Denominations

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Blair Laird | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 22 2010 5:47 PM

Joshua Garcia:

Is Calvary Chapel considered a denomination? I really enjoy their style. Verse by verse, chapter by chapter, book by book expository preaching.

Isn't Greg Laurie from this church?

Calvary Chapel is a non denomination church. Most people would think because of the growth of C.C that it is now a denomination. I'm  not to sure what the qualifications are to be considered a denomination, but according to the movement it is non denomination ( I believe this is to be more inclusive). C.C are not baptist, although when I started Bible College they required me to purchase Bible Knowledge Commentary. They are not pentecostal, although they do believe in the gifts of the Spirit, and pastor Chuck came from a 4square background.

Greg Laurie came from C.C but now he run's Harvest Christian Fellowship. This means he is affiliated with C.C but not a Calvary Chapel, at least that is my understanding. I believe the same is true for Jon Courson.

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Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 22 2010 6:12 PM

Blair Laird:
Calvary Chapel is a non denomination church. Most people would think because of the growth of C.C that it is now a denomination. I'm  not to sure what the qualifications are to be considered a denomination, but according to the movement it is non denomination ( I believe this is to be more inclusive). C.C are not baptist, although when I started Bible College they required me to purchase Bible Knowledge Commentary. They are not pentecostal, although they do believe in the gifts of the Spirit, and pastor Chuck came from a 4square background.

A denomination is just a name for category of things (like a denomination of currency).  Likewise, a religious denomination is just a name for a religious subgroup that operates under a common name, tradition, and identity.  It doesn't imply that there is an overarching authority structure, although some people use the term that way.  For example, Southern Baptists I know like to consider themselves to a part of an association rather than a denomination, because they want to emphasize the lack of a central authority and the independence of each church, thereby attaching a meaning to the word denomination that it doesn't always have.  The Handbook of Denominations in the US is filled with non-denominational churches.

The fact that Calvary Chapel churches do self-identify as Calvary Chapel churches and have similar practices seems to me to be a denomination in the classic sense, but not in the authority sense.

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Posts 421
Scott S | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 22 2010 8:01 PM

MJ. Smith:
Last survey I've seen gives the Lutherans credit for using the most Scripture in their services.

Did the survey indicate which Lutheran Synod -- ELCA, LCMS, or WELS?

Thanks in advance.

Posts 421
Scott S | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 22 2010 8:38 PM

Kaye Anderson:
you can understand my care in choosing a good, Christian church to make friends and progress spiritually.

Kaye, a few questions I would recommend for prospective churches:

  . What does it take to become a member and what is expected of members to remain in good standing?

  . What beliefs must a member subscribe to?

  . Are there activities that you must either do or refrain from?

  . Are there activities within the church that are reserved for members and visitors do not participate in?

Also, don't give too much weight in your evaluation to the Christmas service.  For many churches that may not be a representative time, because the people you sit next to are more likely to be the "I go to church once a year whether I need it or not" types, and the service may have a different emphasis than the norm.

I enjoy visiting churches. It an adventure for me, and one of the things I look forward to when travelling. I hope you enjoy it also.

Posts 114
James Matichuk | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 22 2010 10:49 PM

Jack Caviness:

Robert Pavich:
I'm thinking of that horrid cartoon/tract stuff by a person that shall remain nameless.

No one would ever guess who this could be!  Geeked

Robert Pavich:
there is no call for that vile junk.

Amen Yes

 

And here I was going to suggest his work for Logos to publish Devil

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 23 2010 2:55 AM

Scott S:
Did the survey indicate which Lutheran Synod -- ELCA, LCMS, or WELS

I do not know and have not heard of any study concerning this, but I (being a Lutheran) have stated that I would compare the amount of scripture in our worship service to any other service.  You should always hear two lessons, a psalm, and a Gospel reading every Sunday (some exceptions due occur).  On top of this, our liturgy comes straight from scripture.

