Why You Need 'Jastrow'
I'm referring to 'Dictionary of the Targumim, the Talmud Babli and Yerushalmi, and the Midrashic Literature' at http://www.logos.com/product/5262/dictionary-of-the-targumim-the-talmud-babli-and-yerushalmi-and-the-midrashic-literature
(Right now Jastrow's Near Eastern Studies Collection is about to move out of CP for $15 which is also a great buy at http://www.logos.com/product/8564/morris-jastrow-near-eastern-studies-collection this week. Don't miss it!)
But this post is about 'Jastrow' or his famous dictionary
:
Let me suggest some reasons why at some point you will 'need' 'Jastrow'. It's just a matter of how much you'll pay for it (pre-pub or regular):
(1) Your library is growing, especially resources that directly reference hebrew and aramaic words. If Logos has tagged the words, you can double-click them and get definitions, etc. If Logos hasn't tagged them (usually your commentaries, etc), Logos will try to get a match, but often come up dry. Jastrow, with its 30,000 entries is almost a sure shot, covering the targums, Talmud, as well as the OT.
(2) You've been reading up on Risto Santala, where he points out the importance of the treatment of the messiah in the targums. Lucky for you, you have the primary targums in your library (clogging it up?), but they're in aramaic. No problem ... you double-click on the aramaic, at which point you discover 'the problem':
- HALOT is 'the best' ... it just lacks the lexical items found in the targums
- As noted above, if Logos does get a 'match', it ends up bouncing all over your lexicons ... HALOT, Gesenius, CAL, TWOT. etc.
- If you had 'Jastrow' with prioritization, you'd have a nice smooth 'read'.
(3) You're excited about the Logos Babylonian and Jerusalem Talmud Collection coming out in March. 50 volumes and organized by Neusner too (matching your Mishnah resource by the way). But you need a resource that can let you move across all those volumes. Yes ... you need 'Jastrow', which also gives you example usages and so much more.
(4) You're just doing routine hebrew or aramaic research on a word, and have a cross-reference to Jastrow. Sure it'd be nice to 'click' on it to see if there's additional information. But even more importantly 'Jastrow' gives you a major 'door' into the Targum/Talmud world of usage. It's kind of like Moulton & Milligan in the greek ... it gives you so many more doors to open.
'Who' was Marcus Jastrow? Some items from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Jastrow):
- He was an American rabbi and scholar, with most of his work in the late 1800s. His dictionary is his most recognized writing, and is best known as simply 'Jastrow'.
- If you have the Jewish Encyclopedia, he wrote most the articles on the Talmud.
- In 1886, he helped found the Jewish Theological Seminary of America
- And today there's actually a project to 'try' and index Jastrow in PDF format (http://jastrowproject.info/). If our Logos had 'Jastrow', it'd not only be indexed but cross-linked to your other resources!
- And if you don't like Jastrow, you have one more choice (not from Logos); you'll pay twice as much.
Now, true, 'Jastrow' in hardcopy is $35 or so. Logos pre-pub is $50. So for a $15 premium, you get all the benefits outlined above. What a deal!!! Plus ... it's one more great reason to attract more customers to our Logos family.
Sign up!
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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OK, you convinced me - I don't normally go for old reference works, but if Jastrow fills some gaps in my Hebrew lexicons when working with non-biblical texts, I'll make an exception [:)].
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Denise Barnhart said:
You're excited about the Logos Babylonian and Jerusalem Talmud Collection coming out in March
Could you write a reason why to be excited about these Talmuds? I am afraid I am ending up with such a massive library, that I get drowned. Even with the search capabilities of L4.
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Patrick Rietveld said:
Could you write a reason why to be excited about these Talmuds?
See this thread: Why is the recently announced Talmud pre-pub so exciting and important?
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The Talmuds help us to understand how non-Christian Jews interpreted the requirements of Old Testament and Jewish legal tradition. Briefly, they're commentaries on the Mishnah (which itself is an interpretation/reflection on the Torah, and which became the principle source of the law in Judaism). Sometimes in the NT (particularly in the gospels) the Talmuds can help us understand the context into which Jesus spoke, which in turn can help us understand better the purpose of his sayings.
