If you want a better price call the sales department, or...?

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Phillip Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 28 2010 2:20 PM

Perhaps it IS a British thing after all. There is an inbuilt embarassment at asking whether I can have a product for less than it is shown on the website or promotional email.

If I feel the price is too high for me at the time then I hang on in there, hoping it will pop up in one of the periodic promotions. That's how I bagged the excellent Word Biblical Commentary and Hermeneia after a bit of waiting. It would never have occured to me to call the sales dept and ask whether they could improve on the price shown on the Logos website, though perhaps I should have been less reticent.

Being invited to pitch for three products this weekend reduced the embarassment, and I'm delighted by the discount I got on the Anchor Yale Bible Dictionary. I can understand that when you have already spent a few thousand dollars (or pounds), and are showing interest in further resources, Logos might be inclined to cut you a deal to reward you for your loyalty and keep you coming back for more. And there are SO many resources I could be adding to my collection...

Still, if my British reticence means that a discount I might have obtained by calling sales allows Logos to offer a bible student or missioner a really sweet deal then I'm not going to fret.

Posts 13399
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 28 2010 2:31 PM

Phillip Smith:
Still, if my British reticence means that a discount I might have obtained by calling sales allows Logos to offer a bible student or missioner a really sweet deal then I'm not going to fret.

That's a great perspective. Thanks.

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Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 28 2010 3:54 PM

Phillip!  *smile*

Yes!  Well-spoken!

Peace to you

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 28 2010 4:09 PM

Phillip Smith:
Perhaps it IS a British thing after all. There is an inbuilt embarassment at asking whether I can have a product for less than it is shown on the website or promotional email.

That is interesting and informative. I don't think any of my acquaintances here in the US are even a little bit embarrassed at asking for a discount, even at a fast food restaurant. Geeked (Some of them give us old folks discounts)

Posts 1081
Martin Folley | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 29 2010 4:02 AM

Phillip Smith:
Perhaps it IS a British thing after all. There is an inbuilt embarassment at asking whether I can have a product for less than it is shown on the website or promotional email.

Agreed ... Britishness and inconvenience of the time zones but ....

Phillip Smith:
If I feel the price is too high for me at the time then I hang on in there, hoping it will pop up in one of the periodic promotions

There have been many instance of 'insider offers' where certain people have had email offers that were not public offers. These offers contained a 'do not disclose this' clause. I am not sure if these came from the sales reps themselves. So  ... hanging on in there and waiting for the offer is also an issue since the offer might never come!. I have still not seen anything that identifies how these lucky few are chosen to receive these offers.

I do not know if, for example, I would be considered a 'high value' customer. I do not even know if that is part of the Logos criteria. I have about 2200 resources, based on platinum, gathered over the last four plus years.

Personally, in this sale, I asked for three items, got 20%-30% offers, and took them. If I were to receive other such offers, I would seriously consider those as well (Mrs. F is amazingly generous on this one). I wait for the offers! I am grateful for what is offered rather than what I perceive that I have missed, looking at what others have is never a good approach.

Mark Barnes:

So in a minor attempt to make things clear for others, here's what my experience has taught me (YMMV):

  • The best prices are to be found in Community Price, Pre-Pub and Academic Sales, in that order. You'll almost never beat these prices, even if you phone up.
  • You can nearly always get 10%-15% off base packages.
  • On other products, there's no guarantee at all that you will get a discount. I don't want this thread to give false hopes. But you're more likely to get a discount if:
    • You're not buying a boxed product, or a product from a publisher who also sells the product themselves.
    • You're buying a collection and you already have some resources in the collection.
    • You're buying multiple resources in one purchase.
    • You're a good customer (whatever that means). I'm guessing at this one, but it does seem to me that discounts that I've been offered have improved slowly over time.
  • I've not noticed any difference in price whether I email or phone.

I agree with all of Mark's experience ... it keeps me coming back ... although I have not gone so far as the last one, and probably never will ... not out of principle but out of reticence to initiate such a conversation.