I do not know the liturgy that the WELS uses, but I am going to take a SWAG and say that it is the same as ELCA and LCMS.  The ELCA and LCMS basically have the same service (including the liturgy).

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 23 2010 4:25 AM

James Matichuk:

Jack Caviness:

Robert Pavich:
I'm thinking of that horrid cartoon/tract stuff by a person that shall remain nameless.

No one would ever guess who this could be!  Geeked

Robert Pavich:
there is no call for that vile junk.

Amen Yes

And here I was going to suggest his work for Logos to publish Devil

That would be fine as long as I do not have to own it. I hope Logos publishes a wide variety of religious literature, but there is already much that I have no interest in owning. Someone may want that particular material, and I would not deny them the privilege.

Posts 218
Dennis Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 23 2010 5:16 AM

It's all semantics. If you have a bunch of people meeting at different locations all claiming to be affiliated with a particular group or fellowship doesn't that technically make you a denomination whether you consider it that or not.

Posts 611
Graham Owen | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 23 2010 5:48 AM

MJ. Smith:

fgh:

Robert Pavich:
I'm not sure I'd use the word "hatred"

Then you haven't seen (or heard) some of the anti-Catholic stuff out there....

Robert,  I have to agree with fgh here. and Catholics are not the only ones I've seen  or heard targeted.

A key thing in amongst this is ignorance, I never ceased to be amazed at the number of people who perpetuate a false view of the Catholics and others based on third and fourth hand, unsubstantiated information. Personally I have no problem with others challenging my denominational beliefs but I do expect them to do this based on a knowledge of what we actually teach not on what someone else says we teach. I try and practice this as well by reading materials from other denominations to be clear on what they say. Another issue is basing our whole opinion of a denomination on an encounter with a single individual from that denomination. Given the breadth of Catholicism, Anglicanism and others this ia dangerous practice and causes unnecessary division.

I guess for all of us the spiritualisation of all of this relates to the concept of heresy:

heresy (ˈhɛrǝsɪ) n, pl -sies 1 a an opinion or doctrine contrary to the orthodox tenets of a religious body or church b the act of maintaining such an opinion or doctrine 2 any opinion or belief that is or is thought to be contrary to official or established theory 3 belief in or adherence to unorthodox opinion [c13: from Old French eresie, from Late Latin haeresis, from Latin: sect, from Greek hairesis a choosing, from hairein to choose]

Collins English dictionary. 2006 (8th ed., Complete & unabridged ed.). Glasgow: HarperCollins.

I guess everyone of us, no matter what denomination, would consider our theological position orthodox so by definition most other denominations are heretics! As a pentecostal I clearly disagree with a cessationists on the continuation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit but I would also disagree with other "pentecostals" if they question the deity of Christ. Personally I am more likely to consider the latter to be teaching heresy than the former probably because personally I can see why people have doubts about the continuation of gifts from a Biblical/historical perspective whereas I cannot see how anyone could read the Bible and deny that Jesus is God.

Based on this thread I think I may be about to take a fresh look at how heresy should be defined specifically from a Biblical perspective.

God Bless

Graham

Pastor - NTCOG Basingstoke

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 23 2010 7:40 AM

Many professing Christians seem to suffer from an Elijah Complex (I'm the only one you have left, Lord 1 Kings 19:10).

Graham Owen:
I guess everyone of us, no matter what denomination, would consider our theological position orthodox so by definition most other denominations are heretics! As a pentecostal I clearly disagree with a cessationists on the continuation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit but I would also disagree with other "pentecostals" if they question the deity of Christ. Personally I am more likely to consider the latter to be teaching heresy than the former probably because personally I can see why people have doubts about the continuation of gifts from a Biblical/historical perspective whereas I cannot see how anyone could read the Bible and deny that Jesus is God.

I would consider that to be a healthy perspective. I am a cessationist, and I agree with you here. I am reading The Foundation of Pentecostal Theology.