That said, the Talmuds on their own will not help a great deal, because you need to understand them, and Judaism more generally to be able to ensure you're understanding them and their relationship to the New Testament properly. (There are numerous unresolved questions as to how accurately and completely the Talmuds reflect first-century Palestinian Judaism, for example.) For myself, the principle value will be in being able to check the text itself when it is cited in the secondary literature. To a lesser extent, I'll also search the Talmuds if I (or others I am reading) suspect a better understanding of Jewish background would shed light on an NT passage.
So, I guess my advice would be that if you're currently reading secondary literature (commentaries, dictionaries, etc.) that cite the Talmuds, then it could be a good purchase for you. But if you're not reading literature like that, then they're unlikely to be of much help on their own.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Mark Barnes said:
So, I guess my advice would be that if you're currently reading secondary literature (commentaries, dictionaries, etc.) that cite the Talmuds, then it could be a good purchase for you. But if you're not reading literature like that, then they're unlikely to be of much help on their own.
To follow up on Mark's point, aside from the occasional glimmer of insight that the Jewish commentators have that either escapes the Christian commentators or may be outside their accepted criteria of "proper" hermeneutics (but is nevertheless entirely valid), I find the Talmud is one of the most often quoted resources in my library. I always like to read original sources rather than quotes, because I like to see the context from which the quote was culled. That, plus I am quite interested in the perspectives (for good or bad) that the rabbis have on TaNaKh (OT).
The thing to remember is this...Talmud is really no different than any Christian commentary--it's the opinions of men regarding the Word of YHWH...at least where they are commenting ON THE TANAKH, and not on what one rabbi said about what another rabbi said about how to wiggle around the logical understanding of Torah, etc. I like reading commentaries, even when the author's perspective is mostly contrary to mine. Even if they don't sway me, the sheer difference of perspective helps me to broaden my own perspective in ways that may indirectly lead me to greater understanding or even profound insight.
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"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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Thanks for the comments. I understand the value of these resources, but when I look at the product lists it seems that every book is important. Even having primary resources only, it would be a lot of texts alongside the different Hebrew and Greek editions (Alexandrian/Byzantine, etc): Qumran database, Göttingen & Ralphs LXX, Ugaritic Library, other Near Eastern Texts, Greek OT pseudepigrapha, Talmud, Early church fathers. Etc. And what about all the archaeological findings (not to speak about the dictionaries and grammars and books on textual issues)?
I have only some Hebrew and Greek editions (including the impressive LDGNT), HALOT/BDAG and EDNT. And a few commentaries.
I find it hard to make a good choice here. Where to continue from here?
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This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Thanks, Denise. Great post! It's moved a little little bit already. Did you take the screeenshot when you weren't logged in? It looks like you yourself haven't ordered. [:P]
Denise Barnhart said:Right now Jastrow's Near Eastern Studies Collection is about to move out of CP for $15
$12 actually. And we might still get it down to $9 before Friday.
Denise Barnhart said:You've been reading up on Risto Santala
So you've actually read this guy? He came up here in response to a suggestion I made, and I hadn't heard about him. Would you mind writing a few words about him on that thread?
Patrick Rietveld said:Where to continue from here?
One thing you could do would be to go to iTunes and look for a podcast called Pardes from Jerusalem. It's about 20-30 minutes a week and covers some part of the following week's Torah portion. There's also a pretty large archive of several years. That way you could get some free insights into Jewish exegesis, and begin to find out whether you find it helpful.
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I study the Bible [:)].
I am a Bible translation consultant and working with 8 translation projects in Africa. For that purpose, I don't think I need much more, except maybe a few more reference works on the Bible and some books that address textual issues and LXX.
I don't think most of the resources I mentioned above would be extra relevant for my daily work in translation. I mean, I can spend a lot of time on reading them and finding out I don't have much time on checking translations.
Although they are mentioned in the commentaries, it is hard to judge which of them is the best.
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Yes, for translation it's original language, LXX and TC stuff that you obviously need most of. Talmuds are much more useful for interpretation than translation. I'm sure you have most of these already, but I'd suggest:
- The original language texts
- Many Bible translations in the languages you speak
- Stuttgart Electronic Study Bible
- Logos LXX
- Standard lexicons
- UBS Handbooks
- Metzger's Textual Commentary
- The NET Bible notes
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Yes, I have all of them, except SESB. The best thing however I bought was Steve Runge Lexham Discourse Greek NT bundle. It really helped me getting a much better insight in the text than all my years of Greek study at secondary school and university.