2010 17" MBP with High Sierra, iPad4 with iOS10.

Posts 273
Brad Fry | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 29 2010 4:34 AM

For me it's all about convenience and getting on with my study. I love the simplicity and convenience of a few clicks and I've got my new resource. I'd like to be able to do that and know that I'm getting the best price possible. If Logos can automatically check to see what my discount would be on an upgrade they can automatically check my order history as a customer. Logos is still the best thing since buttered biscuits. I just think they could do better by those of us who prefer to order online.

Posts 1357
Edwin Bowden | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 29 2010 6:03 AM

I email my sales rep with my orders and he takes care of them for me.

Posts 2842
Michael Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 29 2010 8:06 AM

Michael G. Halpern:
I think the average user mainly invests in a basic package...a few hundred to several hundred dollars, not enough to make a substantial downpayment on a house.

Part of the problem is the inherent unfairness of this insider system.  It breeds distrust.

The fact is that there are many customers who have spent thousands of dollars on their Logos products, but have been unaware of the "insider" discounts.  They assume that price offered on the web page is their best deal, and thus over pay.  Logos does not advertise that you can call up and get a better deal.

Logos has the right to operate any way they want.  However, this method of operating does impact me.  I feel far less loyalty to Logos.  I feel somewhat ripped off - especially when I see people getting products for $100 to $ 200 less than I paid.  One response to this is to buy Logos resources first from third parties, auctions, etc.  where they are often cheaper anyway.  And where the price given you is generally the same for all.

 

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

Posts 255
Pat Flanakin | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 29 2010 8:16 AM

Fair?  Fair?  There is only One...I am sure you would agree..who is fair.

Logos is perfectly within their right to charge you such and such a price, then me another price, because that is where they thing the market is which is between you and me.  Whether they are charging a fair price is between them and management/ and the Lord for individuals making those pricing decisions.  They are well aware that if you charge too much, people stop buying...too little, then no profit at all.

Perhaps you recall the parable of the talents where the laborers who labored all day were given the same as those who only worked an hour.  They negotiated their pay and it was done.  Same goes here.

I would only suggest you respect business for being business and not superimpose fairness concepts that do not apply biblically.

Posts 32
Chuck Alford | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 29 2010 9:27 AM

I am a new Logos user, less than 3 months. I made the switch to Logos because I was looking for a better software package that could meet my study needs. I have used several popular brands throughout the years, none really sold me on functionality, usability, or on resource development.

Since switching to Logos I have mixed feelings about some of their "ethical" business practices when it comes to sales. I don't like the fact that things aren't out in the open and across the board for every customer. To "me" it gives the "appearance" of shady, under the table, good buddy deals. I don't think it is a good business practice. I think my money is just as good as the next persons money. If you reward one customer by passing on savings, then pass it on to the other customers as well.

I have "NEVER" liked commission based sales. I don't care if it creates competition withing the sales staff and it saves the company some money on hourly employees. Make them hourly employees and create incentive bonus for them to sale. I think commission based sales breeds shady deals along with distrust among the customer base.

I was very disappointed with Logos when I found out that I could have saved over a $100 on my base package if I would have called a sales rep. That's money that I could have used to invest in additional resources.

As far as the Logos product, I have really enjoyed using it so far; however, I am apprehensive about spending any more of my money with them because the distrust I feel they have created.

Posts 2842
Michael Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 29 2010 9:58 AM

Pat Flanakin:
Logos is perfectly within their right to charge you such and such a price, then me another price

Did you not read my post?  I think I said that Logos has the right to do this.

But just because you have the right to do something doesn't make it either "fair", right, or ethical.

I would only suggest you respect the right of others to disagree.  Try a little less self-righteousness.  Logos has the right to do what they want.  I have the right to feel about it as I want.

I would think that they would be interested in how their present policy is perceived.

 

 

 

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 29 2010 10:10 AM

Not really responding to anyone in particular, but to this thread in general.

