Another plea for eInk/eReader/PDF conversion at risk of losing business: A gentle rant

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This post has 34 Replies | 5 Followers

Posts 8
John Shelton | Forum Activity | Posted: Sat, Nov 6 2010 7:12 PM

[If there is already a solution disregard the following message and tell me about it :)]

Grace and peace to you all in the Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with such an amazing resource for understanding His Word!

Yes, every one of us with Logos who are either in seminary or the pastorate and who also possess an eReader which utilizes electronic ink has likely scoured the web for a way to read Logos books on their eReader.  I love my Logos software, and the ability to multitask and extend my study beyond one book to nearly limitless linked resources (dictionary/hebrew-greek concordance/exegetical commentaries/various translations etc.) is amazing and I understand that to put the software onto an eReader would severely limit the speed and efficiency at which one might utilize Logos.  However, I often find myself doing nothing but, suprise, reading one source at a time (as if I had a real book open like in olden times). 

As of yet I have found no way to even convert Logos files to PDF so that I can transfer them to my eReader.  I believe I should have the right to do that as an owner of the property which I have purchased.  I know that one could hypothetically scroll through their books and highlight/copy/paste into a Word document then convert to PDF.  But this defeats the purpose for which I purchased Logos to begin with: convenience.

Now I find myself at a crossroads, I currently have  the NICOT (22 volumes) and NICNT (18 volumes) in my shopping cart at an online retailer which far undersells the digital price here at Logos.  Why?  For the same reason everyone here purchases any physical book that they can get a great deal on; to save themselves the eye strain, and to have the joy of holding onto what your reading without cord's/noise/boot screens/etc.  But I've yet to click the confirm purchase button because I thought I might try to appeal to this community to continually beg the fine folks at Logos to give us some method of saving our eyes from (*calculates time spent reading from Logos today*) 11 hours in front of the computer screen!  It's madness I tell you! 

So please, Logos, provide a way for us to, by a few clicks, convert .logos4 and .llxss?ish files into PDF or even word.  You already allow it through the copy/paste feature.  Why not make it easy on us?  I don't want to spend $1100 on books that I could otherwise spend towards expanding my digital/portable library.  But you leave me with little choice!  I will hold off for now since this is my first time posting regarding this issue, and perhaps there is some trick to accomplish said file conversion.

So then, is this a threat?  I suppose it is, hahah.  Competition with other retailers might accomplish what we've all been begging for (I hope all, anyway... I'm just sort of assuming after reading a few dozen similar faqs, but none with such a direct threat for loss of business).

Blessings from Wilmington, NC,

John Shelton

P.S.  My apologies to anyone directed to this page from their search engine in hopes of finding a way to convert .logo4 in PDFs.  I understand your hopes are now crushed. But perhaps capitalistic inovation will win the day!

P.P.S.  Please forgive spelling errors.  I assure you, as a graduate student, I know how to use spell check, but due to my great eye strain, I'm unable to look at the screen any longer, save pressing the post key...

Posts 1993
Donnie Hale | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 6 2010 7:43 PM

First, I agree with this request. I have a Kindle, and I love it for pure reading. I have a lot of monographs in Logos that I just want to read end-to-end. Even on my laptop it's just not as nice as on the Kindle. I'm not going to discontinue my business to Logos - I'll always look first here for resources because of how I can use them, irrespective of price.

Second, all they have to do to make this at least marginally do-able is get rid of the 100 page limit on printing / export (and easily do-able if they have single-click "select all" functionality on the print/export screen). If there are agreements with specific publishers, then honor those (though I still think those are suspect - anyone can break the binding off a book and scan / digitize it - silly rules like 100 page limits only impact the honest). But a huge portion of the Logos catalog is public domain.

Third, make sure you check out http://www.isv.org/anomaly/index.htm before placing too much faith in MS Word => .pdf conversion.

