Recomandation a book about Rapture.

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Posts 23
Garry Vanderveen | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 25 2010 8:35 AM

"The Bible and the Future" by Anthony A. Hoekema is a great book on biblical prophecy and eschatology.

Posts 21
Monty Bower | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 25 2010 9:28 AM

I would recommend Robert Jewett, Jesus Against the Rapture as a prerequisite for any study of the subject.

i7-2630QM (2nd Gen), Radeon HD6770M 1G (DDR5), 8G DDR3, 1 TB 5400 HD, Win10 64

Posts 3139
Tes | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 25 2010 9:49 AM

Tom C:

Giovanni Baggio:

LOL...that was not a Theological discussion Mark, I was just stating  A FACT so our friend here won't be mislead like many people have been misled.  I recommend the following book: "A Rupture of the Rapture Theory."  So there, more resources for him to consider. Stick out tongue

Whatever

Out of context

Blessings in Christ.

Posts 3139
Tes | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 25 2010 10:02 AM

Dan DeVilder:

Giovanni Baggio:

I recommend the following book: "A Rupture of the Rapture Theory."  So there, more resources for him to consider. Stick out tongue

Geovanni, guess what?  I probably agree with your end-times theology! . . . but you could have cut out your first post and only written the above part of your last post--and you would have had a much bigger impact, AND been within forum decorum.  Tes didn't ask for us to debate the theology.  I can imagine you are a fun and lively debater, but a different approach is called for on these forums.

 

Richard DeRuiter, outstanding suggestion!

HI, Dann Du hast das Wort.

 

Blessings in Christ.

Posts 579
Jim VanSchoonhoven | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 25 2010 11:46 AM

Does anyone know where the idea of the rapture came from?  Looking for sources that demonstrate how and when the idea came about.

In Christ,

Jim VanSchoonhoven

Posts 5573
Forum MVP
Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 25 2010 12:34 PM

Jim VanSchoonhoven:
Does anyone know where the idea of the rapture came from?  Looking for sources that demonstrate how and when the idea came about.

How about 1Thessalonians 4:16-17? Even so, the articulation of this teaching was made popular when Dispensationalism began to be taught. At least I'm not aware of any teaching on a rapture before the arrival of Dispensationalism. I'd be happy to be corrected, though.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

Posts 8660
TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 25 2010 12:57 PM

Jim VanSchoonhoven:
Does anyone know where the idea of the rapture came from?  Looking for sources that demonstrate how and when the idea came about.
Jesus' teaching that he will return at a time that no-one suspects is also a part of the concept of a sudden rapture. 

The logic there is that  Jesus can't return unannounced if there is a seven year tribulation period required before he can return.

Of course views of pre/post/mid etc abound.  Richard's above suggestion to search against systematic theologies is a great suggestion.

Hmm Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 25 2010 12:58 PM

Jim VanSchoonhoven:

Does anyone know where the idea of the rapture came from?  Looking for sources that demonstrate how and when the idea came about.

In Christ,

Jim VanSchoonhoven

The idea of a Rapture must be separated from the idea of the Parousia since an emphasis on the Parousia does not necessarily include the concept of a Rapture.  The Parousia simply refers to the coming or being present of the Lord.  The biblical foundation for the concept of a rapture rests upon two foundations: 

(1) 1 Thess 4.13-18 where the only occurance of the Greek word ἁρπάζω is to be found when used in such a fashion (It is found a total of 14 times in the NT). 

(2) The Gospel Parables of the coming of the kingdom -- Mt 24.40-41, 24.28; 24.5 // Mk 13.5-6 // Lk 21.8 where it speaks of two compantions -- one being taken while the other is left.  In the Gospel Parables the word ἁρπάζω is not used but rather παραλαμβάνω signifying a similar concept. 

In theology I suspect that the concept was popularized by Darby who was the founder of the Plymouth Brethren. 

