Major Loss to Fortress Paul Collection
I just received an e-mail message from Logos:
We recently learned that we cannot include the following books in the Fortress Press Paul Collection:
* Paul: In Fresh Perspective
This is a major loss.
This collection has been in pre-pub for some time, and Logos is just now figuring out it doesn't have the rights to this important work? And what about The Anchor Yale Reference Library? This is starting to be a disturbing trend.
Comments
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This book is included in the N. T. Wright Collection.
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With all the books that are coming out I am already pressed for finances. I am not able to afford 300 plus for this book...just leave it in the paul collection
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Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Kent Hendricks said:
I'll bet that I am not alone in responding that the Wright book was the major reason I ordered the Paul Fortress collection. It seems mighty unfair to move it from a $180 collection to a $320 collection when the $180 collection was just about to be released. I can't afford both collections; I suspect now I shall purchase neither.
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BradN said:Kent Hendricks said:
I'll bet that I am not alone in responding that the Wright book was the major reason I ordered the Paul Fortress collection. It seems mighty unfair to move it from a $180 collection to a $320 collection when the $180 collection was just about to be released. I can't afford both collections; I suspect now I shall purchase neither.
I am possibly the only one on the other side of the fence. I want all of N.T. Wright's books even more than the Paul Fortress Collection. I was happy to see it moved to the N.T. Wright Collection. Now that I hear everyone's concerns I wish it had not been. (I hope to get both sets.)
Maybe Mr Wright & Logos can separate that one title and offer it as a stand alone purchase so everybody can get it.
How about it? [Y]
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matthew C Jones said:BradN said:Kent Hendricks said:
I'll bet that I am not alone in responding that the Wright book was the major reason I ordered the Paul Fortress collection. It seems mighty unfair to move it from a $180 collection to a $320 collection when the $180 collection was just about to be released. I can't afford both collections; I suspect now I shall purchase neither.
I am possibly the only one on the other side of the fence. I want all of N.T. Wright's books even more than the Paul Fortress Collection. I was happy to see it moved to the N.T. Wright Collection. Now that I hear everyone's concerns I wish it had not been. (I hope to get both sets.)
Maybe Mr Wright & Logos can separate that one title and offer it as a stand alone purchase so everybody can get it.
How about it?
Hefty thumbs up to both of your posts. [Y]
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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BradN said:
It seems mighty unfair to move it from a $180 collection to a $320 collection when the $180 collection was just about to be released. I can't afford both collections; I suspect now I shall purchase neither.
Okay I wasn't going to comment but If you check you will find that it is being offered by a different publisher. It was not move at all just that another publisher(SPCK) is allowing Logos to publish 'Paul: In Fresh Perspective' as part of the Wright collection.
'Paul: In Fresh Perspective' offered in the Fortress Paul collection is no longer available from the publishers(Fortress is NOT giving Logos the go ahead). Sound confusing - Fortress is saying NO while SPCK is saying YES. I may be wrong but I think that is what has happened.
Ted
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
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SPCK is the English publisher. Fortress is the American publisher.
Now, you may be correct that there may be a last minute problem with the rights from Fortress. But again, how does Logos offer a book in a collection as a pre-pub (for years!) without having secured the rights to the book? This is the Anchor Yale Reference Library situation all over again.
Logos seems to do a poor job in contractually securing the rights to the books it offers.
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BradN said:
This is the Anchor Yale Reference Library situation all over again.
Logos seems to do a poor job in contractually securing the rights to the books it offers.
If I understand the AYRL situation correctly. A new guy appointed to the top (Publisher side) wants to take a fresh look at the contract. Of course we don't know the details. Only Logos knows what is happening and I am sure Logos are eager to see the AYRL in their product line.
Ted
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
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Ted -- this is not an argument with you so please don't take this the wrong way.
I admit that I am irked by the Fortress Paul Collection (which has lost 3 or so books over the last year) and the AYRL situations.
I am an attorney who has practiced business and contract law for decades. I have a fairly good idea how businesses work.
Yale Univ. Press (which owns the AYRL) is a big, sophisticated publisher.
A well-drafted contract should clearly delineate the rights and obligations of the contracting parties.
A "new guy" at YUP should not be able to re-negotiate the existing contract between Logos and YUP.
Of course, admittedly, I don't know all the facts. But the only conclusion I can draw is that Logos uses a poorly drafted contract. It appears to offer books (or resources, if you prefer), it does not have firm rights to.
I am a Logos fan. I have spent a lot of money with Logos to study God's word. But when things like this happen, I think "what a bunch of amateurs."
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Then Logos should let people know they are looking for help in this area! People like BradN may all ready have jobs and if Logos needs help it is up to them to find people to work for them.
On the plus side no one is made to pre-order a package and we are given the right to cancel one for any reason.
In Chirst,
Jim VanSchoonhoven
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Jim VanSchoonhoven said:
Then Logos should let people know they are looking for help in this area! People like BradN may all ready have jobs and if Logos needs help it is up to them to find people to work for them.
i was being tongue in cheek. sorry, forgot the [:P].