First, let me say that I've been a Logos customer for years and have spent a lot of money purchasing resources. Note that by "a lot of money" I'm speaking about what I, not Logos may consider "a lot."

I have purchased many, many resources via the web site, mostly community pricing and pre-pubs, but other resources as well. I had heard of some calling Logos sales, but didn't understand the depth of the discounts that seem to be routinely offered to customers who call in. However, even though I heard about people getting better deals by calling sales (since before the forum days, and many, many times on these forums), I still made purchases via the web site. So I will say mea culpa for not investigating this path to greater savings, of which I was informed, albeit not from directly from Logos.

It seems to me there are two questions debated here: first, is this practice moral; second, is it wise. As to morality, I don't see anything here that seems deceptive, coercive, greedy, or anything else about this kind of thing. In many countries, getting a discount by building a relationship and talking with someone is the expected practice. In the U.S. it is the expected practice when buying a car, and is becoming more frequent when buying other things as well (especially electronics). So, while it may not be expected, it's not immoral, IMHO.

But is it wise? It is wise, if Logos prefers to build relationships with its customers, rather than simply do business with them. It's not wise from a strictly financial perspective (IMHO), since (I assume) web purchasing costs less (in the long run) than purchasing via an employee. So the point is debatable. Secondly, it is unwise if the expectation is that the best deals are on the web site, or that these prices are somehow deceptive, since one can get a better deal by speaking with a sales rep. From this discussion, we could conclude that this is an unwise, at least for these folks and others who share their expectations.

One other factor here, that I'm reminded of from my missionary days, is that an individual or company that seeks to increase employment, even when they could cut costs is acting more Christianly than a company that is merely concerned with the bottom line. So, looking for ways to employ more people by creating a sales department and creating a market for that sales department by offering better deals, would look like a noble and Christian thing to do in many, many cultures. Also the concept of building relationships with customers is seen as both expected and good (even though that concept is exploited by some), and, IMHO, a more Christian model than just taking money and giving stuff without so much as a "hello." In other words, I think much of the problem with this sales model is cultural, more than moral/ethical.

Finally, I'm wondering whether this whole Black Friday/Cyber Monday sale was designed with the intention of informing us of the sales department, and the deeper discounts we can get through a sales rep, all while providing an opportunity for us to save some money. It shows Logos commitment to this model, and has changed my mind about how I'll do future purchases (outside of community pricing and pre-pub's, of course - which are not available through the sales department). I also look forward to getting to know my sales rep a bit better. He seems like a great guy. I'm glad he's got a job with such a great company.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

Posts 13399
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 29 2010 10:56 AM

Again, responding to no-one in particular, but I want to re-iterate something I said earlier. You want always get discounts from sales staff, and even when you get them, they'll rarely be spectacular. I don't want people to feel they've been 'wasting' thousands or even hundreds of dollars by ordering on-line. If you spend $1,000/year on Logos, and half of that is on pre-pubs (no extra discount), it's unlikely you would have saved more than $50-$75 by phoning (perhaps 20% discounts on one or two items, probably none on others). $50 is still not to be sniffed at, but I don't want to leave the impression that there's an untapped gold mine out there.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 29 2010 11:17 AM

Richard DeRuiter:
It seems to me there are two questions debated here: first, is this practice moral; second, is it wise. As to morality, I don't see anything here that seems deceptive, coercive, greedy, or anything else about this kind of thing. In many countries, getting a discount by building a relationship and talking with someone is the expected practice. In the U.S. it is the expected practice when buying a car, and is becoming more frequent when buying other things as well (especially electronics). So, while it may not be expected, it's not immoral, IMHO.

Good observations Richard.  When shopping in Mexico you are expected to "haggle" over prices. It is also the norm when buying electronics in Japan. Some cultures are offended when the customer buys without "haggling."  Other countries, usually socialist economies, have price controls and are easily recognized by their lack of quality products like Logos Bible Software and fine luxury automobiles.

