A Gift to ALL Catholics *smile*

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Posts 77
K.J. | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 27 2011 1:05 PM

fgh:
If you want to "challenge the salesman", at least have the decency to challenge the OP, who made the sale, and not those completely innocent of that post!

By the time I entered the conversation, that challenge had been made. I saw no need to repeat it:

 

Silent Sam:
Why play the catholic card at all?   Why not just offer the gift to anyone who is interested? Why assume that "non catholics" would not appreciate great art? Dredging up a year-old inflammatory thread is not my idea of promoting peace.

And furthermore it's not so much that Milford was the one selling snake oil first hand, but rather, quoting a sales pitch that he had bought into.

 

Posts 8893
fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 27 2011 1:44 PM

K.J.:
If you were to start a similar thread and substitute the name of any denomination,

Milford wasn't using the name of a denomination, but a word from the Creed, a word which most Protestants would be offended to be denied, not to be called. 

K.J.:
what do you think the outcome would be?

Easy, I'm quite happy to be both catholic, orthodox and evangelical! As are Catholics and Orthodox everywhere, and, I would hope, most Protestants. 

K.J.:
By the time I entered the conversation, that challenge had been made. I saw no need to repeat it.

But you did see the need to attack Catholics and the Catholic Church?

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

Mac Pro OS 10.9.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 27 2011 1:47 PM

K.J.:
If you were to start a similar thread and substitute the name of any denomination, then try to sell the theory that everyone is part of that movement...like it or not, what do you think the outcome would be?

I believe the original post was espousing the unity of believers in one body. I don't think it was a denominational claim over everyone's souls.

The word "catholic" with a small "c" means universal. The vast majority of Christianity embraces this concept. I was shocked to learn a few years ago there are groups who believe in not in just a multiplicity of congregations, but in a multiplicity of Churches with a capital "C."  That is to say: a multiplicity of the bodies of Christ!  While I can not reconcile this theological view with my understanding of scriptures, I welcome those holding such views to the Logos forums. Who knows, with enough Bible study they may amend their views to be more closely aligned to mine  Big Smile.

 

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Posts 77
K.J. | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 27 2011 1:49 PM

fgh:
But you did see the need to attack Catholics and the Catholic Church?

I would disagree with that assessment. I do not attack the members of the organization. They are lambs to the slaughter. My issue is with the organization deceiving them, And any attempt to connect me with that organization.

Posts 77
K.J. | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 27 2011 2:04 PM

Matthew C Jones:
The word "catholic" with a small "c" means universal. The vast majority of Christianity embraces this concept.

I am not convinced that is the case. On what statistics do you base such a supposition? Even if the majority does hold that opinion, does that require the minority to accept their view...and be herded under that umbrella? Furthermore, it is the attempt to promote that theory that derailed the OP's original intent.

 

 Ex 23:2

You shall not follow the masses in doing evil, nor shall you testify in a dispute so as to turn aside after a multitude in order to pervert justice

NASU

 

Posts 1680
Jerry M | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 27 2011 2:06 PM

An appeal to all Catholics and Catholic defenders.  A fire will go out if you quit adding wood.  So please follow the example of our Savior and allow yourself to be wronged and hopefully this thread will die.

"For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power"      Wiki Table of Contents

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 27 2011 2:55 PM

K.J.:
And any attempt to connect me with that organization.

It is clear to me that you are unfamiliar with the concept of "one body of Christ."  Further discussion without a semantic common ground will be fruitless.

K.J.:
They are lambs to the slaughter. My issue is with the organization deceiving them,

An unsaved co-worker of mine was very adamant about his commitment not to accept "the mark of the beast" in the last days. I tried to explain to him it was not the refusal of the "666" that would save him, but the calling on the name of Jesus..

Likewise it is not the refusal to be a member of any denomination that gets you saved, but the calling on the name of Jesus.

How scary it will be for some to get to Heaven and discover there are some "Catholics" living there, purchased by the blood of the Lamb! Big Smile

1 John 4:15    1 John 4:19-21    1 John 5:1

No organization posted in this thread. Only people who have called on the name of Jesus.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 27 2011 3:16 PM

Brad Fry:
because she "was raised as a Campbellite

First, let's not hold Milford responsible for what Martha said. I have always been intrigued with why people part ways with their childhood spiritual upbringing. I am a great fan of Francis  A. Schaeffer. I was a bit surprised with his son Frank's move to Orthodox Christianity.  disclosure: I have been attending an IFB church since 1996.

