Font Question

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Posts 12
Ingo Sorke | Forum Activity | Posted: Thu, Nov 11 2010 8:46 AM

Not a Logos user yet . . . 

1) Does Logos work with the Greek/Hebrew SBL fonts SPIonic and SPTiberian + Mac Office Word 2011?

Difficulty with installation/utilization of these fonts with Word?

2) Does Logos "read" foreign (Greek, Hebrew and other)  Bible texts to you?

3) Any chance of Carta products coming to Logos? (e.g., The Sacred Bridge, etc.)

Thanks,

Ingo

 

Posts 1246
David Mitchell | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 11 2010 9:03 AM

Ingo Sorke:
1) Does Logos work with the Greek/Hebrew SBL fonts SPIonic and SPTiberian + Mac Office Word 2011?

I'm not familiar with these fonts or their use in Word for Mac. I do know that Apple's layout of Hebrew text is horribly, horribly broken, and that this affects Word—if you need to do anything with Hebrew, and you can't (or won't) use a machine running Windows, get Mellel. It's the only word processor that handles Hebrew correctly.

Ingo Sorke:
2) Does Logos "read" foreign (Greek, Hebrew and other)  Bible texts to you?

We have a Greek Audio New Testament available for purchase. I believe that text-to-speech should work for most modern languages. We don't currently support Hebrew read-aloud.

Ingo Sorke:
3) Any chance of Carta products coming to Logos? (e.g., The Sacred Bridge, etc.)

I have no idea.

David Mitchell
Development Lead
Faithlife

Posts 12
Ingo Sorke | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 11 2010 10:27 AM

Thanks for your input.

A publisher requires those fonts with Word as the final submission document . . . my investing in Logos will depend on the feasibility of those criteria.

Posts 4693
Forum MVP
Mike Binks | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 11 2010 11:59 AM

Hi Ingo

Ingo Sorke:
A publisher requires those fonts with Word as the final submission document . . . my investing in Logos will depend on the feasibility of those criteria.

As I understand it then Logos will not be your problem. You will be able to 'Copy and Paste' text from logos and then set that text in any font that Word will cope with.

Just use (cmd)+alt+shift+v when pasting instead of +v

 

Posts 8893
fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 12 2010 6:01 AM

Ingo Sorke:
3) Any chance of Carta products coming to Logos? (e.g., The Sacred Bridge, etc.)

Please add your vote to this thread, where it's more likely to be seen by the right people: http://community.logos.com/forums/t/25757.aspx.

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

Mac Pro OS 10.9.

Posts 1246
David Mitchell | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 12 2010 8:00 AM

Ingo Sorke:
A publisher requires those fonts with Word as the final submission document . . . my investing in Logos will depend on the feasibility of those criteria.

If your publisher requires those things and you need to present Hebrew text in your documents, then you need a copy of Windows.

David Mitchell
Development Lead
Faithlife

Posts 12
Ingo Sorke | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 12 2010 10:08 AM

? Those fonts are present in Mac only environments, and should work between a software package and Mac Office 2011, without Windows. But I might misunderstand something here.

Basically, I want to make sure I can simply highlight Greek/Hebrew text and copy/paste into Word (or "export") and it can come out or be formatted in the fonts mentioned above. Copy/paste is one of my most critical workflows; it needs to work without much tweaking and work-arounds.

Thanks - Ingo

Posts 1246
David Mitchell | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 12 2010 10:21 AM

Ingo Sorke:

? Those fonts are present in Mac only environments, and should work between a software package and Mac Office 2011, without Windows. But I might misunderstand something here.

Basically, I want to make sure I can simply highlight Greek/Hebrew text and copy/paste into Word (or "export") and it can come out or be formatted in the fonts mentioned above. Copy/paste is one of my most critical workflows; it needs to work without much tweaking and work-arounds.

