Why less women?

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tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 23 2010 3:21 AM

Rene Atchley:

Dan what is there to say about why or why a particular seminary has or will carry Logos product in its franchise book store. I have speculated that it might have something to do with the explicit and implicit worldview that Logos presents in its selection of ebook products sold through that distribution chain.  It could be just as well that the no one in the Bible study depts. have decided to go digital or few can afford the product price points even with a 40% discount.  However, none of these speculations on my part get to the larger point that I have tried to make about a problematic theological worldview which almost seems to be dismissed with a sort of all is well in toyland  corporate cultural response. 

On one hand I sense that selling ebook bible products is a ministry with all the normative Christian worldviews filling bible study tools, theological tomes, and all the other products that can be used in ministry.  On the other hand I sense in conversations that Logos is just another capitalist ebook producer pumping out whatever products some customer on the other end of the chain will buy.  I don't see how Logos can hold both a secular and sacred view of the ebook producing and distribution process at the same time although in a post-modern world I suppose it is possible.  Regardless of which view one takes (or all the views depending on ones perspective) Logos has some normative values as you point out in the diversity of theological perspectives.  In the case of selling products to women one may ask what was the core worldview values and core demographic that helped Logos rise to the top of the corporate ebook distribution mountain?  What kind of products were being sold?  What position on women in ministry were implicit and explicit in those early products?  Has the product line included or will include political works from a Feministh perspective?

I think Dan that contemplating how many female sales reps, or how many pastors are females, and attending women conferences entirely misses the point of a Feminist critique of the institutional Church and associated ministries.  Indeed Logos is producing top quality products that serve a market niche and need for many individuals in and around the Church.  I don't believe asking women why they don't like your new interface, or why they dont have more money, or why they dont like technology will lead to an answer that help Logos in the long run expand market share.  IMO the issue is a theological one that can be overcome with some changes in product selection, content, and distribution...but that is just my opinion.  I do think my contribution here is just about run out.

Rene, while I do not agree with you 100% (example, I do believe the UI is very important), I think you nailed it with your statement "the issue is a theological one."

 

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 23 2010 4:39 AM

MJ. Smith:

Jack Caviness:

How does this show evangelical bias?

My take on this is based on the observation that psalm-scripture based prayer is more common in liturgical churches and intentional communities. Mennonites are a counter-example. These prayer traditions are opened ended and would never think that entering God's response would end the prayer. I know a number of people would like scriptural links for a variety of reasons. But the combination of no links and answers closing off the prayer implies a prayer style quite unlike the psalm-scripture based approach. I'm not proposing that prayer lists be converted into prayer books. I'm suggesting that the prayer lists are not designed for the open ended prayer requests that the psalm-scripture based prayer encourages.

Thank you for the explanation. I also have open-ended prayers which I never mark as answered. However, if I pray for someone who is undergoing surgery, that prayer does have a terminal date—one way or another.

You are correct that most evangelicals do not pray the Psalms, which is our loss.

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 23 2010 4:48 AM

Bill Coley:
There was a season in my faith journey when I probably resembled the stereotypical liberal you describe. I no longer do, but I know beyond doubt that there are many of us who still that bill (often in the name of reason and intellectualism) -- their actions are sinful. From encounters with conservatives, I'm confident there are among them judgmental types who condemn people to hell for failing to ascribe to their particular brand of orthodoxy (often in the name of "what the Bible says") -- their actions, too, are sinful.

I am probably not your garden-variety Fundamentalist. I consider myself to be a Biblical Fundamentalist in the tradition of The Fundamentals. Most who call themselves Fundamentals today are cultural and social fundamentalists. One of my previous professors reportedly stated that "If you are not fighting with someone, you are not a true Fundamentalist." When I heard that, my first thought was "What every happened to Romans 12:18." 

Bill Coley:
judgmental types who condemn people to hell for failing to ascribe to their particular brand of orthodoxy

Fortunately, it is God who makes such decisions, not me. My task is to proclaim the Word to the best of my God-given abilities.

Well, it is time to climb down off my soap box.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 23 2010 9:12 AM

MJ. Smith:

Matthew C Jones:
Because if all children heard godly instruction from their parents, we would have little need for most youth ministries, reform schools and rehabilitation programs.

My first reaction to this was a not very polite. By far the largest contribution to reform school and rehabilitation centers it made by abusive parents or friends - physical and/or psychological abuse.