Graham Owen:
Based on this thread I think I may be about to take a fresh look at how heresy should be defined specifically from a Biblical perspective.

Sounds like a most interesting study. Unfortunately, sharing your conclusions would probably violate forum guidelines.

Posts 611
Graham Owen | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 23 2010 8:11 AM

Jack Caviness:
Sounds like a most interesting study. Unfortunately, sharing your conclusions would probably violate forum guidelines.

Do you remember shared note files in Logos 3?

One thing that stands out for me when reading the Bible is that it does not so much tell us how to live as tell us how to live together. Whereas these days people are ready to start a new Church or form a new denomination it seems to me that the early Church worked hard to stay together. In many ways unity in the moderm Church is passive rather than active.

Jack Caviness:
I am reading The Foundation of Pentecostal Theology.

I like this book it is a good "generic" pentecostal theology.

 

God Bless

Graham

Pastor - NTCOG Basingstoke

Posts 1365
Ben | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 23 2010 8:45 AM

"A key thing in amongst this is ignorance, I never ceased to be amazed at the number of people who perpetuate a false view of the Catholics and others based on third and fourth hand, unsubstantiated information."

 

Indeed. Krister Stendahl, Luthern Bishop of Stocholm as well as Dean of the Harvard Divinity School before he passed away recently, formulated 3 rules of inter-religious dialogue and study, something like this.

(1) When you are trying to understand another religion, you should ask the adherents of that religion for their understanding of it, not its enemies (i.e. don't dictate to people what they believe based on 3rd hand hostile sources.)

(2) Don't compare your best to their worst (i.e. Mother Teresa to AlQaida is not a fair comparison between Christianity and Islam)

(3) Leave room for "holy envy." (By this Stendahl meant that you should be willing to recognize elements in the other religious tradition or faith that you admire and wish could, in some way, be reflected in your own religious tradition or faith.)

 

 

"The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected."- G.K. Chesterton

Posts 421
Scott S | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 23 2010 8:55 AM

tom collinge:

I do not know the liturgy that the WELS uses, but I am going to take a SWAG and say that it is the same as ELCA and LCMS.  The ELCA and LCMS basically have the same service (including the liturgy).

Thanks Tom.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 24 2010 9:37 PM

Scott S:
Did the survey indicate which Lutheran Synod -- ELCA, LCMS, or WELS?

I don't think it did

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 421
Scott S | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 25 2010 2:30 PM

Ben:

(2) Don't compare your best to their worst (i.e. Mother Teresa to AlQaida is not a fair comparison between Christianity and Islam)

A good set of principles.  Although the example for #2 doesn't work because it suggests that Al-Qaida types don't have Islamic theology right. Scholars argue they do.

Osama bin Laden is a better exegete of Qur'anic war verses than the moderate scholars. The reason that most Muslims don't want to be involved with terrorism is that they just want to do well in life and raise a family, so they ignore the war verses and focus on the teachings of tolerance, so they can pursue their own life interests.  -- This according to a missionary of twenty years in an Islamic country, who completed the work for a PhD in theology at an Islamic University.  (And instructor for TEDS course in 2008: Islam and Christianity.)

There is confusion about which teachings to follow because of the Islamic law of Abrogation, where verses are revealed to cancel instructions in other verses given just a few years earlier. This provision is specifically provided for by a number of verses in the Qur'an itself, for  example: Baqara 2:106.....If we abrogate any verse or cause it to be forgotten, We replace it by a better or a similar one.

According to Professor Samir Khalil Samir, S.J., the problem is that there is no consensus about which verses abrogate others. This leads to two legitimate ways to read the Qur'an. When Islamic terrorists kill woman and children in the name of Islam, there is no basis to tell them they are not authentic Muslims, only "Your reading of Islam is not ours."  Samir Khalil Samir, S.J., "111 Questions on Islam", pages 62-71.

http://www.ignatius.com/Products/OHQI-P/111-questions-on-islam.aspx

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CEDRAC

 

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 25 2010 4:57 PM

Scott S:

A good set of principles.  Although the example for #2 doesn't work because it suggests that Al-Qaida types don't have Islamic theology right. Scholars argue they do.