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 1539
Terry Poperszky | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 25 2010 1:17 PM

Jim VanSchoonhoven:
Does anyone know where the idea of the rapture came from? Looking for sources that demonstrate how and when the idea came about.

Jim, can't help you on when, all I have is a bunch of hearsay floating around in memory which I can't confirm. One tidbit though as to the word, I have always heard that it is derived from the Latin Vulgate (http://www.pre-trib.org/articles/view/rapture-myths).

 

The Term "Rapture" Firstof all, the word "rapture" is found in the Bible, if you have the Latin Vulgateproduced by Jerome in the early 400s. The Vulgate was the main Bible of themedieval Western Church until the Reformation. It continues to this day as theprimary Latin translation of the Roman Catholic Church. Yet, as we shall seelater, it was Protestants who introduced the word "rapture" into the Englishlanguage from the Latin raeptius.[1]It was Jerome's Vulgate that translated the original Greek verb harpaz used by Paul, under the inspiration of the HolySpirit, in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, which is usually translated into English withthe phrase "caught up." The leading Greek Lexicon says that harpaz means "snatch, seize, i.e., take suddenly andvehemently." This is the same meaning of the Latinword rapio "to seize, snatch,tear away. It should not be surprising toanyone, that an English word was developed from the Latin which we use todayknown as "rapture."

 

FYI, quoting this source does not imply that I agree with them concerning the existence and timing of the rapture.

 

 

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 25 2010 1:40 PM

Terry Poperszky:

 

Jim, can't help you on when, all I have is a bunch of hearsay floating around in memory which I can't confirm. One tidbit though as to the word, I have always heard that it is derived from the Latin Vulgate (http://www.pre-trib.org/articles/view/rapture-myths).

Most immediately, you are correct that the term derives from the Latin.  In the Vulgate translation of 1 Thess 4.17 where the Greek has 

1 Thessalonians 4:16–17 (NA27)

16ὅτι αὐτὸς ὁ κύριος ἐν κελεύσματι, ἐν φωνῇ ἀρχαγγέλου καὶ ἐν σάλπιγγι θεοῦ, καταβήσεται ἀπʼ οὐρανοῦ καὶ οἱ νεκροὶ ἐν Χριστῷ ἀναστήσονται πρῶτον, 17ἔπειτα ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι ἅμα σὺν αὐτοῖς ἁρπαγησόμεθα ἐν νεφέλαις εἰς ἀπάντησιν τοῦ κυρίου εἰς ἀέρα· καὶ οὕτως πάντοτε σὺν κυρίῳ ἐσόμεθα.

 1 Thessalonians 4:16–17 (VGCLEM)

16Quoniam ipse Dominus in jussu, et in voce archangeli, et in tuba Dei descendet de cælo : et mortui, qui in Christo sunt, resurgent primi. 17Deinde nos, qui vivimus, qui relinquimur, simul rapiemur *** illis in nubibus obviam Christo in aëra, et sic semper *** Domino erimus.

The Latin rapio, rapere, repi, raptus is a cognate of the Greek ἁρπάζω so the Latin is the immediate derivation of 'rapture' while it ultimately goes back to the Greek of 1 Thess 4.17.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 25 2010 2:40 PM

Jim VanSchoonhoven:

Does anyone know where the idea of the rapture came from?  Looking for sources that demonstrate how and when the idea came about.

In Christ,

Jim VanSchoonhoven

tom collinge:
Rossing, Barbara R.  The Rapture Exposed:  The Message of Hope in the Book of Revelation.  

Rossing talks about the theology and the origin of the rapture in her book.  I cannot remember all of the details, but I think John Nelson Darby is the founder of the theology that Jesus will return twice.  The first return will be in secret to rapture the church out of this world and up to heaven.  Christ will return a second time following a global tribulation to establish a Jerusalem-based kingdom on earth.  Cyrus Scofield took the King James Bible and added rapture notes in the margin commenting on each prophetic passage in light of Darby’s system.  Sales of the Scofield Reference Bible sold millions and Scofield’s notes and headings were elevated to the level of biblical authority.