Donnie

 

Posts 153
Rob Kuefner | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 6 2010 9:21 PM

John & Donnie,

While I agree that reading on an e-ink reader is much better for the eyes, and I don't do much reading of logos resources end to end on the laptop... from previous responses from Logos, I do think that Logos is providing some of what we currently want by way of Biblia.com through your ereader's browser if it has one... I have read on my kindle through the advanced mode some of the resources available on Biblia.com which continues to be a growing #... the challenge for Logos of course would be which ereader to publish to... do you put your eggs into the Kindle .azw basket... or the epub basket...  it's still a fairly changing market... since we do have the ability to access biblia.com... it makes it possible to read our Logos resources through any device with a browser and web access... smart phone, ereader, computer or whatever. If you need assistance Donnie in using your kindle to access biblia.com, I'd certainly be willing to help you do so... John, I didn't notice a mention of what type of ereader you have, so my answer may or may not help you... 

Posts 27232
Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 6 2010 11:08 PM

John,

Welcome to the forums!

John Shelton:
As of yet I have found no way to even convert Logos files to PDF so that I can transfer them to my eReader.  I believe I should have the right to do that as an owner of the property which I have purchased.  I know that one could hypothetically scroll through their books and highlight/copy/paste into a Word document then convert to PDF.  But this defeats the purpose for which I purchased Logos to begin with: convenience.

It's unfortunate that we have to start by discussing user right's and expectations:

  • The EULA (Logos 4 licence) states that you MAY NOT - "reverse engineer, disassemble, decompile or make any attempt to "unlock" or circumvent the digital copyright protection of the Content".
  • But you can export portions of a resource to a PDF Printer via the Print/Export feature (Ctrl+P).
  • If the product is not suitable for your purpose then Logos will refund your money (Logos is more generous than standard consumer protection laws in many instances).

John Shelton:
Now I find myself at a crossroads, I currently have  the NICOT (22 volumes) and NICNT (18 volumes) in my shopping cart at an online retailer which far undersells the digital price here at Logos.  Why?  For the same reason everyone here purchases any physical book that they can get a great deal on; to save themselves the eye strain, and to have the joy of holding onto what your reading without cord's/noise/boot screens/etc.  But I've yet to click the confirm purchase button because I thought I might try to appeal to this community to continually beg the fine folks at Logos to give us some method of saving our eyes from (*calculates time spent reading from Logos today*) 11 hours in front of the computer screen!  It's madness I tell you! 

The community can be of little assistance with regard to the urgency of your decision. We have continually appealed for better printing support for many years with Libronix (L3) and now with Logos4 (L4), so we clearly cannot coerce ("the risk of losing business") Logos into making decisions on your behalf.

If this indeed is "A gentle rant" then Logos Customer Support should have been your audience.

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

Posts 13420
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 7 2010 12:22 AM

I'd be 99% sure that the licence agreements Logos has signed with publishers prevents them allowing Logos to export into the formats you specify. Remember, Logos doesn't own the books it publishes in Logos format, and publishers are free to publish the same books in other formats (and many do). Personally I can't see that situation every changing. At least with Logos our one licence covers many devices, even if it doesn't cover multiple formats.

This situation is compounded by the problem that Amazon won't let other formats on their Kindle. The best you could hope for, I would imagine, is that someone releases a very popular reading device that is sufficiently powerful to run a version of Logos. Logos might then develop a version for it, just as they've done with the iPad. Until then…

One final thought. If all you're going to do is read books, by all means purchase from a competitor. But if you're actually going to study them, I think you'd be far better of with Logos and all its tools - despite the limitations.

Posts 15
Mark McP | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 7 2010 1:27 AM

John, I fully agree with your request ... I want to spend my money on Logos resources but need also need the eye relief that comes with using a Kindle.  I post here just so that Logos might recognize that others have this same need and I certainly hope that Logos finds a way to solve the legal (and any technical) issues posted in the other responses because I know that it would certainly be a great help to many of it's customers to provide them the ability to use resources to study and to just enjoy (simple ebook reading) when we have some down-time.