I understated my point. I did say "godly instruction."  But rather than say "heard" I should have said "receive" thus including the living example of righteous, God-serving parents. My attack, if you will, was directed towards the parents in modern society who don't teach their children. The safety-nets were constructed because of the parent's failures. The children are the victims of the adult's ignorance or willful disobedience.

My own mother was another of those shining examples of a godly mom. Any crimes & misdemeanors I Angel or my siblings Devil Devil Devil may accomplish are in spite of Mom's efforts.

If I understand Nancy correctly, Logos would help a lot of women by adding resources they can practically apply to their current ministries, whatever that may be For some it may include pastoral helps and doctrinal materials. To the vast majority of women in my IFB church that would require home schooling helps, home management, lay counseling (Jay Adams' Competent To Counsel ), and "help meet" helps. In other words: Logos needs to keep up the production of new resources. And I cannot think of a better way to prioritize that than the current Community Pricing, Pre-Pubs, and suggestion programs.

An aside: I have noticed the women in my church prefer to surround themselves with things of beauty. So the suggestions to add pastels & Mac style user interface to Logos are not that far fetched. My wife doesn't care how the Logos program does what it does. She just wants it to work. (I doubt she will ever be a power user.)

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Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 23 2010 9:39 AM

Matthew C Jones:
She just wants it to work

A very good point.  L4 was released a year ago.  It was released as a final, but was really a beta and has been in beta for a year.  I am sure to get jumped on for this statement, but that is okay.  Logos knows it is true.  That does not mean it was not a good business decision to have released it a year ago.  But it has been frustrating to use for many for the past 12 months.

Looking back on how much I have spent on the program, if I did it all over again, I would say it was not worth the price tag.  The program in great.  It has revolutionized my studying etc.  But the cost factor involved would have kept me far away from it as there are cheaper ways to accomplish Bible study.

I would again offer a few suggestions to the main question asked on this thread:

1.  Change the license agreement to allow family licenses that, when the children grow up, they can keep their copy of the program. If you are going to give deep discounts to seminary students, why not give a family license that will offer an incentive for a child to grow up on the program and then want to purchase more resources as an adult one day.  Without this, the program is not worth the money in my opinion.

2.  As the so called Christian Community (or is it the world?)  has insanely created a Bible for every subgroup (women's Bible, single's BIble, Men's Bible, Reformed BIble, Teen Bible, Atheist Bible, the Bible for those who are divorced, etc), why not create a Women's Logos package? Homeschooler's logos package?  Liberal's package?  Fundamentalist package?  Sunday School package?   Women in ministry package? etc...

3.  Stick to a business model and do not change it so radically.  I feel for the man who purchased PBB and a month later, L4 came out.  Let's face it.  the business model in L3 was completely different than L4.  I do not think it is wise to change the business model so radically every 5 years.  This is one reason why Bob's post on license issues posted 1.5 years ago means nothing to me.  It is not an official policy decision.  Anytime Logos wants, they can slam the door in the face of families and point to official policy...one user license is what the product is for.  It is also why it is disconcerting that there is not official policy on the website (that I am aware of) which states how much it would cost to transfer your license to someone else (sibling for example) when a person with a license dies. 

4.  The library is huge.  The way to organize it is still not easy.  Logos has yet to provide with the program, built in collections for example.  Collections based on companies etc.  We have to do this manually.  Not very easy for the average joe.

5.  No user manual.  You have to pay with time and more money to get instructions on how to use the program (beyond the basics).  The model Logos has should be reconsidered.  How frustrating to pay HUGE amounts of money for an elite program, and then find out you have to pay more money and TIME to get detailed instructions.  I am sure this puts off many men.  I think it is a no brainer that it puts off a lot (not all) of women. 

This thread has generated a lot of good ideas I think for the folks at Logos to consider.  Unfortunately these ideas might be buried amidst hijacks and other posts unrelated to the original question.

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 23 2010 10:06 AM

 

Mark:
It is also why it is disconcerting that there is not official policy on the website (that I am aware of) which states how much it would cost to transfer your license to someone else (sibling for example) when a person with a license dies. 

Hi Mark

Not to take away from the rest of your post but I believe that the policy on transfering a licence is covered in the EULA - http://www.logos.com/ArticleViewer/2090 under the section "Transfers"

Graham

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Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 23 2010 11:14 AM

Graham

Thank you for pointing that out.

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Paul Golder | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 23 2010 12:31 PM

Dan Pritchett:
We have a Bible Study Magazine that is written by roughly 50% women writers and 50% male writers.