Translation and interpretation are closely related. How can you translate if you don't understand what you are translating?
After reading all these prepub things, I was just like: wow there is so much to study, too much for one person's time and wallet and mind. Could there be a way that not everybody has everything, but that we share insights. In other words, there is (a) Qumran specialist(s), (a) Septuagint specialist(s), (a) Ugarit specialist(s) etc, etc. all sharing their insights in one big database, all related to the Biblical text. Accessible for Logos users via the web and searchable and readable within L4. That would be cool.
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Patrick Rietveld said:Denise Barnhart said:
You're excited about the Logos Babylonian and Jerusalem Talmud Collection coming out in March
Could you write a reason why to be excited about these Talmuds?
Hello Patrick,
I ordered the Talmuds simply because so many references in my Library cite the Talmuds. When an author cites something and its in my library I try and go read what he cited in context. Its time consuming, but its the way I do business.
Matt
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David ... yes ... Sokoloff (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0801872332/ref=cm_cr_asin_lnk/180-3235834-0961357). Amazon's about $65 or so new.
FGH ... yes .... I stay no-cookies-no-javascript unless there's a need. That can be dangerous on Logos.com if I see something to buy (and already have it on order!).
Others ... for a resource like Jastrow, it's main value for most people is that, as you 'click-thru' your resources trying to understand a word, the Talmud / Targum world of definitions / usage is especially helpful as you get into NT difficult discussions. That's why I also like Moulton/Milligan (greek) in that it gives you a flavor of usage. Neither are 'cut and dried' but the goal is to try to get near the meaning.
If you're in the pastoring / teaching world, resources like the Mishnah (which you really should have, again just to try to understand the jewish thought process) are VERY helpful in many of the NT sequences. One that I ran over accidentally last week threatened 'death' to anyone who closed the eyes of the dead before the 4th day. Immediately I of course thought about Jesus. But I was also trying to understand Luke's version of 'the eye' vs 'the body' and my 'suspicion' that the answer lay in the jewish traditions (my commentaries like ALL wiggled around 20 different ways with no real solution). Just for you're thinking, another good example of the Mishnah being helpful is in Paul's struggle with women's 'coverings' .... his logic was tracking the rabbinical debates that were on-going in the synagogues.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Hi Denise,
Sorry that the discussion went a bit off topic. But I agree with you that a good dictionary is really important to have. Thank you also to explain the hole in HALOT for the targums. And it is really great to have them in Logos. Since I bought Logos a few months ago, I have been using my lexicons much more than I did in the past with my set of hardcopy lexicons. I think the $15 difference is the difference between use and non-use!
I hope not only customers, but also publishers would be attracted to Logos!
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Denise Barnhart said:
another good example of the Mishnah being helpful is in Paul's struggle with women's 'coverings' .... his logic was tracking the rabbinical debates that were on-going in the synagogues.
Unless, of course, he was concerned about Roman styles of worship (but that's a discussion for another day!!).
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Denise Barnhart said:
David ... yes ... Sokoloff (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0801872332/ref=cm_cr_asin_lnk/180-3235834-0961357). Amazon's about $65 or so new.
Denise don't you think Logos should offer us Sokoloff instead? It is the de facto standard... I have Jastrow and Sokoloff (the 4 volumes) in print and I see little reason to pay so much for Jastrow. As an Aramaic lexicon it is outdated.
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David ... agree, but Logos seems to have a penchant for older resources that don't have publishers' headaches. I wish they'd let Jastrow go CP just to let it be bid out. As is, it's likely to just 'sit' with many Logos users not enough familiar with the need for aramaic resources, for Logos to go with a more recent version. I still think from a competitive standpoint, for Logos to get payback on its Mac investment, it really needs to 'fill in the blanks' on several of the key 'background' resources (e.g. Samaritan) that hold customers in the 'A-company' world. Every now and then I look longingly at A-company's resources (though it also doesn't have Jastrow, I believe).
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Denise Barnhart said:
it really needs to 'fill in the blanks' on several of the key 'background' resources (e.g. Samaritan)
The absence of the Samaritan Pentateuch is a disgrace.
