Learning Biblical Greek and Hebrew

Page 2 of 3 (44 items) < Previous 1 2 3 Next >
This post has 43 Replies | 4 Followers

Posts 9946
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 10 2011 1:19 AM

MJ. Smith:

George Somsel:
The "snootiness" regarding Strong's is much more than simply "snootiness."  It represents a true difference in quality of resources.  Consider the differences between HALOT and Strong's ...

True, but I figure if you aren't comfortable finding a word in a dictionary, it doesn't matter much. It's like me claiming to read Chinese Buddhist texts while carrying around Fenn's 5000. (Fenn's used to be (and may still be) the standard beginners' Chinese-English dictionary - not exactly the dictionary for bronze insciptions or Buddhist texts If there ever was a language that justified numerical entries to help the beginner, Chinese is it.

You forget that you don't need to be able to find it in a dictionary with Logos -- click, click, it's there.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 26543
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 10 2011 1:46 AM

George Somsel:
You forget that you don't need to be able to find it in a dictionary with Logos -- click, click, it's there.

True ... but I have mixed feelings about that for beginners. I love it for supplemental reading - reading beyond the text book. But I also see a danger in terms of having more confidence in one's own reading before one really has the skill to evaluate the possibilities posed by difficulties - lexical, grammatical or syntactic.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 9946
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 10 2011 2:30 AM

MJ. Smith:

George Somsel:
You forget that you don't need to be able to find it in a dictionary with Logos -- click, click, it's there.

True ... but I have mixed feelings about that for beginners. I love it for supplemental reading - reading beyond the text book. But I also see a danger in terms of having more confidence in one's own reading before one really has the skill to evaluate the possibilities posed by difficulties - lexical, grammatical or syntactic.

Agreed, but I think you have enough gumption to be able to use that and still learn how to "look it up in the dictionary" at the same time.  If you have L3 on your computer yet, I'll send you a file I think you will be able to use since I never had to enter a product code for it.  It should give you a little fun trying to find some Hebrew words.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 93
painfree | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 10 2011 3:05 AM

Michael Huffman:

Having taken a traditional Greek class in Seminary, I find the DVD's a great help. I find traditional Greek classes (parsing charts, Dipthongs, etc.)  real waste of time. Because, as my most contemporary Greek professor told us (who had a Doctrate in language), in order for you to keep up with the memorization that the Greek Parsing charts mandates, you will have to continually review the parsing charts and most pastors (if they are like me) just do not have the time to do that. So, I find the DVDs to be very helpful, as far as, reminding me of things learned in seminary. It goes in pretty good detail of the parts of speech and how they effect Bible translation and interpretation.

They said that when you complete the DVD courses, you will have obtained (if you start with no prior knowledge), a three year class equivilant in knowledge. Others have said that it teaches you to use Greek and Hebrew with Logos; and that is true. But hey if you are like me I have too much money invested in Logos to go and use another software. So while I am using Logos, I might as well learn to use the Greek and Hebrew tools in Logos a little better.

On another note; however, it is priced WAY to high. I obtained mine during pre-pub for $199., but now I believe it is priced at 499. Is it helpful? Very much so. Is it priced over the top? Very much so. Only you can determine usage versus price. It does carry a 30 day mony back guarantee.

 +++++++++++++++++

I agree that it is priced way too high but by the same token, virtually all electronic media resources (of which Logos is one)  are as well.

Posts 15805
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 10 2011 10:09 PM

Jack Caviness:

Eric Williamson:
I know that this DVD series is supposed to help one get the most out of Logos in regards to using the original languages, but will it help me actually learn the languages?  

Having worked about half-way through the Hebrew videos, I would say the resource is oriented more toward Logos usage than learning the language. Dr Heiser does describe the function and meaning of the various grammatical units. I have found no information on word formation which is the part of the Hebrew language that I found to be most difficult.

L4 does the parsing for you, so I guess Dr Heiser did not consider that to be necessary for this series. I believe this series would help you use the language tools in Logos, but it would not help you read and interpret the Hebrew Bible outside of Logos.

I have not looked at the Greek videos, but I assume the same type of information is presented there. Good for L4 usage, but not much help with a print Bible.

Since Logos 4 handles parsing (via morphologically tagged resources), Greek videos assist with grammatical importance and insights.

Logos 4 has Clause Visualization resources that visually show grammatical relationship along with optional discourse analysis.

Logos wiki has http://wiki.logos.com/Visual_Filter with some Greek and Hebrew highlighting possibilities. 

