't you just get a Windows machine and use it as dedicated to Logos?  They're pretty cheap right now.  Perhaps you'd prefer to get a Commodore 64 and ask Logos to tailor their program for that? 

Hey, I have one.  Do you think they might do it? Smile

Blessings,

Floyd

Blessings,
Floyd

Pastor-Patrick.blogspot.com

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