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Timothy Lovegrove | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 29 2009 10:11 AM

I'm hopping into this discussion a little late, but hoping for some input. Since solid state drives are starting to drift down in price, would there be any value in putting an SSD in an empty drive bay and putting the logos resources on the SSD? If that's a stupid idea, go ahead and tell me!

 

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 29 2009 11:30 AM

TimothyLovegrove:

I'm hopping into this discussion a little late, but hoping for some input. Since solid state drives are starting to drift down in price, would there be any value in putting an SSD in an empty drive bay and putting the logos resources on the SSD? If that's a stupid idea, go ahead and tell me!

 

 

Really good question Timothy. I have a related question prompted by the recent blog post for Logos Bible Software on an SD Card.

The new Media Only SD Card - Logos Bible Software 3  http://www.logos.com/products/details/5280 made me wonder if it could function like a mini pocket drive. The articles mainly describe it for installation on netbooks that lack optical drives but how about loading all one's Logos resources on the SD card and pointing the program installation to the SD folder? I have never been good at faithful back-ups or synch-ing computers. I generally use one computer for many days at a time making a marked difference between the two Logos file systems. I would be happier with the simple solution of just switching out the SSD from one computer to another. I've seen these storage capacities available on eBay : 256g SSD, 32gb SDHC, 128gb USB. 

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 29 2009 8:39 PM

TimothyLovegrove:
would there be any value in putting an SSD in an empty drive bay and putting the logos resources on the SSD?

There would be some value in using an SSD (>= 32 GB),  but the cost/benefit ratio would not justify it! I might justify it as a boot drive as there will be more benefits, but another phone call to M$ might be necessary to re-activate my OS!  Further,  SSD's are not created equal so you should do some Google researching e.g. Intel has some newer and cheaper drives that would go really well with Windows 7 - http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9135885/Opinion_Windows_7_Will_Scream_With_New_SSD_Drives?taxonomyId=149

Matthew C Jones:
how about loading all one's Logos resources on the SD card and pointing the program installation to the SD folder?

My experience with USB and SD drives >=4GB shows that they are not slower than a good laptop HDD whilst the times of some reports and searches are faster. So it would be worthwhile doing as you suggest, especially as an SD card can remain in place on a laptop during a move. Use the the ability of Windows XP, Vista, Win7 to permanently change drive letters so that the drive is the same on ALL computers e.g. drive S:

 

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

Posts 150
Jim Dean | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 30 2009 4:10 AM
Two ways to speed up massive searches: 1. If you have a 64bit OS you can add up to 32G Ram, much more cheaply than you might think. 2. Rather than teensy SSD's, consider creating a huge, superfast hard drive array using RAID5 Long story here re RAID - will not go thru it unless someone asks. Nutshell: raid5 gives asyougo auto-backup, AND increases access time by 3x or more, and gives you 3x or more storage space than a single drive of the same type. HD's are incred cheap. Example: 4@750g HD w/32M cache for $70 each, plus $150 Raid5 card gives you 2.25 terabytes storage yet runs 3-4x faster than a normal hd. Some machines have builtin Raid controllers, but not usually raid5. Can be done internally or externally. Need a min of 3drives. This speeds up ALL activity on HD's. It's the "bee's knees"

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Redeeming the time (Eph.5:16+Col.4:5) ...
Jim Dean

Posts 40
Timothy Lovegrove | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 30 2009 11:14 AM

JimDean:
Two ways to speed up massive searches: 1. If you have a 64bit OS you can add up to 32G Ram, much more cheaply than you might think. 2. Rather than teensy SSD's, consider creating a huge, superfast hard drive array using RAID5 Long story here re RAID - will not go thru it unless someone asks. Nutshell: raid5 gives asyougo auto-backup, AND increases access time by 3x or more, and gives you 3x or more storage space than a single drive of the same type. HD's are incred cheap. Example: 4@750g HD w/32M cache for $70 each, plus $150 Raid5 card gives you 2.25 terabytes storage yet runs 3-4x faster than a normal hd. Some machines have builtin Raid controllers, but not usually raid5. Can be done internally or externally. Need a min of 3drives. This speeds up ALL activity on HD's. It's the "bee's knees"

Jim, thank you very much for taking the time to give these replies. Looks like I will be going with a RAID-5 just like you are suggesting. Your replies were not in vain! Smile

Posts 150
Jim Dean | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 30 2009 11:33 AM

You're welcome, Timothy.