Thanks - Ingo

In addition to having the font present on your system, you also need software capable of reading that font and laying out its glyphs correctly. Ancient Hebrew is a very complex script, and Apple incredibly poor support for it: there are even certain sequences of characters that, when laid out with a line break at a particular point, will crash any application that doesn't have an explicit workaround!

Microsoft has very good support for laying out Hebrew text in Windows, but they did not bring this code to the Mac version of Office, instead choosing to rely on Apple's text layout system.

If you need to see Hebrew text properly laid out, you need to use a specific font, and you need to use Microsoft Word, then you need to use Windows.

There's no way around that.

David Mitchell
Development Lead
Faithlife

Posts 12
Ingo Sorke | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 12 2010 10:40 AM

Interesting! You do realize that I'm talking about a non-Unicode font . . .

"Apple" and "incredibly poor" in one sentence . . . hope you don't get your tires slashed - LOL!

Posts 1246
David Mitchell | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 12 2010 2:54 PM

Ingo Sorke:
Interesting! You do realize that I'm talking about a non-Unicode font . . .

Oh. We don't support those.

David Mitchell
Development Lead
Faithlife

Posts 82
David L Adams | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 13 2010 4:56 AM

Ingo:

Just to clarify, Logos uses Unicode for both internal processes and copy/paste functions. There is no support for exporting text to ASCII font formats. This is a problem for uses insofar as they have to get biblical texts into most Mac word processors or PowerPoint or Keynote. As a person who does this all day long (both for teaching using Keynote and in writing a commentary on the book of Genesis and in supervising graduate students who are writing doctoral dissertations in biblical studies), I struggle with the problem constantly. On the word processor side David mentioned Mellel. It is a good program, if a bit difficult to get to know and use. Also, its ability to open and save documents in Word format is limited. I have found that Nisus Writer Pro does Hebrew just as well (or close enough as to be acceptable for all purposes that I have so far discovered), and has three other advantages: (1) it is rather easier to use; (2) as a more mature product it has a more extensive feature set; and (3) its native file format is RTF. This last one is quite important since it means that Nisus files can be opened by very nearly every other word processor without having to export. If you need to exchange files with a Word user, or to submit something in a format that can be edited in Word, this is a big advantage. Having used Mellel for the last couple of years, I have just recently switched over to using Nisus full time. I moved the 500 pages of my commentary (some cleanup required) and am finding that I prefer Nisus to Mellel. But word processors are to a large degree a matter of personal taste, and you may find one more congenial than another for different reasons than I do. That is why my advice to to try them both out and see which better suits your needs and your way of working.

However, if you are required to use ASCII fonts instead of Unicode fonts, then you cannot get the text out of Logos in a format that you can use. It is simply not possible. You have two alternatives. First, you could get a copy of the biblical text in plain text format that is formatted for the ASCII encoding system used by the fonts that you require. I have a set encoded for a different ASCII font, and I should think that for the SBL fonts it should not be too hard to find them. Those fonts have been around a long time, and a lot of people have used them. So texts should be readily available. The second alternative (the one that I use) is to have a copy of Accordance and use it for copying the text and pasting it into your word processor of choice. Accordance supports both ASCII and Unicode export (a preference setting).

Personally, I find Logos far better than Accordance for study purposes. I use Accordance only for copying text that I need to paste in Keynote in ASCII format. But at least that provides a functional if cumbersome  workaround. However, if you had to buy both, it would be a bit expensive (I have had Accordance for about 15 years, so that is not an issue for me). If I did not already have Accordance, I would probably opt for the text file solution for use with non-Unicode applications. (By the way, just to clarify, virtually all current Mac applications support Unicode fonts ... the issues in not font support, but support for complex compositional issues, such as right-to-left text entry. People often confuse these two distinct but related issues.)