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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BradN said:
Of course, admittedly, I don't know all the facts. But the only conclusion I can draw is that Logos uses a poorly drafted contract. It appears to offer books (or resources, if you prefer), it does not have firm rights to.
[Y]
Of course, given the amount of money they've already spent on developing the AYBRL, and have already waited for half a year to collect from us, I think we can safely assume that this is one mistake they do not intend to redo! For the future, I am more worried about things that cost them money to fix, than about things that cost them money not to fix.
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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BradN said:
A "new guy" at YUP should not be able to re-negotiate the existing contract between Logos and YUP.
That is the point that worries me most. I have seen a lot of titles languish in Pre-Pub for lack of interest. We even lost The Samaritan Pentateuch and Crum's Coptic Dictionary. But having an indefinite delay on a popular collection for an issue like a "new guy" decides unilaterally not to honor the commitment of previous administrations shakes my confidence in all projects under development.
Доверяй, но проверяй -- Ronald Reagan, quoting an old Russian proverb
Ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἀποστέλλω ὑμᾶς ὡς πρόβατα ἐν μέσῳ λύκων· γίνεσθε οὖν φρόνιμοι ὡς οἱ ὄφεις καὶ ἀκέραιοι ὡς αἱ περιστεραί -- Jesus Christ Matthew 10:16
Aland, Barbara ; Aland, Kurt ; Black, Matthew ; Martini, Carlo M. ; Metzger, Bruce M. ; Wikgren, Allen: The Greek New Testament. 4th ed. Federal Republic of Germany : United Bible Societies, 1993, c1979, S. 24Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Mr. DeVilder,
If Logos has trouble securing competent legal counsel with the money it makes, then perhaps they need to review their internal legal needs since this, I would think, would be a major tenet of the success of their business.
If they are getting this wrong, then many other things likely are wrong of a less sensitive nature.
I doubt they are going to come to the forums for good help (albeit the music group Journey did use Youtube for their latest lead singer).
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Pat Flanakin said:
If Logos has trouble securing competent legal counsel with the money it makes, then perhaps they need to review their internal legal needs since this, I would think, would be a major tenet of the success of their business.
We are missing one major/crucial piece of information - what rights the author has and what rights the publisher has. It would be quite possible, especially for things that languish in pre-pub, for the publisher's rights to expire or to be transferred or for expected extensions to never materialize.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I am pretty new to the L4 world, but I can't believe that the Samaritan Pentateuch and Crum's Coptic dictionary were once on pre-pub and couldn't gain enough interest.
Am I a weirdo for thinking such...?
How do we ask logos to put them both back onto pre-pub?
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If I remember correctly (I may be wrong), but the Samaritan Pentateuch wasn't pulled for lack of interest. It wasn't even on the prepub page very long.
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I remember somebody commenting recently that Logos are very close with Eerdmans...so considering Eerdmans are releaseing the English translation of the Samaritan Pentateuch soon, maybe the rights can be secured? See... http://www.dovebook.com/bookdesc.asp?bookid=59079
It would be more helpful if it could come with the Hebrew text though! This book looks like it might be of use... http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1904808182/evertype-20, don't know the publisher though.
I recently ordered a copy of both of these, so when they arrive, I will let you know more. However, I would much prefer the convenience of having them on L4!
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Matthew C Jones said:BradN said:Kent Hendricks said:
I'll bet that I am not alone in responding that the Wright book was the major reason I ordered the Paul Fortress collection. It seems mighty unfair to move it from a $180 collection to a $320 collection when the $180 collection was just about to be released. I can't afford both collections; I suspect now I shall purchase neither.
I am possibly the only one on the other side of the fence. I want all of N.T. Wright's books even more than the Paul Fortress Collection. I was happy to see it moved to the N.T. Wright Collection. Now that I hear everyone's concerns I wish it had not been. (I hope to get both sets.)
Maybe Mr Wright & Logos can separate that one title and offer it as a stand alone purchase so everybody can get it.
How about it?
Three [Y] from me for that suggestion Matthew. I hope you will be listened to by Logos in that matter.
Bohuslav
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Pat Flanakin said:
Mr. DeVilder,
If Logos has trouble securing competent legal counsel with the money it makes, then perhaps they need to review their internal legal needs since this, I would think, would be a major tenet of the success of their business.
If they are getting this wrong, then many other things likely are wrong of a less sensitive nature.
I doubt they are going to come to the forums for good help (albeit the music group Journey did use Youtube for their latest lead singer).
Mr. Flanakin--you can call me Dan. No doubt Logos is open to making mistakes. But here is my perspective: a) we are all making huge assumptions on what happened, and frankly, we have no clue what led to this. b) ALL of us, including smart business guys (Trump, Ben and Jerrys, King James) make mistakes. Let's not go overboard with our evaluation or condemnation of Logos. Things happen. (and that brings me back to a).
Peace.
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Hapax Legomena said:
SPCK is the English publisher. Fortress is the American publisher.