One can buy the same candy bar at an expensive price from "convenience stores" or a cheaper price from a warehouse market. Clicking on the Logos website is convenient. Calling or emailing a sales person takes a little time. But interacting with my salesman instead of a website, I have the satisfaction of feeling like family. And it is easier to brief the sales staff on new special offers than it is to update their prices among 10,000 product description pages.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 1357
Edwin Bowden | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 29 2010 11:35 AM

Chuck Alford:

I have "NEVER" liked commission based sales. I don't care if it creates competition withing the sales staff and it saves the company some money on hourly employees. Make them hourly employees and create incentive bonus for them to sale. I think commission based sales breeds shady deals along with distrust among the customer base.

I worked in Christian publishing for over 20 years.

For over 12 of those years, I was a "commission" sales rep calling on bookstores. Many of the buyers that I called on shared your apprehension about commission sales reps. There have been some unethical commission salesmen that have given commission sales a bad name. I guarantee you that they won't last long.

I quickly learned that all sales people work on commission--regardless of how their compensation is described. If you don't make enough sales, you don't have a job. It doesn't matter what kind of company you are working for. No company can afford to pay sales people who don't produce sales for the company.

I have seen unethical sales practices by both types of salesmen. Any salesman (regardless of the way he is compensated) who wants to be able to sell on a regular long-term basis to his customers must have integrity. If he does not produce happy customers, he isn't going to have a job for long.

We should have no problem with whatever method that Logos chooses to compensate its sales personnel. The Bible speaks clearly of fairly compensating those who labor. They are worthy of their reward.

Posts 32
Chuck Alford | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 29 2010 3:20 PM

Let me just say that I appreciate Logos for providing resources to help improve my study time. They have the best selections of resources that I have seen. I'm sure I could have saved more money if I would have learned about them years ago. The product is amazing, and it has saved me so much time in my preparations. I suppose that I should have kept to my policy of never airing my disappointments. I have made an inside sales contact that seems really helpful and is willing to do whatever possible to keep the me coming back. I guess we live in cultural setting here in the U.S. where customer service and sales has gone out the window, well almost.

Posts 442
Tony Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 29 2010 3:31 PM

Richard DeRuiter:

Not really responding to anyone in particular, but to this thread in general.

First, let me say that I've been a Logos customer for years and have spent a lot of money purchasing resources. Note that by "a lot of money" I'm speaking about what I, not Logos may consider "a lot."

I have purchased many, many resources via the web site, mostly community pricing and pre-pubs, but other resources as well. I had heard of some calling Logos sales, but didn't understand the depth of the discounts that seem to be routinely offered to customers who call in. However, even though I heard about people getting better deals by calling sales (since before the forum days, and many, many times on these forums), I still made purchases via the web site. So I will say mea culpa for not investigating this path to greater savings, of which I was informed, albeit not from directly from Logos.

It seems to me there are two questions debated here: first, is this practice moral; second, is it wise. As to morality, I don't see anything here that seems deceptive, coercive, greedy, or anything else about this kind of thing. In many countries, getting a discount by building a relationship and talking with someone is the expected practice. In the U.S. it is the expected practice when buying a car, and is becoming more frequent when buying other things as well (especially electronics). So, while it may not be expected, it's not immoral, IMHO.

But is it wise? It is wise, if Logos prefers to build relationships with its customers, rather than simply do business with them. It's not wise from a strictly financial perspective (IMHO), since (I assume) web purchasing costs less (in the long run) than purchasing via an employee. So the point is debatable. Secondly, it is unwise if the expectation is that the best deals are on the web site, or that these prices are somehow deceptive, since one can get a better deal by speaking with a sales rep. From this discussion, we could conclude that this is an unwise, at least for these folks and others who share their expectations.