Rossing's book is an in your face type of book.  So, she does rub some people the wrong way with her book.  Still, I recommend everyone to read this book because everyone needs to know the theology on both sides of the rapture's theology debate.


Posts 383
Daniel Bender | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 25 2010 3:40 PM

Tes:

Is there any one who could recommend me a  book about the rapture?

  

http://www.logos.com/product/7501/snatched-before-the-storm-a-case-for-pretribulationism

Overview

This booklet is ideal for the pastor teaching a class or preparing a sermon on the rapture of the church. It will also prove helpful for anyone seeking a concise, yet clear, explanation of pretribulationism.

 

Posts 19139
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 25 2010 4:05 PM

George Somsel:

The idea of a Rapture must be separated from the idea of the Parousia since an emphasis on the Parousia does not necessarily include the concept of a Rapture.  The Parousia simply refers to the coming or being present of the Lord.  The biblical foundation for the concept of a rapture rests upon two foundations: 

(1) 1 Thess 4.13-18 where the only occurance of the Greek word ἁρπάζω is to be found when used in such a fashion (It is found a total of 14 times in the NT). 

(2) The Gospel Parables of the coming of the kingdom -- Mt 24.40-41, 24.28; 24.5 // Mk 13.5-6 // Lk 21.8 where it speaks of two compantions -- one being taken while the other is left.  In the Gospel Parables the word ἁρπάζω is not used but rather παραλαμβάνω signifying a similar concept. 

In theology I suspect that the concept was popularized by Darby who was the founder of the Plymouth Brethren. 

The passage in Matt 24 about two men in a field, one being taken while the other is left, is often associated with the concept of a Rapture of the Church (removal of believers either before or midway through the Tribulation, to be spared from the worst of it). But in the context, it is talking about this time being "as in the days before the flood...they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man." The parallelism there would seem to indicate that the one in the field who is "taken away" is not emblematic of the redeemed; he is taken off to judgment where there is "weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matt 24:51), as in the days of the flood. That's the reverse of Darby's rapture teaching which has been popularized again in recent years by the Left Behind series.

There'a good article on Rapture of the Church in the Dictionary of Christianity in America that traces some of the history of the idea:

Rapture of the Church. A phrase premillennialists use to refer to the “catching up” (from Latin rapio) of the church to be with Christ at his Second Coming. All premillennialists trace the doctrine to the same passage (1 Thess 4:15–17) but disagree on when it will occur in relation to the tribulation period, which they identify as the “seventieth week” of Daniel 9:24–27. Historically, premillennialists have divided over whether the rapture will happen before, during or after the tribulation.

Pretribulationism, which is nearly identical with dispensationalism, argues that the rapture will occur before the tribulation. Though pretribulationists try to find the teaching throughout church history, in about 1830 John Nelson Darby was the first to divide the Second Coming into two stages: Christ’s coming for his saints before the tribulation (the rapture) and his coming with his saints after it (the Second Coming per se). This view was derived from his total distinction between the church and Israel: The church must be removed from the earth before God can resume his dealings with the Jews and fulfil the prophecies concerning the end times.

Pretribulationists find evidence for their view in Paul’s teaching that before Antichrist can be revealed, the “restrainer,” which they take as either the church or the Holy Spirit, must be removed (2 Thess 2:6–8); the fact that the church is not mentioned in the eschatological predictions of the Book of Revelation after chapter 3, indicating that the church must have been raptured; and the biblical warning that the rapture is imminent, which means that no prophesied event stands between the present and the coming of Christ for his saints. This view gained ascendancy in American premillennial circles before World War 1, thanks in large part to The Scofield Reference Bible (1909), and continues to the present in Hal Lindsey’s best-selling The Late Great Planet Earth (1970).