Now, you may be correct that there may be a last minute problem with the rights from Fortress. But again, how does Logos offer a book in a collection as a pre-pub (for years!) without having secured the rights to the book? This is the Anchor Yale Reference Library situation all over again.
Logos seems to do a poor job in contractually securing the rights to the books it offers.
PrePublish items do not mean anything close to a contract has been worked out. The New Interpreter's Bible has been offered under a PrePublish just to gauge interest, I was informed by Abingdon, it was totally Logos idea, contract negations as to costs and even if Logos will be allowed to publish it are still underway. With this one I would almost assuredly bet the problem is with SPCK, they likely were the first publisher and retained priority rights, allowing fortress to print it in USA does't mean they gave up rights to publish it in other formats. If they wish to refuse to release electronic publishing rights to Fortress that is their business. I would bet this is a over site on AF thinking they had rights beyond it's print editions.
-Dan
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Super Tramp said:
having an indefinite delay on a popular collection for an issue like a "new guy" decides unilaterally not to honor the commitment of previous administrations shakes my confidence in all projects under development.
My confidence in Logos is not shaken. Things like this happen in business, and no one posting has a clue for all the reasons. But this I do know, my 17 years of investing in Logos resources convinces me that they know exactly what they are doing, and that they have their customers best interests at heart.
On the other hand, my confidence in the present United States government is shaken, but that is off subject.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
Do you realize you're replying to posts that are 1.5 years old? [;)]
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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Also, looking at the OP, I see that the title in question is available as an individual title on Logos: http://www.logos.com/product/15824/paul-fresh-perspectives
So wouldn't its exclusion from the Fortress Paul Collection be a moot point?
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fgh said:
Do you realize you're replying to posts that are 1.5 years old?
LOL i certainly did not, I must admit I never even noticed the date… I had thought both items were released but not owning either sets I just assumed there had been a delay in their release. LOL But what is wrong at our tolling at windmills…. LOL
-Dan
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Richard DeRuiter said:
Ann Baglivo's post reported as spam
Thanks. I was about to do the same, after learning that it could be done without affecting the entire post.
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Dan DeVilder said:
. . . maybe they are waiting for a guy like you to step in and help them . . . Free Portfolio for services rendered.
Really?? Does that mean if I hector and whine to the powers that be just like the woman who went to the judge and got things taken care of...I will then get a refund of my Portfolio purchase price? Wow! Just give me the address, email, and phone numbers...it's good as done.
As a teacher of students identified with "behavior problems", ones that other adults have literally given up on ever affecting, I've used that tactic to great success. One student in particular, who cursed constantly and with seeming impunity, was placed in my class. He came in, sat down, and proceeded cursing. Being familiar with him, I knew that simply asking or telling him to stop was fruitless. So I went over to him, bent over and said, "Your not going to do that in my classroom." He cursed me. I repeated myself...again, and again, and again. He cursed and told me to get out of his face. I said, "What other people allow you to do outside of this class doesn't matter to me, but this is my classroom, and you aren't going to do that in here. I don't care if we never do a stitch of work the rest of this year...you aren't going to do that in here." I said it over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over...until he finally said, "Aw, man..." and folded his arms and clammed up. I walked away...and the second he cursed again...I walked over and went through the whole procedure again...and again. After about 2-3 days, he rarely spoke and when he did, he rarely cursed. Once, I walked into another teacher's class, and he was sitting in a corner just cursing away, and I said "What?!?" He turned and saw me and immediately said "Aw, man..." and folded his arms and clammed up--at least until I walked out of the class. I can pester with the best of them. [:P]
Let me at 'em!! Cha'ching!! My Portfolio is free!
ASUS ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti
"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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David Paul said:
As a teacher of students identified with "behavior problems", ones that other adults have literally given up on ever affecting, I've used that tactic to great success. One student in particular, who cursed constantly and with seeming impunity, was placed in my class. He came in, sat down, and proceeded cursing. Being familiar with him, I knew that simply asking or telling him to stop was fruitless. So I went over to him, bent over and said, "Your not going to do that in my classroom." He cursed me. I repeated myself...again, and again, and again. He cursed and told me to get out of his face. I said, "What other people allow you to do outside of this class doesn't matter to me, but this is my classroom, and you aren't going to do that in here. I don't care if we never do a stitch of work the rest of this year...you aren't going to do that in here." I said it over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over...until he finally said, "Aw, man..." and folded his arms and clammed up. I walked away...and the second he cursed again...I walked over and went through the whole procedure again...and again. After about 2-3 days, he rarely spoke and when he did, he rarely cursed. Once, I walked into another teacher's class, and he was sitting in a corner just cursing away, and I said "What?!?" He turned and saw me and immediately said "Aw, man..." and folded his arms and clammed up--at least until I walked out of the class. I can pester with the best of them.
You're hard-core, man! I smiled thinking of the scene and the fortitude it takes for battle of wills. Nice outcome.
Made me think of my years (two) teaching at a residential school for at-risk children. God keep blessing you, David.
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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