Posts 3163
Dominick Sela | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 7 2010 4:32 AM

IMHO you only have to read a little on these forums and see the performance challenges people have on desktops and laptops to know that the only way Logos 4 would run on an eReader would be with a specific version built for it, severely stripped down in capability. I wonder if it would even be possible for things like search to work at all, with acceptable performance. Screen display etc. would be very problematic with the hardware on the eReaders.

That said, the only choice then would likely be to build some sort of simple reader only program, to download a resource from the blog and let it be read.  That costs time and $$$$. This would be one more thing Logos has to do while many features and improvements that a larger percentage of their audience desires, go uncompleted.

Maybe it happens today, but IMHO I can't see that an eReader is the right priority given the other things currently unfinished on Logos' plate.

Posts 1680
Jerry M | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 7 2010 5:15 AM

John Shelton:
book that they can get a great deal on; to save themselves the eye strain, and to have the joy of holding onto what your reading without cord's/noise/boot screens/etc.

Until there is an advance in e-ink technology and/or a loosing up of restrictions on exporting of resources, there are a couple of things we can do.  We can go into program settings and change the screen color to grey to ease eye strain; ipad also has settings to help read in different light situations.  A paged view for reading is currently in beta and will be generally released soon.  For portability the ipad is just the ticket, but with some restrictions on total Logos usage.  The HP Slate 500 is soon to be widely available, which is to have all the portability of the ipad but will be able to run all of Logos 4, but probably will not be as smooth in the use of some apps. So in my opinion it is better to try to flow with what is available whenever possible.  Of course these tablets aren't free, but are necessary if portability is a high priority.

"For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power"      Wiki Table of Contents

Posts 2872
Kevin A. Purcell | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 7 2010 6:09 AM

Publishers of digital content will not allow us to read what we want where we want even for a fee because they assume we are all thieves looking for ways to steal their content and sell it to others at worst or just give it away to all of our friends. We know this is silly, even though it does go on. But those who would steal will find a way around the limitations and those of us who won't will be hurt by the policy. So until there is a big change in the publishing industry, what you want will not exist.

The closes thing to it is the iPad and the Logos app, or maybe if they publish an Android app. Now that Kindle has an API maybe Logos will go in that direction, but I doubt the publishers will let much of the content work on it.

Posts 3854
Floyd Johnson | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 7 2010 8:50 AM

I have suggested it before, but will do it again:  It is easy to print to PDF using any number of virtual printers (I use CutePDF - choose your favorite).  I then will read with PDF Annotator on my TabletPC.  Note, I cannot legally share these files, but for personal use, I think I am safe.  PDF Annotator is not free but not too expensive and allows files to be marked up using a large number of highlighters, pens, and stamps.  In fact the more recent versions include their own virtual printer (i.e. "Print to PDFAnnotator")  saving the hassle of finding one of your own.  I owned CutePDF before PDF Annotator, so I continue to use it.  

If I remember correctly, the Kindle can read PDA files - so that may also be a solution.

Blessings,
Floyd

Pastor-Patrick.blogspot.com

Posts 1374
nicky crane | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 7 2010 10:44 AM

Jerry M:
 We can go into program settings and change the screen color to grey to ease eye strain;

How do I do that in Vista?  I've tried and failed to find how to do it.Sad

Thanks in advance for your helpSmile

Posts 2992
Forum MVP
Jacob Hantla | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 7 2010 1:35 PM

I am able to read my Logos books on eReaders easily:

1. My kindle has internet access and I can access the books and reading plans at library.logos.com which works pretyt well. 

2. I can copy and paste sections into Word and then send the word file to my Kindle. I often do this as I'm doing research with the passage guide but am not going to have time to sit and read at the computer. I create a compiled Word doc of what I want to read using copy and paste. Logos has done us a huge favor by trusting us not to abuse the privilege of copy/paste and as far as I can tell not limiting the amount of text you can copy and paste. BUT option #3 is even better

3. Print/save as a word doc/xps/text/html document. I can also print to my pdf printer and end up with a pdf document. The new print/export function (Ctrl-P) is an incredibly useful tool. View the screen shot below that shows how you can select the exact section you want to print or export. 