I don't believe that the diversity efforts of BSM can in anyway be factored in. Primarily due to the fact that so much deliberate effort has been implemented in order to disassociate BSM form Logos software. As in:

http://community.logos.com/forums/p/227/3086.aspx#3086

 

"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 23 2010 8:19 PM

Mark:

Matthew C Jones:
She just wants it to work

A very good point.  L4 was released a year ago.  It was released as a final, but was really a beta and has been in beta for a year.  I am sure to get jumped on for this statement, but that is okay.  Logos knows it is true.  That does not mean it was not a good business decision to have released it a year ago.  But it has been frustrating to use for many for the past 12 months.

I need to clarify my quote above. My wife just wants Logos to keep working the way it has been for her. She knows nothing of beta bugs, Mac versions, notes, PBBs, or any of the subjects of regular debate. She is quite content and is increasingly pleased with Logos 4 as she learns new things the program can do.

So a paraphrase of the original quote would be; "My wife wants simplicity, ease of use, a user interface that is intuitive (to her) , and a fast booting or resume to access it quicker."  As far as the original thread topic goes; My wife has used online social networking for several years but just started using the computer for Bible study last Spring.  Time & simplicity is what she wants.

 

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tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 24 2010 6:04 AM

Mark:
2.  As the so called Christian Community (or is it the world?)  has insanely created a Bible for every subgroup (women's Bible, single's BIble, Men's Bible, Reformed BIble, Teen Bible, Atheist Bible, the Bible for those who are divorced, etc), why not create a Women's Logos package? Homeschooler's logos package?  Liberal's package?  Fundamentalist package?  Sunday School package?   Women in ministry package? etc...

5.  No user manual.  You have to pay with time and more money to get instructions on how to use the program (beyond the basics).  The model Logos has should be reconsidered.  How frustrating to pay HUGE amounts of money for an elite program, and then find out you have to pay more money and TIME to get detailed instructions.  I am sure this puts off many men.  I think it is a no brainer that it puts off a lot (not all) of women.

Yes

Posts 54
Rick Williams | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 24 2010 9:34 AM

I'll not make the errror of drawing any general conclusions, but I have asked my wife the very same question when I see her avoid Logos in preference for a print edition of a resource. 

FWIW my wife is a RN of 36 years, 16 years in Intensive Care and now the infusion guru for a 680 bed hospital group.  She is not technology adverse, you can't be when you're working with complicated life support systems that can kill someone as quickly as they can keep someone alive.  She is also the head of the Health Ministery at our church.  That said though, she finds the extent and complexity of Logos 4 daunting.  She also doesn't like reading material on a computer.

That said though, she recently purchased an I-Pad and has been reading a lot of the Logos resources on it.  There is probably a clue in there somewhere, but it sounds as though it's time for some focus groups to answer these questions in a less subjective manner. 

Posts 376
Dan Sheppard | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 24 2010 2:16 PM

 

Just thinking about the phrase "less women". 

Technically, "less" describes quantity, as in weight.

"Fewer" indicates a reduction in number.

So it should be "fewer women".

 

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Paul Golder | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 24 2010 2:42 PM

Dan Sheppard:

 

Just thinking about the phrase "less women". 

Technically, "less" describes quantity, as in weight.

"Fewer" indicates a reduction in number.

So it should be "fewer women".

 

Nice catch Dan. Actually it was attempt at a play-on-words on my part. Less (when used to modify a number) should be used with singular 'mass' nouns (as in something that can not be counted individually.) With my point being that on paper Logos can count the exact number of female licensees, even though in reality there is no way of knowing how many women actually use Logos.

less \ˈles\ adjective
comparative of 1LITTLE [Middle English, partly from Old English l∓s, adverb & noun; partly from lǣssa, adjective; akin to Old Frisian lēs less] before 12th century

  1      : constituting a more limited number or amount 〈less than three〉 〈less than half done〉

Inc Merriam-Webster, Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary., Eleventh ed. (Springfield, Mass.: Merriam-Webster, Inc., 2003).

"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."

Posts 176
Rob | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 26 2010 9:32 AM

Well you know that men are prone to put off their Christmas shopping till the last minute....

I couldn't rightly purchase my books before Christmas because they would download immediately.

So Christmas morning with the kids still excited about their presents, I purchased and downloaded my Logos presents.

Logos is man-friendly!

 

 

  

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Harbor Linda | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 27 2010 2:26 PM

I've been hearing about Logos for over a year from our church. I phoned them (Logos) today to ask a software capability question and was treated quite rudely. After reading this thread it makes me wonder.........what if my husband had called and asked the same question?

