search NEAR or WITHIN

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Anthony U | Forum Activity | Posted: Sun, Mar 6 2011 4:44 PM

I'm doing a search for rebuke NEAR village, and rebuke WITHIN 10 WORDS village, and getting no results.  I have selected all bible text, new testament, top bibles, and match all word forms.  I know Lk 9:55-56 has these words near each other but don't know why its not being listed.

Any ideas?

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 6 2011 5:13 PM

Anthony, I am still trying to figure this out.  Here is the Wiki page on SEARCHES (there are others, too):

At first I thought it was because you used "rebuke" and not past tense: "rebuked"  But that didn't pan out, either.

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steve clark | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 6 2011 5:15 PM

Your words cross verse boundaries. Try using Basic search with your Bible as the book to be searched.

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 6 2011 5:28 PM

steve clark:

Your words cross verse boundaries. Try using Basic search with your Bible as the book to be searched.

lol, thanks, Steve.  I was just going to post that and realized you had already.  I had never encountered that before.  But that was my conclusion that you already knew!  Yes

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MJD | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 6 2011 5:36 PM

What do you mean by, verse boundaries??

 

thanks,

 

Mike

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Anthony U | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 6 2011 5:36 PM

OK - that worked - thanks, but it doesn't seem right to me.

Does this mean that Logos searches only within a verse and not between them?  What are verse boundaries?  Shouldn't verse numbers, and other markings, not even come into play in a bible search?

This might be time to post a suggestion.

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 6 2011 5:46 PM

Michael, the search result Anthony was looking for was over Luke 9:55 and 56.


@ Anthony--I have not seen any detailed reasoning.  Maybe Steve has some?  Pretty Please?  But I agree.

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Kevin Becker | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 6 2011 5:51 PM

Michael James:
What do you mean by, verse boundaries??

Bible and Morph searches only look for words within a verse. Therefore Jesus AND Christ will find a verse that has both terms but not adjacent verses where one has Jesus and the other has Christ. A proximity search will only work for two (or more) words within a single verse, the engine won't look beyond verse boundaries.

A Basic search uses chapters as its frame of reference. Therefore a proximity search will ignore versification and you can find words that are in different verses.

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Floyd Johnson | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 6 2011 5:52 PM

Dan DeVilder:
@ Anthony--I have not seen any detailed reasoning.  Maybe Steve has some?  Pretty Please?  But I agree.

... particularly given that the verse number is artificial when compared to the original text.  (I know, "duh")

Blessings,
Floyd

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steve clark | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 6 2011 5:53 PM

This had quiet a discussion many months back, but i haven't located that post.

But here is another post where this came up: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/27613/204398.aspx#204398

Bible searches are performed on a verse by verse basis.

Basic searches are performed on a chapter by chapter basis (per Dave).

 

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 6 2011 6:04 PM

Thank you, Steve--on top of things as always!

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 6 2011 7:13 PM

Another example: wept WITHIN 36 WORDS Lazarus

Doing a Basic Search of a Bible collection can find words in nearby verses and pericopes (e.g. "Jesus Raises Lazarus") within a chapter that a Bible search cannot.  Changing search to wept WITHIN 181 WORDS Lazarus finds results in 20 Bibles (verses John 11:35 and 11:43).

Contrast: a Bible search for Jesus NEAR Lazarus does find verses with both words.

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 6 2011 8:10 PM

Um...based on what I've read in this thread, I conclude that using OPERATORS in Bible searches is pointless, correct?

Actually, I guess that is a bit of an overstatement. But the use of NEAR and WITHIN seems pointless.

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Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 6 2011 8:17 PM

David Paul:

Um...based on what I've read in this thread, I conclude that using OPERATORS in Bible searches is pointless, correct?

Actually, I guess that is a bit of an overstatement. But the use of NEAR and WITHIN seems pointless.

 

No it's not pointless, but it's only good for matching within individual verses.  And since verses generally means sentences, you shouldn't use proximity operators if you expect the two words to be found in different sentences or different verses.  In many cases, though, using "AND" (which is the assumed operator if multiple words are entered) will be sufficient for verse searches.

I find BEFORE and AFTER to be the operators I use most with the Bible search.

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steve clark | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 6 2011 8:27 PM

This also seems to be the way Libronix (Logos3) works.

Bible search does not find rebuke NEAR village

Basic search finds rebuke NEAR village

 

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 6 2011 8:28 PM

Todd Phillips:

David Paul:

Um...based on what I've read in this thread, I conclude that using OPERATORS in Bible searches is pointless, correct?

Actually, I guess that is a bit of an overstatement. But the use of NEAR and WITHIN seems pointless.

 

No it's not pointless, but it's only good for matching within individual verses.  And since verses generally means sentences, you shouldn't use proximity operators if you expect the two words to be found in different sentences or different verses.

Thread http://community.logos.com/forums/t/27679.aspx includes Kevin Becker's desire for morph searches to cross verse boundaries.  Likewise wish basic search could cross chapter boundaries.

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 6 2011 8:45 PM

Todd Phillips:
No it's not pointless, but it's only good for matching within individual verses.  And since verses generally means sentences, you shouldn't use proximity operators if you expect the two words to be found in different sentences or different verses.

yes, not pointless.  But I sometimes remember words in different sentences but in a close context and am trying to locate them.  Bible searching as currently constructed would be pointless.  I don't know the technical side, but I agree--not only would I like to see Bible search transcend verse, but also chapter (although I can't imagine too many scenarios when the latter will trip me up -- but it might.

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 7 2011 5:30 AM

I agree that WITHIN/NEAR searches shouldn't be affected by boundaries (be they article, chapter, or verse boundaries). That's because logically using WITHIN or NEAR you are specifying the extent of the matching within the query (WITHIN 10 WORDS). But with AND and OR you don't specify the extent of the matching within the query, and therefore it's reasonable for Logos to do that for you.

It would also be excellent to have WITHIN 10 VERSES or WITHIN 4 CHAPTERS, or perhaps even WITHIN 1 BOOK for Bible searches.

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Kevin Becker | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 7 2011 6:48 AM

Mark Barnes:

I agree that WITHIN/NEAR searches shouldn't be affected by boundaries (be they article, chapter, or verse boundaries). That's because logically using WITHIN or NEAR you are specifying the extent of the matching within the query (WITHIN 10 WORDS). But with AND and OR you don't specify the extent of the matching within the query, and therefore it's reasonable for Logos to do that for you.

It would also be excellent to have WITHIN 10 VERSES or WITHIN 4 CHAPTERS, or perhaps even WITHIN 1 BOOK for Bible searches.

Yes

 

Posts 213
Anthony U | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 7 2011 7:05 AM

Can you Power Users make a call to the higher ups at Logos to get this done?  Or, do I have to intercede in prayer the way I did to get Large Text searching?  lol

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