 

Logos is not in the business of locking down our books, but rather they are going through great effort and expense to ensure that we can use the resources we purchase in a multitude of different ways. The new Print/Export function and the online access (biblia.com and library.logos.com and iOs readers) are just the newest examples of how they are working hard to do that. 

Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org

Posts 1680
Jerry M | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 7 2010 5:11 PM

nicky crane:

Jerry M:
 We can go into program settings and change the screen color to grey to ease eye strain;

How do I do that in Vista?  I've tried and failed to find how to do it.Sad

Thanks in advance for your helpSmile

I meant the program settings in Logos 4 in the tools drop down.  The selection called Resource Panel Background has a small triangle on the right side which has a dropdown menu of background color choices.  I don't know how to change Logos from windows.

 

 

"For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power"      Wiki Table of Contents

Posts 376
Dan Sheppard | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 7 2010 6:36 PM

Jacob Hantla:
3. Print/save as a word doc/xps/text/html document. I can also print to my pdf printer and end up with a pdf document. The new print/export function (Ctrl-P) is an incredibly useful tool. View the screen shot below that shows how you can select the exact section you want to print or export. 

 

I didn't know you could select the section and copy/paste from there.  I have always highlighted the section and then went into it, to see what did not copy.

 

Posts 3810
spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 7 2010 6:55 PM

Dan Sheppard:

Jacob Hantla:
3. Print/save as a word doc/xps/text/html document. I can also print to my pdf printer and end up with a pdf document. The new print/export function (Ctrl-P) is an incredibly useful tool. View the screen shot below that shows how you can select the exact section you want to print or export. 

 

I didn't know you could select the section and copy/paste from there.  I have always highlighted the section and then went into it, to see what did not copy.

 

don't forget  also that you can right click on a section in the print panel and select to print all sub-sections. So if you right click on a Chapter title you can auto-check all the sub headings in that chapter.

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Forum MVP
Jacob Hantla | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 7 2010 8:29 PM

Philip Spitzer:

Dan Sheppard:

Jacob Hantla:
3. Print/save as a word doc/xps/text/html document. I can also print to my pdf printer and end up with a pdf document. The new print/export function (Ctrl-P) is an incredibly useful tool. View the screen shot below that shows how you can select the exact section you want to print or export. 

 

I didn't know you could select the section and copy/paste from there.  I have always highlighted the section and then went into it, to see what did not copy.

 

don't forget  also that you can right click on a section in the print panel and select to print all sub-sections. So if you right click on a Chapter title you can auto-check all the sub headings in that chapter.

Yup. Logos has made it very easy to make your books printable and portable. They have done far more than the original poster is even asking for.

Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org

Posts 1374
nicky crane | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 7 2010 10:58 PM

Jerry M:
I meant the program settings in Logos 4 in the tools drop down.  

Thank you, Jerry!  Easy with your help!  Big Smile

Posts 1993
Donnie Hale | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 8 2010 6:15 AM

Jacob Hantla:

Yup. Logos has made it very easy to make your books printable and portable. They have done far more than the original poster is even asking for.

Try it for a selection more than 100 pages, i.e. the length of a real book. Doesn't work so well...

Donnie

 

Posts 1374
nicky crane | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 8 2010 7:46 AM

Donnie Hale:

Jacob Hantla:

Yup. Logos has made it very easy to make your books printable and portable. They have done far more than the original poster is even asking for.

Try it for a selection more than 100 pages, i.e. the length of a real book. Doesn't work so well...

Donnie

So do it in steps!  That works with printing, a chapter or 2 at a time.

 

Posts 236
Michael March | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 8 2010 2:17 PM

When I use ctrl p, I don't get the bottom options you have, including, "send to new document/microsoft word"

How can I get that in mine?  I have logos 4 latest (not beta) and word 2007 on one computer and 2010 on the other.

thanks--

Mike

Windows PC - Android Phone - Surface Pro 4

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