I share the "Campbelitte" heritage with MJ, yourself, and about a dozen other forum regulars. My Bible college transcript sits in a file cabinet in Joplin, MO. (Hometown to College Press.)  My parents attended seminary in Cincinnati and were missionaries for the Independent Christian Church/Churches of Christ. Rich Mullins also attended Bible college there and felt it good to write a song called "Creed" Here is verse 3: (emphasis mine)

I believe in God the Father
Almighty Maker of Heaven and Maker of Earth
And in Jesus Christ His only begotten Son our Lord
I believe in the Holy Spirit
One Holy Church
The communion of Saints
The forgiveness of sin
I believe in the resurrection
I believe in a life that never ends

What do Martin Luther, Alexander Campbell, and the Wesley brothers have in common? None of them intended to start a denomination. They were only students of the Bible trying their best to be faithfully obedient.

Brad Fry:
But most importantly I want my faith to be from Jesus Christ through his Word. Logos Bible Software is a tool toward that aim. This forum is at its best when it is used for that purpose.

I wholeheartedly agree.

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Posts 77
K.J. | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 27 2011 3:22 PM

Matthew C Jones:
It is clear to me that you are unfamiliar with the concept of "one body of Christ

What is clear is that you are not qualified to judge what I am familiar with. The "Body of Christ" existed long before it was associated with the word "catholic"

Matthew C Jones:
How scary it will be for some to get to Heaven and discover there are some "Catholics" living there, purchased by the blood of the Lamb! Big Smile

NO !  That thought has never crossed my mind, or passed over my lips. The grass roots Catholic who is applying the information that they have, sincerely believing they are doing the will of God, will be judged accordingly.

 

Rom 2:14-16

For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16  on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

 

The ones who Will Not be there are the higher-ups in the "religious organizations" who knowingly deceive the flock.

 

 Matt 18:6

but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea. 

 

 

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 27 2011 4:01 PM

K.J.:
The grass roots Catholic who is applying the information that they have, sincerely believing they are doing the will of God, will be judged accordingly.

No to "Roman Catholics" but yes to "Romans catholics"?    I see , uh, I mean, I understand. (gotta avoid those Catholic terms you know. Surprise )

K.J.:
The ones who Will Not be there are the higher-ups in the "religious organizations" who knowingly deceive the flock.

caveat:     ....Offensive theological idea about to be stated.        Don't say I gave no warning.

The way I understand the whole redemption thing, there is no sin so great the blood of Jesus can not cover it.  If Adolph Hitler called upon the name of the Lord in his final hour, is God not able to save him? Jeffrey Dahmer called on the Lord before he died Is he in Heaven? Is God able to forgive TV evangelists who lie, steal & fornicate? What prevents the blood of the lamb from covering pompous church leaders and seminary graduates whatever their church affiliation?

The "BTK" serial killer happens to be Lutheran.  (This in no way denigrates the rest of the Lutherans.)  According to Martin Luther  all are saved by grace, even serial killers. He got that from reading the Bible. So I will assert that one's membership in a political party, economic class, race, criminal record, educational level, or even a religious membership roll does not preclude their salvation by the atoning sacrifice of our Lord Jesus.

 

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Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 27 2011 4:02 PM

K.J.:

Matthew C Jones:
The word "catholic" with a small "c" means universal. The vast majority of Christianity embraces this concept.

I am not convinced that is the case. On what statistics do you base such a supposition? Even if the majority does hold that opinion, does that require the minority to accept their view...and be herded under that umbrella? Furthermore, it is the attempt to promote that theory that derailed the OP's original intent.

 

 Ex 23:2

You shall not follow the masses in doing evil, nor shall you testify in a dispute so as to turn aside after a multitude in order to pervert justice

NASU

 

Polycarp, the bishop of Smyrna was martyred about 167 AD.  A letter from the church at Smyrna was circulated to Christians in other places.

διὰ τῆς ὑπομονῆς καταγωνισάμενος τὸν ἄδικον ἄρχοντα καὶ οὕτως τὸν τῆς ἀφθαρσίας στέφανον ἀπολαβών· σὺν τοῖς ἀποστόλοις καὶ πᾶσιν δικαίοις ἀγαλλιώμενος δοξάζει τὸν θεὸν καὶ πατέρα παντοκράτορα καὶ εὐλογεῖ τὸν κύριον ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦν Χριστόν, τὸν σωτῆρα τῶν ψυχῶν ἡμῶν καὶ κυβερνήτην τῶν σωμάτων ἡμῶν καὶ ποιμένα τῆς κατὰ τὴν οἰκουμένην καθολικῆς ἐκκλησίας.

By his endurance he defeated the unrighteous magistrate and so received the crown of immortality; now he rejoices with the apostles and all the righteous, and glorifies the almighty God and Father, and blesses our Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior of our souls and Helmsman of our bodies and Shepherd of the catholic church throughout the world.

Holmes, Michael William. The Apostolic Fathers : Greek Texts and English Translations, MPoly 19.2. Updated ed. Grand Rapids, Mich.: Baker Books, 1999.