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The print version of Jastrow is nigh unreadable. When Eerdmans announced they were republishing, my Aramaic prof got all excited until he learned they weren't re-setting it, which meant another unreadable reprint.
I'd love to have Jastrow AND Sokoloff. For now, we'll take what we can get.
"The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected."- G.K. Chesterton
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Mark Barnes said:
Yes, for translation it's original language, LXX and TC stuff that you obviously need most of. Talmuds are much more useful for interpretation than translation. I'm sure you have most of these already, but I'd suggest:
If you read Aramaic/Syriac then I would also suggest the Targums and the Peshitta. They often times give us excellent insights into the texts.
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David Knoll said:
Denise don't you think Logos should offer us Sokoloff instead? It is the de facto standard... I have Jastrow and Sokoloff (the 4 volumes) in print and I see little reason to pay so much for Jastrow. As an Aramaic lexicon it is outdated.
His Syriac lexicon has already been suggested here. It's also critical to have his other works such as this. However, we do have some of the fruits of the Comprehensive Aramaic Lexicon Project (CAL), which spawned the Sokoloff-Aramaic lexicon. There is a Targum Lexicon that comes with the purchase of the Targums from Logos for only $30. While it provides word meaning in the various dialects of Aramaic I believe it is limited to the vocabulary of the Targums. And if you are working with the Talmud you have to remember that even if a word entry exists in CAL the meaning can be very different from that used in the Talmud, something like 3-4 centuries of language evolution
Also CAL is limited to word meaning only. An example where the three validly overlap can be found below.Needless to say, because of the evolution of Aramaic (and its closely related languages such as Syriac), the number of millennium the the language(s) was spoken, advances in Aramaic scholarship, and the importance of Aramaic to all aspects of Biblical Studies (OT, NT, and Patristics) we need AS MANY Aramaic and Syriac lexical resources as we can get.
Sokoloff
Jastrow
CAL
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Thank you James! You went to a lot of trouble, especially with the examples. I appreciate it.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Denise Barnhart said:
(2) You've been reading up on Risto Santala, where he points out the importance of the treatment of the messiah in the targums. Lucky for you, you have the primary targums in your library (clogging it up?), but they're in aramaic. No problem ... you double-click on the aramaic, at which point you discover 'the problem':
- HALOT is 'the best' ... it just lacks the lexical items found in the targums
- As noted above, if Logos does get a 'match', it ends up bouncing all over your lexicons ... HALOT, Gesenius, CAL, TWOT. etc.
- If you had 'Jastrow' with prioritization, you'd have a nice smooth 'read'.
(3) You're excited about the Logos Babylonian and Jerusalem Talmud Collection coming out in March. 50 volumes and organized by Neusner too (matching your Mishnah resource by the way). But you need a resource that can let you move across all those volumes. Yes ... you need 'Jastrow', which also gives you example usages and so much more.
While I agree that anyone interested in studying Talmud specifically needs Jastrow (and NOW is the best time to get it), but I need to comment on what I think might be a misconception. Unless I am mistaken, the Talmud offering currently on prepub and about to ship shortly does not have the Aramaic as the above seems to imply. Hopefully we will get it BEFORE TOO LONG, but I'm not privy to that information. From the product page on the Talmud.
Individual Titles
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Ben said:
The print version of Jastrow is nigh unreadable. When Eerdmans announced they were republishing, my Aramaic prof got all excited until he learned they weren't re-setting it, which meant another unreadable reprint.
I'd love to have Jastrow AND Sokoloff. For now, we'll take what we can get.
I'm sure the Logos edition of Jastrow will be quite readable and not simply a photo reproduction. I have PDFs of Jastrow and don't find it to be so very unreadable.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Sure. I can blow up the pdfs. I was trying to show another reason why it will be nice to have in Logos, namely that you don't have to deal with the old printed text.
"The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected."- G.K. Chesterton
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Ben said:
Sure. I can blow up the pdfs. I was trying to show another reason why it will be nice to have in Logos, namely that you don't have to deal with the old printed text.
Even with the PDFs which I can resize, I can show you a very good reason for wanting it in Logos. My PDF version comes in 89 files. Try finding something in that. If it were only a little more difficult to find something, I might consider whether I really wanted to know what it says in the first place.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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