One other factor here, that I'm reminded of from my missionary days, is that an individual or company that seeks to increase employment, even when they could cut costs is acting more Christianly than a company that is merely concerned with the bottom line. So, looking for ways to employ more people by creating a sales department and creating a market for that sales department by offering better deals, would look like a noble and Christian thing to do in many, many cultures. Also the concept of building relationships with customers is seen as both expected and good (even though that concept is exploited by some), and, IMHO, a more Christian model than just taking money and giving stuff without so much as a "hello." In other words, I think much of the problem with this sales model is cultural, more than moral/ethical.

Finally, I'm wondering whether this whole Black Friday/Cyber Monday sale was designed with the intention of informing us of the sales department, and the deeper discounts we can get through a sales rep, all while providing an opportunity for us to save some money. It shows Logos commitment to this model, and has changed my mind about how I'll do future purchases (outside of community pricing and pre-pub's, of course - which are not available through the sales department). I also look forward to getting to know my sales rep a bit better. He seems like a great guy. I'm glad he's got a job with such a great company.

Calling a sales rep every time that you place an order seems counterproductive since:

1. You are tying up a phone line resulting in longer hold times.

2. You are requiring Logos to eventually hire more sales reps to take calls.

3. You are cutting Logos margins by getting lower prices resulting in higher prices for resources for everyone else.

4. You are probably increasing the price of resources since more staff is required resulting in increased overhead.

 

Am I wrong here?  Doesn't buying electronically help to keep costs down?

 

Director of Zoeproject 

www.zoeproject.com

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 29 2010 4:06 PM

Tony Thomas:

Calling a sales rep every time that you place an order seems counterproductive since:

1. You are tying up a phone line resulting in longer hold times.

The sales department is separate from the support department, so it is counterproductive only in terms of sales. But if you have an email address for a sales rep, you should get the same price quote you would over the phone.

Tony Thomas:
2. You are requiring Logos to eventually hire more sales reps to take calls.

I discussed that in my post too. Overall, that's a good thing, I think.

Tony Thomas:
3. You are cutting Logos margins by getting lower prices resulting in higher prices for resources for everyone else.

Only if you can show that this program has an overall negative effect on profits, rather than a positive one. It's often true that we'll spend more in a place when we know the sales staff that works there. So even if Logos sells certain items more expensively, if they sell more of them than otherwise, they'll come out ahead.

Tony Thomas:
4. You are probably increasing the price of resources since more staff is required resulting in increased overhead.

Once again, this is only true if you can show that the increase in staff has an overall negative affect on Logos' profits. Maybe you've seen Logos' books. I haven't, but I know that they have a business model that works amazingly well. They're doing something right.

Tony Thomas:
Am I wrong here?  Doesn't buying electronically help to keep costs down?

I think the same way -- at least this seems intuitive to me, even obvious. Yet, Logos seems to keep hiring sales reps, which tells me that the ones they have are more than making up for their wages and other benefits.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

Posts 18876
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 29 2010 4:27 PM

Richard DeRuiter:

Tony Thomas:
3. You are cutting Logos margins by getting lower prices resulting in higher prices for resources for everyone else.

Only if you can show that this program has an overall negative effect on profits, rather than a positive one. It's often true that we'll spend more in a place when we know the sales staff that works there. So even if Logos sells certain items more expensively, if they sell more of them than otherwise, they'll come out ahead.

I can only speak from my own experience, but since I found out about establishing a relationship with a sales rep (in January of this year), the amount of money I've spent on Logos resources has skyrocketed. I'd been a customer since 1992 but had only bought a few extra reference works beyond my base package. Now I'm on the website all the time looking for more things I want to buy and making a list to email my sales rep about.

I still buy products via the website once in a while, when I needed something right now and can't wait until business hours. The convenience and instantaneous results are worth paying a bit more for.

I think Logos knows what they are doing. It seems like good business to establish long-term relationships with customers who will keep coming back for more. Not only do they reward us for our loyalty, but we also reward them by continuing to be good customers. It's a win-win situation.

Posts 334
Paul Strickert | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 29 2010 4:42 PM

If I may ask, Rosie, how much $ do you estimate you've saved by going through a sales rep?

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