Midtribulationism, an alternative view, contends that the church will be raptured halfway through the tribulation. This view, championed by Harold J. Ockenga, Gleason L. Archer and others, became popular among a relatively small number of premillennialists after World War 2. Midtribulationalists believe that the frequent mention of forty-two months in key prophetic passages (e.g., Dan 7, 9, and 12; Rev 11 and 12) indicates that only half of Daniel’s seventieth week (three and a half years) will experience the terror usually associated with the entire tribulation period (Rev 16–18). In the first half of the seventieth week, the church will remain on earth, witnessing the rise of Antichrist, and experiencing persecution at his hand; but it will be raptured by Christ before God’s judgment and wrath are poured out. Advocates claim that their view remedies pretribulationism’s shortcomings, which include its insistence that the rapture will be “secret” and its inability to locate the rapture in the Olivet Discourse (Mt 24). Nevertheless, midtribulationism still divides the Second Coming into two phases.

Posttribulationism, which appears to be the oldest premillennialist view, holds that the rapture and the Second Coming of Christ will occur at the same time, at the end of the tribulation. Posttribulationists argue that no scriptural text explicitly divides the Second Coming into two parts. Paul’s most explicit passage on the rapture (1 Thess 4) does not mention its time relationship to the tribulation; but its accompanying phenomena (loud command, trumpet of God, gathering of the saints by angels, Christ coming on the clouds) are mentioned in other passages which do place them after the tribulation (Mt 24, Mk 13, Lk 21). Thus advocates of this view expect the church to go through the tribulation, suffering terrible persecution, but not experiencing the wrath of God because of divine protection (Rev 7). In order to come to these conclusions, posttribulationists generally play down the distinction between Israel and the church and the imminence of the rapture. Though eclipsed by pretribulationism before World War 1, this view has gained many followers since World War 2 through the writings George Ladd, Robert Gundry and others.

A small number of pretribulationists, led by G. H. Lang, have also argued for a partial rapture theory which contends that only the most faithful Christians will be raptured before the tribulation, with the rest being caught up sometime later, depending on their spiritual condition.

Though such interpretive disagreements may seem inconsequential to outsiders, differences over the timing of the rapture have often produced fierce antagonism among premillennialists, with advocates of one view refusing to associate with those of another.

See also Eschatology.

Bibliography.  G. E. Ladd, The Blessed Hope (1956); J. F. Walvoord, The Rapture Question (1979); J. D. Pentecost, Things to Come (1958); G. L. Archer et al, The Rapture: Pre-, Mid-, or Post-Tribulational? (1984).

T. P. Weber[1]

 



T. P. Weber = Weber, Timothy P., Ph.D., University of Chicago. Professor of Church History, Denver Seminary, Denver, Colorado.

[1] Daniel G. Reid, Robert Dean Linder, Bruce L. Shelley and Harry S. Stout, Dictionary of Christianity in America (Downers Grove, Ill.: InterVarsity Press, 1990).

Posts 3810
spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 25 2010 4:12 PM

tom collinge:

Rossing talks about the theology and the origin of the rapture in her book.  I cannot remember all of the details, but I think John Nelson Darby is the founder of the theology that Jesus will return twice.  The first return will be in secret to rapture the church out of this world and up to heaven.  Christ will return a second time following a global tribulation to establish a Jerusalem-based kingdom on earth.  Cyrus Scofield took the King James Bible and added rapture notes in the margin commenting on each prophetic passage in light of Darby’s system.  Sales of the Scofield Reference Bible sold millions and Scofield’s notes and headings were elevated to the level of biblical authority.

Rossing's book is an in your face type of book.  So, she does rub some people the wrong way with her book.  Still, I recommend everyone to read this book because everyone needs to know the theology on both sides of the rapture's theology debate.

To add to this, My understanding is that the future return to Christ concerns His return to earth, where he will actually descend to the ground. The rapture will see him descending to the clouds, and us meeting him there, but not a physical return to the earth.