I am looking for software that has many of the features of Logos (with all the research/resource tools), but the simple addition I want is to #1 be able to turn off and on Strong's numbers #2 to be able to take "in-line notes".  If I'm reading and come across the word 'love' I want to be able to click on the Strong's number and see if it's agape or phileo, etc and then be able to enter it in parenthesis into the text. I realize Logos will allow me to insert a footnote but I don't always want to have to click-and-go. I would be thrilled to start inserting original words into electronic text and be able to save it.  I would think this would be a great feature for Precept students as well.

Am I asking too much? Maybe us women just want more than the men.Wink

Something like this, Gen 1:1 In the beginning 7225 God 430 ('elohiym ) created 1254 853 the heaven 8064 and 853 the earth 776

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 27 2010 2:48 PM

You'll definitely get more answers. But relative to each question: I've not experienced the behavior you mention. Indeed one time my frustration was met with an invitation from the CEO to call him personally (which I did). So if I had to guess, the individual was having a rough day with all the big Logos sales. Regarding #1, the Logos interlinears are line oriented such that you can have english on top, greek/hebrew below, the grammar below that etc. And you can change the ordering (which on top). They have another way which also puts the lines at the bottom of the window. So 'turning Strongs on/off' is just a matter of turning that line on or off. You don't have the numbers in-line with the text as in your example. #2 You were correct ... you can add a note but not literally insert text. My understanding is the tagging / highlighting is linked directly to the text positioning. It would be nice though to have a 'user line' in the interlinear but that's probably a dream. Anyway, I hope you'll give Logos another chance ... the don't like to let people down.


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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 27 2010 2:52 PM

 

Hi Harbor - and welcome to the forums.

Harbor Linda:
but the simple addition I want is to #1 be able to turn off and on Strong's numbers

Something like this, Gen 1:1 In the beginning 7225 God 430 ('elohiym ) created 1254 853 the heaven 8064 and 853 the earth 776

You can turn on and off Strong's numbers by using the Reverse Interlinear feature - you can also customise this to show the original text as well

Taking your example I have turned on Strong's numbers and "Manuscript (transliterated)" and I get the following:

To change the reverse interlinear settings click on the "Display" button at the top of the panel and select the options you want:

For more information about how to use this feature please see http://wiki.logos.com/Reverse-Interlinear$2fInterlinear__Bibles

(There are some restrictions in "cover" in that - for example - the NIV has currently only get the New Testament in RI format not the Old Testament but there are a number of translations with complete RI capability.)

The Strong's entries are hoverable and clickable to take you to more information.

In terms of taking notes, you can take notes and associate it with a verse or passage but it isn't "inline" - it is kept as a "parallel" resource.For an introduction to Notes please see http://wiki.logos.com/Notes

On the front page of the Logos wiki - http://wiki.logos.com/Logos_Bible_Software_Wiki - you will see references to a number of videos produced by Mark Barnes. Numbers 5 & 10 will give you more information about Reverse Interlinears and Notes respectively.

Hope this helps.

If you need more detailed information I would suggest that you start a new thread and I am sure people will try and help.

Graham

Posts 56
David Langer | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 27 2010 9:34 PM

Trust me, this is not a gender issue.  After my question was rebuffed, I directly contacted Bob (Bob@logos.com) he sent a reply apologizing for this and gave me the solution his customer support would not and could not (didn't use the program said the CS person) give.  Logos rapidly expanded its customer support reps after Logos4 rollout and not all of those hires seem to have knowledge of the program and some lack in people skills.

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Harbor Linda | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 28 2010 4:03 PM

Thanks everyone.Smile  So, I really like the feature with having the original text above (or below) - so one problem solved and questioned answered - thank you, but 'in-line' notes just seems like such a natural thing to me - especially while you are learning original languages.  It's great to see the word 'agape' in text below the word 'love', but if I don't know what agape means then I have to click and look it up.  Now, this is fine, I would expect so much - but once I read the meaning I want to be able to write that meaning in parenthesis in 'my' Bible.

This seems like a no brainer, word processing is such an easy, easy feature.  If Logos can insert a number - linked to a footnote, it seems like an easy programing upgrade to be able to insert text.

 

Any one know of any programs that do this?


Precept people would be all over this software if it did. (I'm not in Precepts, but I'd love the feature.)

Linda

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 28 2010 4:11 PM

Harbor Linda:
This seems like a no brainer, word processing is such an easy, easy feature. 

Scarcely - think of the additional complexity when there is an upgrade to the base resource; think of the additional complexity of the search for the "My Content" segment.

You can always paste your reading material section by section into Notes where you would be able to insert inline notes.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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