For Mac users who have to write and/or teach using biblical Hebrew (Greek is much less of a problem since it does not have the compositional issues that Hebrew does), the situation is not going to get any better in the short term. Microsoft has made it clear that it is not going to put support for complex Unicode text layout into Word. Logos is (alas) not going to add a feature that will allow us to export in ASCII format. Apple will eventually improve its native support for languages with complex compositional issues (Hebrew, Arabic, and Thai among them), but only gradually, and not any time soon. So we are going to be left with having to adopt one of these work-arounds for the foreseeable future. For Word processing, the Nisus (or Mellel) option works well, especially if your publisher will accept an RTF file (which they can open and edit in Word with no problem). For presentations, the problem remains rather untidy. It is a manageable nuisance. It is not any worse than it has been for the last 25 years; unfortunately it is also not much better. The ideal solution would be for Apple and Microsoft to add better support for the complex compositional issues to their software. That will eventually happen, but only over a long time frame. The quickest resolution would be for Logos to add ASCII export. That would be a great service to all of us, but I do not expect that to happen.

I hope this clarifies the options for you. Please let me know if I can help further.

–  DLA

Posts 12
Ingo Sorke | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 13 2010 7:34 PM

Great response, David - very informative and relevant. I appreciate it very much. Life was easy with Bibleworks, a proprietary Greek and Hebrew font, Powerpoint, and, believe it or not, WordPerfect (with its Reveal Codes). I produced my own Powerpoints of Mounce's BBG in no time; copying/pasting and typing in Greek seemed to be a breeze. Adding multiple platforms and OS environments, along with imposed guidelines, has complicated matters significantly. Last but not least, my students use all 3 major Bible softwares; I'm trying to become somewhat conversant in all 3.

Thanks again,

Ingo

 

Posts 82
David L Adams | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 15 2010 6:54 AM

Ingo:

You are welcome ... always happy to help out when I can.

You are right to suggest that in some ways doing Greek and Hebrew with ASCII was simpler, as long as either one did not have to exchange documents with someone or if they were using exactly the same setup that you had. In my case, having to move documents back and forth between myself and graduate students, and myself and colleagues in Israel — some Mac and some Windows, and all different word processors and bible software — has made Unicode (and RTF) a real lifesaver. There is a bit of a learning curve to working with Unicode, and some problems arise from the fact that it is still not fully (or well) implemented in a lot of software. This makes getting into it a bit painful, especially if there is no one around who can help you iron out the little problems. But having worked with it a while I can now say that it does make things a lot simpler in the long run for those of us who have to exchange files containing Greek and Hebrew with others. Greek is hardly ever a problem. And if you are doing mostly/exclusively Greek you can cut and paste from Logos into Word or PowerPoint or Keynote or most anything else with hardly any difficulties. As I said before, Hebrew is a much bigger problem because of the layout issues.

By the way, since you mentioned BibleWorks, I assume you know that the BW ASCII fonts are available for the Macintosh from the BW website. That may help you if you have some old files that you want to use without re-doing the Greek or Hebrew. I use them since I occasionally get a file from a Windows BW user, and except for some spacing issues related to the BW Hebrew font, things seem to work OK.

But your main issue, as I recall, was working with a publisher who requires Word files with the old SBL ASCII fonts. If it were me I would contact them as ask them when (not if) they are going to make the move to Unicode — talk to their technical people not the editors, who may not know what you are talking about. You can point out that with the release of the SBL Hebrew and SBL Greek the academic community is definitely moving in that direction. Perhaps they would be willing to accept your project as a 'test case' for making the move. If Greek is mostly what you are including, there should really be no problems at all.

Please let me know if I can help further.

– DLA

Posts 12
Ingo Sorke | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 15 2010 2:16 PM

Thanks, good insights.

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 15 2010 2:32 PM

Ingo Sorke:

1) Does Logos work with the Greek/Hebrew SBL fonts SPIonic and SPTiberian + Mac Office Word 2011?

Difficulty with installation/utilization of these fonts with Word?

I don't have a MAC, but I did happen to still have SPIonic on my machine for some reason so I created a new note and tried typing in SPIonic.  It works.  Frankly, unless there are some requirements that forces you to use those legacy fonts, I would go to a unicode font. 

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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