Posts 383
Daniel Bender | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 25 2010 4:21 PM

Philip Spitzer:

To add to this, My understanding is that the future return to Christ concerns His return to earth, where he will actually descend to the ground. The rapture will see him descending to the clouds, and us meeting him there, but not a physical return to the earth.

This is my understanding as well.

 

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 25 2010 4:22 PM

Rosie Perera:

The passage in Matt 24 about two men in a field, one being taken while the other is left, is often associated with the concept of a Rapture of the Church (removal of believers either before or midway through the Tribulation, to be spared from the worst of it). But in the context, it is talking about this time being "as in the days before the flood...they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man." The parallelism there would seem to indicate that the one in the field who is "taken away" is not emblematic of the redeemed; he is taken off to judgment where there is "weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matt 24:51), as in the days of the flood. That's the reverse of Darby's rapture teaching which has been popularized again in recent years by the Left Behind series.

Not precisely.  Note Mt 2431 preceding

Matthew 24:31 (NA27)

31καὶ ἀποστελεῖ τοὺς ἀγγέλους αὐτοῦ μετὰ σάλπιγγος μεγάλης, καὶ ἐπισυνάξουσιν τοὺς ἐκλεκτοὺς αὐτοῦ ἐκ τῶν τεσσάρων ἀνέμων ἀπʼ ἄκρων οὐρανῶν ἕως [τῶν] ἄκρων αὐτῶν.

It would seem that the two objects are thus coterminous -- the gathering of the elect and the coming in judgment occur together.  It was the object of Amos to disabuse his hearers of the notion that the Day of the Lord was something which would be beneficial to them

Amos 5:18–20 (NRSV)

18Alas for you who desire the day of the Lord! Why do you want the day of the Lord? It is darkness, not light; 19as if someone fled from a lion, and was met by a bear; or went into the house and rested a hand against the wall, and was bitten by a snake.  20Is not the day of the Lord darkness, not light, and gloom with no brightness in it?

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 579
Jim VanSchoonhoven | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 25 2010 7:19 PM

In light of the material presented, I wonder why one of the first commnets on this thread said the rapture could not be found in the bible, do you think he did not know about the Latin-Greek connection?  And based his comments just on the English words?

In Christ,

Jim VanSchoonhoven

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 25 2010 7:56 PM

Jim VanSchoonhoven:

In light of the material presented, I wonder why one of the first commnets on this thread said the rapture could not be found in the bible, do you think he did not know about the Latin-Greek connection?  And based his comments just on the English words?

In Christ,

Jim VanSchoonhoven

I rather imagine you are referring to my comment.  I didn't say there was absolutely no basis in scripture for the concept of the rapture.  What I said was that the material relating (directly) to it was rather slim.  I said that I would look at arguments regarding the rapture with a rather jaundiced eye.  This is due to the fact that what little material relates to that interpretation is subject to other interpretations as well.  Also, much has been built upon other passages not directly related to the concept.  The whole edifice stikes me as a house of cards.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 579
Jim VanSchoonhoven | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 25 2010 10:48 PM

No George Somsel, it was not your comments it was some body else.

Posts 3285
Whyndell Grizzard | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 26 2010 2:39 AM

Ladd is some of the better resources for historical background and the articulation of the Second Coming- since I do not hold to a "rapture" as most mean it- I hold the view that believers who are alive go to meet Christ in the air at His Second Coming and them accompany Him back to earth to establish the Mill. Kingdom. Most call that post-tribulation rapture.

Remember not all Premillennialist are Pretribulationist- Premillennialism was around at the time of the Apostles- Pretribulationism arrived on the scene in 1800's- kinda of hard to be taught by Paul when it was invented 1800 years later.

Get Ladd's books "The Blessed Hope",  "A Theology of the New Testament", also invest in "A Case for Historic Premillennialism" Bloomberg and Chung.

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