If you're not personally comfortable in messing with computers' innards (RAID5 isn't hard, but you do need to install them, connect cables, and mess with the BIOS settings), then make SURE your vendor fully understands that you want RAID 5 - not 0 or 1 or 10.  Also, you'll need to make sure your box has room for at least three and preferably four HD's in it, unless you prefer to use an external box called a "backplane".

Also, my mention of the 750G was arbitrary.  ANY size HD that has 32M RAM is just fine - but all of them have to be exactly the same.  If you're buying WD brand, go for the "black" label - "green" is OK too, but avoid the blue for these app's.

Finally, if by some chance you are ALSO going to use the machine for VIDEO CAPTURE (ie feeding the output of a video camera to the HD directly during the live recording), then you should arrange to have TWO separately-controlled drives.  In that case, I suggest you use a conventional C drive, and put all of the L resources on the RAID5 D drive.  Access time to the C drive does not really need acceleration in most cases, since programs stored their are typically loaded into RAM when initiated.  There are other nitpicky considerations re video ... but most people don't do this so I'll defer any other comments unless asked.

Enjoy!

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Redeeming the time (Eph.5:16+Col.4:5) ...
Jim Dean

Posts 67
Brian Whalen | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 31 2009 11:19 AM

Since we're walking down tech st a little bit here, for those of us that need it to be easy, you can buy an external storage device with this capability, usually these are called NAS or Network Attached Storage devices.  Here is one company that makes them, http://www.buffalotech.com/products/network-storage/terastation/.  Newegg is a fave tech vendor of mine, here is their page, http://www.newegg.com/store/SubCategory.aspx?SubCategory=124&Tpk=nas.
The plus of one of these is you can use them as a backup plan, store files/photos on them reliably, and with raid 5, if one disk fails, assuming you become aware of it before a second failure, you just swap the disk and no data is lost.

 

Brian

Brian Whalen

http://www.mcnazarene.com

Posts 31
Stuart A Weber | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 28 2009 9:43 AM

Hi

 

Ill add my 2 cents and ask some more also.

 

1)  RAID is not "backup"-  RAID0 is for speed- usually the other scenarios are for maintaining uptime in event of a drive failure- but it is not "backup"-  a virus (or child ;)  can wipe the data off of all the drives in a RAID1,5,6,10,0+1, etc  just as easy as if you had a single drive.  Writing to a RAID5 can be slow, unless you have a pricey controller with a speedy cpu on it (not that you will be writing to it too much if used just for resources)- and then there is the issue of cache and battery backup- if the system shuts down and the card was still writing to disk, you can loose data if you dont have a battery backup for the card.

For "backup" of your resources,burn the downloads to CD/DVD and put them away safe along with the resources you received on CD.

For speed, a RAID0 with 2 or more fast drives will do wonderfully.

Also,  a technician told me that Libronix makes an index file of all your resources.  It stores that index file on the system drive and there is no way to move it.  Now I dont know if that index gets loaded to RAM when you start Libronix, or if it needs to read from that index file everytime you do searching. If so, then system drive speed could be just as important as resource drive speed.

He also said that Libronix is a memory hog- it will take all the ram you throw at it.  Now how 4GB vs 8GB improves speed and of what functions, i dont know- im just reporting what he said.

 

My questions-  CPU choice, and also RAM timings.

1) I dont know if Libronix natively supports more than 1 CPU- so I wonder if Dual dual-core XEONs gives any benefit over say, a fast single CPU like a Core i7?

2) ram timings- i always thought that ram timings (CAS, etc) were important to keep low for gaming- but a salesrep said it is really more important for databases. y/n?