Before Polycarp was martyred Ignatius, the bishop of Antioch was condemned to be thrown to the wild beasts in Rome.  On the journey to Rome he was able to meet with some of the bishops of the churches in Asia and then wrote to them.

ὅπου ἂν φανῇ ὁ ἐπίσκοπος, ἐκεῖ τὸ πλῆθος ἔστω, ὥσπερ ὅπου ἂν ᾖ Χριστὸς Ἰησοῦς, ἐκεῖ ἡ καθολικὴ ἐκκλησία. οὐκ ἐξόν ἐστιν χωρὶς τοῦ ἐπισκόπου οὔτε βαπτίζειν οὔτε ἀγάπην ποιεῖν· ἀλλʼ ὃ ἂν ἐκεῖνος δοκιμάσῃ, τοῦτο καὶ τῷ θεῷ εὐάρεστον, ἵνα ἀσφαλὲς ᾖ καὶ βέβαιον πᾶν ὃ πράσσετε.

Wherever ever the bishop appears, there let the congregation be; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the catholic church. It is not permissible either to baptize or to hold a love feast without the bishop. But whatever he approves is also pleasing to God, in order that everything you do may be trustworthy and valid.

Op cit, ISmyr, 8.2.

One more quotation:  "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor."

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 77
K.J. | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 27 2011 4:16 PM

Matthew C Jones:
there is no sin so great the blood of Jesus can not cover it.

No contest. You are totally missing the point. The sins that are committed unknowingly. ...Ones that happen because of misinformation will not keep anyone out of Heaven. They didn't know they were sins.

 

James 4:17

So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin. 

 

It is the ones who knowingly sin...or cause others to sin by deceiving them who must accept a harsher penalty.

 

 

Heb 10:26-28  For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,27  but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.   

 

 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 27 2011 4:25 PM

K.J.:
On what statistics do you base such a supposition?

I had vowed to stay out of this but as this is a question of fact - you may chose the source of statistics that you want. Add together the following groups: Church of the East, Orthodox, Catholic, Anglican, Lutheran, and at least most of the Methodists, Presbyterians and United Church of Christ ... I know I've left out several other "Protestant" groups where I think but am not certain use the Nicene Creed. Divide that number by the total number of Christians in the world. With most statistical sources on the web this comes out to 79-80%. But crunch the numbers for yourself.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 27 2011 4:45 PM

MJ. Smith:
I know I've left out several other "Protestant" groups where I think but am not certain use the Nicene Creed.

There are many churches that do not officially use the Nicene Creed but do acknowledge the Bible-based doctrines the creed contains.The specific "one holy church" point is held by:

  • The Southern Baptist Convention,
  • Independent Christian Church,/Church of Christ,
  • Congregationalist,
  • Pentecostal churches (AOG, 4 Square, Apostolic & Full-Gospel),
  • COGIC

Most accept local congregational autonomy in church polity but believe to be a Christian means you are part of the one "body of Christ" or "family of God" They view all true believers as brothers and sisters in Christ. Then they begin the litmus tests to determine who is a "true" Christian.

I still maintain the number who believe in one universal Church of true believers is much greater than 70~80%.

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Damian McGrath | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 27 2011 4:54 PM

K.J.:
The ones who Will Not be there are the higher-ups in the "religious organizations" who knowingly deceive the flock.

 

Seeing as I'm the only forum regular who is accordingly going to Hell, this very appropriate conversation can carry on....

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 27 2011 5:09 PM

K.J.:
It is the ones who knowingly sin...or cause others to sin by deceiving them who must accept a harsher penalty.

I generally agree with you but must that penalty necessarily be damnation?  The book of 1 John was written to believers who had already accepted Christ. In 1 John 1:7-10 states:

  • The blood of Jesus cleanses us from sin.
  • We all have sin that needs to be cleansed.
  • We are forgiven those sins by confession.
  • All who deny having sin are calling God a liar.

These are all written to Christians who have already applied the sacrifice. Christians sin after they get saved. Post conversion sin is avoidable but real.. Even our Weslyan friends will tell you, it happens. Check out  the Holiness Collection (8 vols.)  

When Jesus died for my sins I had not yet been born. His blood covers more than just my pre-conversion sins. It covers the last sin I will commit in my life. You have never met a Christian who never sinned after conversion. If a believer forfeits his salvation the first time he sins there will be no-one in Heaven but babies.

I'll leave it between you and your Bible how to handle the questions of indulgences, purgatory, works salvation, penance and the like. I've heard one (non-Catholic) old lady say the communion juice washes away her sins for the past week so she dare not die on a Saturday night. I myself will stick with 1 John 1:9 .