Osama bin Laden is a better exegete of Qur'anic war verses than the moderate scholars. The reason that most Muslims don't want to be involved with terrorism is that they just want to do well in life and raise a family, so they ignore the war verses and focus on the teachings of tolerance, so they can pursue their own life interests.  -- This according to a missionary of twenty years in an Islamic country, who completed the work for a PhD in theology at an Islamic University.  (And instructor for TEDS course in 2008: Islam and Christianity.)

There is confusion about which teachings to follow because of the Islamic law of Abrogation, where verses are revealed to cancel instructions in other verses given just a few years earlier. This provision is specifically provided for by a number of verses in the Qur'an itself, for  example: Baqara 2:106.....If we abrogate any verse or cause it to be forgotten, We replace it by a better or a similar one.

According to Professor Samir Khalil Samir, S.J., the problem is that there is no consensus about which verses abrogate others. This leads to two legitimate ways to read the Qur'an. When Islamic terrorists kill woman and children in the name of Islam, there is no basis to tell them they are not authentic Muslims, only "Your reading of Islam is not ours."  Samir Khalil Samir, S.J., "111 Questions on Islam", pages 62-71.

Scott, I think this post gets very close (if not stepping over)  the forum guidelines.  

I believe what you said here can be said about Christianity (hence why we have so many denominations) or any other faith.  Islam does not have the corner market about having more than one understanding of sacred text.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 25 2010 9:51 PM

Scott S:
Qur'anic war verses than the moderate scholars.

I don't believe that one can consider the war verses outside the context of the People of the Book verses. I don't see the theological issues that Islam deals with as the much different than dealing with Psalm 137:8-9 ... which somehow when I pray the Psalms I find a bit uncomfortable.

I concur with Tom that we are skirting far too close to the appropriate boundaries for the forum.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 56
David Langer | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 27 2010 11:09 PM

I know this is now past Christmas but a great resource is the Handbook of Denominations in the United States. Currently this is not in Logos format, but can be purchased as a (gasp) book at Amazon.com (http://www.amazon.com/Handbook-Denominations-United-States-12th/dp/0687057841/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1293519972&sr=1-1) for only $12.99.  May the Lord bless your search for a church to grow and mature in.

 

Posts 2941
Tes | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 29 2010 3:29 AM

For me the answer is where Jesus Christ is worshiped in Spirit and truth.Jeusus's central masssage was the Kingdom of God,I believe in this packet, I renounce any split of this packet,what ever it is ,I hate extremity.Some go to the healing extreme,some to prosperity,some to family and so on.These are blessings ,which come as a result of putting one's faith on the blesser.The Word of God tells us first to seek the Kingdom of God and His righteousness,all others are going to be added as the Lord wills.So my priority is as I have said it.I believe on all of the blessings,but more I believe the balance massage , and the Packet The Kingdom of God preached uncompromisable. If it is not clear I am ready to make it clear by the grace of God.

 

Blessings in Christ.

Posts 291
Kaye Anderson | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 7 2011 11:41 AM

Tes, I agree with you about extremity and I always appreciate your testimony.

To those who promised to pray for me in this, thank you!  I have found a church (less that three miles from my house!) where I already feel at home, with a pastor who seems to hold to the Word of God in his counseling and in expository preaching.  I've had tea with one of the members, attended a weekly prayer meeting and have a calendar full of chances to grow and to share my abilities with others.  I really appreciate anyone here who bowed a head or a knee to petition for my welfare.  I know it won't go unrewarded.

K

"But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry."  2 Timothy 4:5 (NASB)

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