 

 

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 28 2009 5:10 PM

StuartAWeber:
Also,  a technician told me that Libronix makes an index file of all your resources.  It stores that index file on the system drive and there is no way to move it.  Now I dont know if that index gets loaded to RAM when you start Libronix, or if it needs to read from that index file everytime you do searching

More a cache than an index - stored in \Documents and Settings\All Users\Application Data\Libronix DLS\Library\Cache\Metadata (XP) or \ProgramData\Libronix DLS\Library\Cache\Metadata (Vista/Win7). Created during Resource Discovery it is used more for Reports (Library, Bibliography) than searching.

StuartAWeber:
1) I dont know if Libronix natively supports more than 1 CPU

No, but it can take advantage of multi-threading which means that multi CPU's should be an advantage. If nothing else, when Libronix gets non-responsive you can easily switch to another program!

StuartAWeber:
2) ram timings- i always thought that ram timings (CAS, etc) were important to keep low for gaming- but a salesrep said it is really more important for databases

Low latency is important for database servers but don't get too exited for typical user/client computers. Most affordable improvements are less than 10% which cannot be perceived at the user interface! Gamers will spend hundreds of dollars for esoteric RAM timings, but they spend big in other areas as well e.g. video cards to drive multi-monitors at high resolutions like 2500 x 1600!

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

Posts 31
Stuart A Weber | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 29 2009 11:08 AM

Thanks dave- good info. Im still deciding what to build though.

so as far as Libronix:

1) its not necessary for the cache fileto be on a speedy drive?

2)  Xeons or single core i7?

3)  core i7 will allw DDR3 which can get really high in speed.  Any advantage for Libronix?

(I know that the bread & butter is the drive subsysem speed)

 

thanks :)

Posts 88
Thomas Myers | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 29 2009 5:22 PM

test

Posts 294
Debra W Bouey | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 29 2009 5:33 PM

Matthew C Jones:

I am very interested in any such benchmarks for running LOGOS on a 64-bit operating system. I am planning on upgrading that direction just for the higher RAM ceiling. In the old days we would always get the biggest bang for the buck by maxing out the RAM. I haven't kept up with the new generation of hardware because 32-bit XP has worked well for me. Only noticeable slowdowns are when I do a global search.  What are the ideal hardware specs you would recommend for happy LOGOS use? (Just generic specs.) Will Windows 7 improve performance? I'd prefer to leapfrog Vista.

I recently added a 64-bit Laptop for work on the fly. It had to run my immense Logos database as one of the primary criteria - I run a lot of searches. I had originally intended to reformat the hard drive and install Windows 7 Beta upon arrival. I decided to at least boot up the installed 64-bit Vista, which came with the latest SP and subsequent updates. I was rather pleasantly surprised at the trouble-free, seamless operation. Thus, I never reformatted and used my Win7 Beta key, although I will upgrade when it hits the market in late October.

I purchased the 14.1" WS laptop for its price, portability and ability to run my communications, scientific graphing software, MS Office Suite and my Logos away from my home office. It's done all of that quite efficiently and effectively for a mere $500. The abbreviated specs:

4GB RAM, 64-Bit Vista OS

Core 2 Duo T6400 2.0GHz

If I could change anything, it would've been to have a laptop with a separate graphics card to more fully utilize the capabilities of my 24" WS desktop monitor ... but then I couldn't have touched it at the $499.95 I paid Tiger Direct for the laptop. Smile I do plug in my monitor with either a VGA or HDMI cable, but can't utilize its 1080p capability since it runs off the laptop's onboard video driver.

The little laptop opens and runs Logos swiftly and much more smoothly and efficiently than I expected at the price point!

Debra

 

Lenovo P72: Intel 8th Gen i7-8750H 6-core, 32GB RAM, 2TB HDD + 1TB Sata SSD, 17.3" FHD 1920x1080, NVIDIA Quadro P600 4GB, Win 10 Pro

Posts 294
Debra W Bouey | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 29 2009 5:38 PM

test ... tags

Lenovo P72: Intel 8th Gen i7-8750H 6-core, 32GB RAM, 2TB HDD + 1TB Sata SSD, 17.3" FHD 1920x1080, NVIDIA Quadro P600 4GB, Win 10 Pro

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 29 2009 8:42 PM

StuartAWeber:
1) its not necessary for the cache fileto be on a speedy drive?

The system drive where you installed Windows should be as speedy as possible for all applications.  I would install resources on a second (speedy) drive because you can tell Libronix where they are via Resource Paths in Options.