Wiki http://wiki.logos.com/Extended_Tips_for_Highlighting_and_Visual_Filters#Examples_of_visual_filters has more extensive visual filter highlighting examples.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 143
T.P. Johnston | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 11 2011 1:46 PM

I am working through the Hebrew videos at present. They are indeed quite helpful in discovering what can be done (rather impressively) with Logos 4 resources. Dr. Heiser does cover some very basic Hebrew grammar, providing bare essentials to enable effectively utilizing Logos 4. It is very excellent that he encourages users to make their own observations of the text, using the Logos 4 tools and resources. What is not so helpful perhaps, is that sometimes illustrations reveal a subtle theological bias. On a couple of occasions, after examining the broader context and historical evidence, I've come to a different conclusion than Dr. Heiser does in his examples. I suppose the admonition given by the Bereans of old to "search the Scriptures ... and see whether these things are so" is definitely always in order, even when you're listening to a Hebrew scholar!

Posts 10556
Forum MVP
Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 11 2011 4:06 PM

T.P. Johnston:
What is not so helpful perhaps, is that sometimes illustrations reveal a subtle theological bias. On a couple of occasions, after examining the broader context and historical evidence, I've come to a different conclusion than Dr. Heiser does in his examples. I suppose the admonition given by the Bereans of old to "search the Scriptures ... and see whether these things are so" is definitely always in order, even when you're listening to a Hebrew scholar!

I am in complete agreement.

Posts 9946
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 11 2011 4:26 PM

T.P. Johnston:

I am working through the Hebrew videos at present. They are indeed quite helpful in discovering what can be done (rather impressively) with Logos 4 resources. Dr. Heiser does cover some very basic Hebrew grammar, providing bare essentials to enable effectively utilizing Logos 4. It is very excellent that he encourages users to make their own observations of the text, using the Logos 4 tools and resources. What is not so helpful perhaps, is that sometimes illustrations reveal a subtle theological bias. On a couple of occasions, after examining the broader context and historical evidence, I've come to a different conclusion than Dr. Heiser does in his examples. I suppose the admonition given by the Bereans of old to "search the Scriptures ... and see whether these things are so" is definitely always in order, even when you're listening to a Hebrew scholar!

I'm curious about what you consider to be his theological bias.  I don't have the set since I learned my Hebrew at least 3 years ago.  Wink

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 1145
William | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 11 2011 9:35 PM

George Somsel:
I'm curious about what you consider to be his theological bias.

me to.  i am slowly working through a grammer to learn the language

 

Posts 4764
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 14 2011 1:28 AM

George Somsel:

MJ. Smith:

David Paul:
I think there's a bit of snootiness behind the "Strong's sucks" mentality.

I agree with you. But not for the reasons you'd like. I don't know Greek or Hebrew. I figure that if I can't even read enough Greek to find a word alphabetically, I probably have zero basis for judging the validity of a definition. I say that having spent plenty of time deep in a dictionary which was alphabetic by root not word - think go, gone, gocart, went, begone ... all under a single entry. I liken Strongs to an Oxford English dictionary accessed by number ... so I go "Huh?' On the other hand, the group that is fond of Strongs is free to use it - no skin off my back.

The "snootiness" regarding Strong's is much more than simply "snootiness."  It represents a true difference in quality of resources.  Consider the differences between HALOT and Strong's illustrated in the screenshot below where one is only given glosses and the number of times it was thus translated in the AV whereas in HALOT the different uses are separated out with references which one can then check for one's self.

Granted.

Still, I have found occasions where, in my estimation, Strong's was right (i.e. had a definition for an entry that was correct) and HALOT was wrong (i.e. it did not have that definition anywhere in its much longer entry with its list of additional resources). I'm not saying that such is very often the case. I'm just saying Strong's isn't useless and worthless. In fact, for an on-the-run reference it is better than HALOT, which is so hobbled with info, much of it ultimately extraneous, that it can't muster anything beyond being "on-the-crawl". Still, whenever I am not convinced I'm getting the whole story from Strong's, then I consult HALOT. On occasion it has also had info that I considered to be uniquely accurate. They are both useful in their own way, is what I'm saying.

For what it's worth, George, I do agree that many people with limited knowledge misuse and abuse Strong's...but think that most of those would likely misuse HALOT as well. They just lack the skill set needed to use such resources in a legitimate fashion.

Posts 9946
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 14 2011 3:11 AM

David Paul:

For what it's worth, George, I do agree that many people with limited knowledge misuse and abuse Strong's...but think that most of those would likely misuse HALOT as well. They just lack the skill set needed to use such resources in a legitimate fashion.