 

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Posts 171
Abi Gail | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 27 2011 5:11 PM

fgh:

George, George.. I was going to complement you for some of your posts here earlier today, and then you have to bring up islam and politics and destroy all the good you did. Shame!

Yes Totally uncalled for. Where are the forum guideline cops now?

 

~

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 27 2011 5:25 PM

Abi Gail:

fgh:

George, George.. I was going to complement you for some of your posts here earlier today, and then you have to bring up islam and politics and destroy all the good you did. Shame!

Yes Totally uncalled for. Where are the forum guideline cops now?

 

I guess you're it.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 89
Harbey Santiago | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 27 2011 5:51 PM

K.J.:

 

 

"By 1545 Rome was under the spell of a new austerity. Reform was on the rise. The immoralities of Paul’s younger days were no longer acceptable behavior. The pope’s new rigor was apparent in the institution of the Roman Inquisition and in the Index of prohibited books—works that any Catholic risked damnation by reading. All the books of the Reformers were listed, as well as Protestant Bibles. For a long time merely to possess one of these banned books in Spain was punishable by death. The Index was kept up to date until 1959 and was finally abolished by Pope Paul VI."

 

Shelley, B. L. (1995). Church history in plain language (Updated 2nd ed.) (274). Dallas, Tex.: Word Pub.

 

 

"Inquisition Roman Catholic tribunal for the investigation, prosecution, and punishment of unrepentent heretics. In the Scriptures, the only punishment for heresy was excommunication, and the early fathers disapproved of physical penalties. According to St. John Chrysostom, putting a heretic to death was in itself “an inexpiable crime.” After Christianity became the state religion, the Catholic Church found it possible to use the power of civil authorities to suppress heresies and to discourage their spread. By 1184, under Pope Lucius III, it became the official policy of the Catholic Church to keep a watch on heretics and to hand over to civil authorities those who refused to recant."

 

Kurian, G. T. (2001). Nelson's new Christian dictionary : The authoritative resource on the Christian world. Nashville, Tenn.: Thomas Nelson Pubs.

 

On May 12,2000, at the beginning of the season of Lent Pope John Paul II declared: "As the Successor of Peter, I ask that in this year of mercy the Church, strong in the holiness which she receives from her Lord, should kneel before God and implore forgiveness for the past and present sins of her sons and daughters."  Perhaps, you missed this.

 

"Viva Cristo Rey!!"

 

Deacon Harbey Santiago

Archdiocese of Baltimore

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Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 27 2011 5:51 PM

K.J.:

 

Matthew C Jones:
Go read all the posts made by Milford Charles Murray and you will see his words are those of a gentle soul, a "Peacemaker."
 

 

I totally understand Milford's motives. I never believed that his motives were divisive. However, when he prefaced his post with a paragraph which seemed to promote the theory that all Christians must be catholic(on some level, by some definition)...like it or not. Debate was inevitable.

If you were to start a similar thread and substitute the name of any denomination, then try to sell the theory that everyone is part of that movement...like it or not, what do you think the outcome would be?

Dear Brother (or Sister - I can't tell from your initials),

          Do you really understand all my motives.  Sometimes I hardly understand them myself.  *smile*      I do struggle (as St. Paul did) with the Good that I Would and the evil that I Would Not.  I live in the constant forgivess of my Lord and Saviour Jesus the Christ who shed His Blood for me.

When I posted the Sistine Chapel website, all I wanted to do is share with my brothers and sisters.  Nothing more.  Absolutely.  Not a thing.  It never occured to me that so many people - and so vehemently - would resent the small-letter "C" catholic word which to me simply means universal.  To me the universal church consists of all true believers - regardless of denomination (be it ever so good or not so good at all!) who truly believe in the Lord Jesus Christ as Saviour or Lord.  I tried to make one post which quoted Ephesians 4 to calm down this thread a wee bit, but to no avail.  I mentioned that every issue of Logos Bible Study Magazine confesses "we believe in the catholic church."  I'm glad Logos does!     No one seems to get too excited about that.

           It has been written that no one is so blind as the one "who will not see."

Others have posted to try to calm down this thread!  Good posts!   *smile*  To no avail.  I do not understand why some of you are so hostile and so vehement.  I truly do not.  May God forgive you.

I wish I had never posted in the first place.  I wish that - certainly! - I never posted the way I did.   Sorry that I can be so naive sometimes.

Logos Bible Software is vital in my life.  I thank God for Bob Pritchett, his family, and the whole Logos Team.  I truly do!  And!  I often pray for Logos' success because Satan is confounded when the Holy Spirit of God works through the Word of God.  And!  People are brought to Jesus through positive living and sharing.

The Peace of the Lord be with you Always!                                       And Joy in the Lord Always!

 

 

 

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

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