StuartAWeber:
2)  Xeons or single core i7?

i7 has 4 cores and is expensive!  Xeon is for servers. Core 2 Duo is cheap and fast enough but Core 2 Quad is future-proof. A cheap fast system can be built with an AMD Phenom II triple-core processor.

StuartAWeber:
3)  core i7 will allw DDR3 which can get really high in speed.  Any advantage for Libronix?

DDR3 comes under the banner of a fairly expensive improvement that cannot be perceived with applications like Libronix. DDR2 still offers the best value-for-money.

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

Posts 40
Timothy Lovegrove | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 30 2009 3:16 PM

I know this is just anecdotal, but I have a new core i7 system that cost about $800. It has the low-end i7 (920), 6GB DDR3, a standard 7200rpm hard drive, an average video card, etc. I'm sure the i7s will come down in price soon, so that price point will probably change, but for now it was a fairly good deal, and Logos (and everything else) certainly flies on it.

Posts 31
Stuart A Weber | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 4 2009 5:09 AM

thats true- Microcenter has been selling i7 920 for $199 for months (in the store only I bleieve)  to get people in to build a system.

when I was in there, they actually had 6GB of Corsair Dominator DDR3 that they were CLEARING at $150 because noone was buying it at its usual expensive price! 

 

As far as storage spped, does any tech here now how the various usual storage n=benchmarks relate to Libronix?

 

example:  read IOPS, random 4k Read speed, sustain read speed, etc.  When lookin at reviews of different SSd and hard drives, these (and other) are the types of benchmark they report.

Which benchmark(s) do you want to optimize for Libronix? 

 

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 11 2009 11:51 PM

StuartAWeber:

As far as storage spped, does any tech here now how the various usual storage n=benchmarks relate to Libronix?

example:  read IOPS, random 4k Read speed, sustain read speed, etc.  When lookin at reviews of different SSd and hard drives, these (and other) are the types of benchmark they report.

Which benchmark(s) do you want to optimize for Libronix?

Just make sure you get a commercial SSD, HDD and not one optimised for servers (IOPS being important there). RPM of HDD is important -> Go for 7200 or higher if you can afford it. Get a large cache 16 MB or more. HDD capacity >= 300GB. 

SSD is a different as almost every one is faster than the best HDD and the limitation is price.

In each case look for reviews on the tech sites like Tom's and Anand - but go with their Summary!

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

Posts 31
Stuart A Weber | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 8 2009 3:16 PM

I am building for Libronix AND Photoshop.

I ot the i7-920 for $199 which is STILL a steal, and the 6GB of DDR3 1600MHZ.

I have 4 Intel X25-M 80GB in RAID 0.

Prior, my laptop with its 5400 RPM drive had my 16GB resouce directory (laptop with 2GHz/2M cache and 2GBDDR2).

A Passage Guide search took 32 seconds on the laptop. On the desktop, its 8 seconds.

That long search (cant remember name) that even Morris P. shows you how to close elements of it to speed it up still takes a few minutes.

So even with this speed of storage hardware, is it still throuput to the storage system that makes it a few miuntes- or do these intense searches rely on processor speed and memory bandwidth?

 

 

btw- the be-all would be this:  you can install Libronix itself AND have your resources there

http://www.amazon.com/Fusion-io-ioXtreme-80GB/dp/B002S6CRGY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1257721929&sr=1-1

Posts 31
Stuart A Weber | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 8 2009 3:17 PM

also, since Libronix isnt 64-bit- it doesnt even make use of RAM beyond 3.5gb anyway, does it?

Posts 41
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Phillip | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 8 2009 7:44 PM

StuartAWeber:

That long search (cant remember name) that even Morris P. shows you how to close elements of it to speed it up still takes a few minutes.

So even with this speed of storage hardware, is it still throuput to the storage system that makes it a few miuntes- or do these intense searches rely on processor speed and memory bandwidth?

Are you using Libronix 3 or Logos 4?

What is the specific search you are performing?

-Phillip

Win 7 x64 | Core i7 2600k @ 4.6GHz | 8GB RAM @ 1866MHz | Intel SSD G2

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