The problem is that there is no way to avoid misuse and abuse of Strong's.  Strong's is a list of glosses for words with notation of the frequency of their use.  You might as well play "pin the tail on the donkey" with Strong's.  Whether you like a word in a particular context is the final determinant.  It's kind of a "Who's on first" situation where one person thinks it should be used one way while another thinks differently.  Why ?  Just because they like it there.  Perhaps based on some theological preference or, probably more frequently, that's the way their favorite translations renders it.  If that's what you're going to do, why bother to make any attempt to use the original language ?  You're still relying on the English translation.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 143
T.P. Johnston | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 14 2011 7:12 AM

Without starting a theological debate on the forum (that is certainly not its purpose), let me just say that while I've never met Dr. Heiser or communicated with him in any way, from the couple of examples I am recalling, there was a definite suggestion of Covenant/Replacement theology. That is certainly a very commonly held theological view. My point is that expressing that kind of view in teaching the Using Hebrew videos is not the most helpful thing. I've been a pastor for 40 years and picked up on it immediately. Others might adopt the conclusion simply because Dr. Heiser (a Hebrew scholar) said it without reaching their own conclusions. That was my point. And I do really appreciate Dr. Heiser encouraging his viewers to observe the text for themselves. They just need to do the same with regard to his conclusions in the examples he sets forth.

Posts 9946
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 14 2011 8:55 AM

T.P. Johnston:

Without starting a theological debate on the forum (that is certainly not its purpose), let me just say that while I've never met Dr. Heiser or communicated with him in any way, from the couple of examples I am recalling, there was a definite suggestion of Covenant/Replacement theology. That is certainly a very commonly held theological view. My point is that expressing that kind of view in teaching the Using Hebrew videos is not the most helpful thing. I've been a pastor for 40 years and picked up on it immediately. Others might adopt the conclusion simply because Dr. Heiser (a Hebrew scholar) said it without reaching their own conclusions. That was my point. And I do really appreciate Dr. Heiser encouraging his viewers to observe the text for themselves. They just need to do the same with regard to his conclusions in the examples he sets forth.

Specifics, please.  Generalized statements don't help.  I seriously doubt that he was making any theological point, but I'm willing to consider the possibility.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 143
T.P. Johnston | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 14 2011 12:51 PM

So sorry, George, it's been a while and I wish I could remember the specific video numbers and references. I do, however, remember Dr. Heiser specifically stating that the example was one with theological import. He then went on to make the point in general terms, as I recall, without identifying the theological category by name. I do recall that one of the examples was in one of the videos on Hebrew verbs.

Posts 386
MJD | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 15 2011 12:28 AM

Which L4 books does Dr Heiser use whilst teaching this course??

Posts 10556
Forum MVP
Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 15 2011 4:13 AM

Michael James:

Which L4 books does Dr Heiser use whilst teaching this course??

It has been a while since I watched, but I seem to remember "Biblical Hebrew Reference Grammar" and "Glossary of Morpho-Syntactic Database Terminology". He is the author of the latter one.

Posts 54
Rick Williams | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 15 2011 7:36 AM

It was Logos that prompted me to take formal classes in Greek and Hebrew and after taking 2 years of Greek and 1 and a half of Hebrew, the videos came out and I bought them on pre-pub.  Earlier in my life I had 4 years of Latin, the result of a rather esoteric secondary education.

For what my opinion is worth, the videos will do little to help you with the typical requirements of a Greek or Hebrew class which is largely alphabet, word form study etc.  That said, the videos are really designed to allow you do exegesis of original language text using the tools and resources available in Logos.  I think the claim that those tools put you on fairly even footing with someone having 3 years of formal language study for that purpose (exegesis) is probably correct but not in the ability to read text in the original Hebrew or Greek.  The tools take you to interpreting and understanding what is said bypassing the mechanical requirements of memorizing hundreds if not thousands of words and assoicated word ending forms. 

The vaslue of the video really depends on what you want out of original language study.  If it is just a matter of getting through the pro forma requirment for your degree, then I think the class requirments will keep you occupied.  But if you are wishing to take your understanding of the language past what you are willing to invest in formal language training, then that is another matter. 

I will say that personally I wasn't aware that the videos were now selling for $500.  I purchased them at a much lower price and honestly if they had been $500 they may have remained on my wish list, but likely never purchased. 

 

Posts 9946
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 15 2011 8:56 AM

Rick Williams:
Earlier in my life I had 4 years of Latin, the result of a rather esoteric secondary education.

You too ?  It's a rare high school that offers Latin today (or even when I was in HS.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 10556
Forum MVP
Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 15 2011 10:46 AM

George Somsel:
It's a rare high school that offers Latin today (or even when I was in HS.

I thought they taught in Latin then Geeked

Rick gave a good evaluation of this resource. I purchased mine on pre-pub for $169, and I consider them worth that, but I would not spend $500 for them.

Posts 9946
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 15 2011 11:46 AM

Jack Caviness:

I thought they taught in Latin then Geeked

Yes, Cicero was my major professor.  Many years later I took an advanced course in poetics from Martial.  Wink

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Page 2 of 3 (44 items) < Previous 1 2 3 Next > | RSS