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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 25 2011 3:07 PM

Jim VanSchoonhoven:
Your example of Harold Camping is a perfect example.  I know of him, but have never really studied his view on dispensationalism so I am not sure if he is a dispensationalist, but the fact that he sets dates is not because he is a dispensationalist.

Harold will tell you he is a Dispensationalist. I would call him a "date-setter" and agree that does not put him in the same school with Scofield, Ryrie, or Bullinger. Here is page 50 from Camping's book "We Are Almost There"----

No dispensational teaching other than the Church Age has ended already................Not in agreement with any of the classical theologians.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 25 2011 3:10 PM

Jack Caviness:

Matthew C Jones:
Here are some Logos resources that are definitively dispensational:

None of the resources you mention are on the same scholarly level as the EEC promises to become. That is the main feature that inspired me to pre-order the set. 

Although I have most of the resources I listed and do respect them,  I agree the EEC promises to be a significant contribution to that body of work. That is why I plan to place an order too.

 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 25 2011 5:35 PM

Jim VanSchoonhoven:
when in many cases these extra beliefs are just out right false teachings and not as a result of their belief in dispensations.

Jim, I want to be a model of consistency. We are not to make users of any beliefs feel uncomfortable in the forums or make people unwilling to admit their beliefs. Therefore I don't like to see anyone call anything "just right out false teachings" - although, of course, such beliefs are expressed here. Wink The forum is a place for the discussion of Logos, Logos resources, and (we hope) future Logos resources.

So, although I know little about the various dispensational positions, I'm being fair and coming to the defense of someone.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Jim VanSchoonhoven | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 25 2011 7:29 PM

MJ.  Smith, I thought I did a good job of not naming anyone, and still making a valid point.  To help make things a little more clear, I would be willing to stick my neck out a little and say that both you and I have helped spread a false teaching or two in our lives and will most likely do it again at some point in the future!

I believe my point was clear that both dispensational and covenant positions are sometimes tied to false teaching because of quilt by association.

If that insulted someone, they may need to be a little tougher, it was not meant in a mean spirited way and I was not judging anyone's motives.

On the other hand I am often offended by the political correctness in church affairs.  We may need to read some of Paul's writings a little closer and look at the language he used to express thoughts with those that disagreed with him.

It is okay to disagree with others about the bible and to express your opinion, that doesn't mean you hate them. 

We need to be honest we all agree there are false teachings and true teachings, and to say so is not wrong or rude. 

I believe this passage as a message for all of us. Phil 3:15 and 16.

15 Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you; 16 however, let us keep living by that same standard to which we have attained.

In Christ,

Jim VanSchoonhoven

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 25 2011 8:13 PM

Jim VanSchoonhoven:
It is okay to disagree with others about the bible and to express your opinion, that doesn't mean you hate them. 

That is good to know because I disagree with a large percentage of the theological opinions in my own Logos resources library but I still like them, a lot! Wink

If I did not own them, I would not know if I agreed with them or not.

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Michael Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 25 2011 8:24 PM

Jim VanSchoonhoven:

Michael Childs, I am wondering what do you mean by dispensational?

Jim, I sure don't mean to make dispensational sound like a curse word, and I fear I have sounded that way.  Some of my heroes in the faith are dispensational in theology.  These are guys whose shoes I am unworthy to tie.  (I mean dispensationalists like Adrian Rogers, Billy Graham, D. L. Moody for example.)  I grew up dispensational.  I respect those who are dispensational as my brothers in Christ, and I would buy a commentary set with a reasonable representation of dispensationalist authors.  In fact, I support the idea of the ECC being dominated by dispensationalists, but I would not be interested in buying such a commentary.  I just don't want to spend that much money on commentaries that I feel would be of little use to me.

Some characteristics of dispensationalism (to me) are a distinction in God's plan for Jews and the Church, certain eschatological views such as the pre-tribulation rapture of the church, the belief that certain passages of scripture (such as the Sermon on the Mount) do not apply to us in this dispensation. 

That is an inadequate summary and does not do dispensationalism justice.  Dispensational theology was developed in the mid 1800's.  All dispensationalists may not hold to all those points.  I hesitate to define someone else's views, but you did say what does it mean "to me."

 

 

 

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

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Jim VanSchoonhoven | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 25 2011 11:19 PM

Thanks Michael, that is what I was wondering.  I really wanted to know what it was that you turned away from that you defined as being a dispensationalist and wondered what you turned to??? 

If I understand you right it is the idea that there some kind of difference between God's purpose for Israel and the body of Christ.

I am a hard core dispensationalist and I would agree that there is a lot of continuity between Israel and the body of Christ, such as how both are saved by faith, however it appears to me there is also some true discontinuity between Israel and the body of Christ such as keeping the Sabbath day as an example.

Using a normal hermeneutics to read the scriptures indicates to me that God changes how he deals with mankind at different times.  This idea is dispensationalism.  I believe this idea of despensationlism, not only shows the continuity we see in the scriptures but also the discontinuity we see in the scriptures. 

What you said in your earlier post was that this was too narrow of a view for the authors to have.  and that would greatly have an impact on their value to you. I could not understand why you would feel that way.  I use non-dispensational commentaries all the time and learn alot from them and don't see their point of view on  issues as being too narrow even though I disagree with them.  It looked like you rejected their scholarship based on them being dispensationalist.  I don't think that is the case now.

Thanks for your reply, I understand what you are saying much better now!

In Christ,

Jim VanSchoonhoven

 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 25 2011 11:54 PM

Jim VanSchoonhoven:
I believe my point was clear that both dispensational and covenant positions are sometimes tied to false teaching because of quilt by association.

My apologies, that is not how I originally read it. With you explanation, I see what you intended.

Jim VanSchoonhoven:
On the other hand I am often offended by the political correctness in church affairs.

I belong to such a cantankerous, argumentative Christian community that political correctness might be an improvement.Wink

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Ted Weis | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 26 2011 7:15 AM

Here's a larger question worth discussing...

By launching the EEC project, Logos is essentially going into competition against the very companies who produce the commentaries that Logos depends upon in order to create its digital projects.

Is this a problem, or is the market big enough?

Comparatively, the EEC looks to be in the Pillar to NICOT/NT range, which is closely related to Zondervan's and Baker's Exegetical series.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 26 2011 9:05 AM

Ted Weis:
By launching the EEC project, Logos is essentially going into competition against the very companies who produce the commentaries that Logos depends upon in order to create its digital projects.

Not really. The Evangelical Exegetical Commentary project was not initiated by Logos but resurrected by them.  As Jack mentioned above, there is really nothing quite like it. Logos has determined there is enough of a demand to make the project worthwhile. If it were a redundant product there would be no demand. Baker's Exegetical series is being well received in spite of NICOT/NICNT's great success. I am guessing this has to do with the market demand for the "latest & greatest" scholarship.  If that is correct the EEC will be well received too. You can't get much  "later" than a 2019 completion date. Big Smile

Ted Weis:
Is this a problem, or is the market big enough?

The market will bear an additional high quality set. I don't think we will see Baker Exegetical Commentary or NICOT/NICNT fall by the wayside. The older, single author standards will likely be shelved. A simile in modern medicine would be the family General Practitioner being replaced by a team of specialists. One Doctor's 12 years of school and 4 decades of experience is no match for eight Doctors' 96 years of school and 160 years of combined experience. As brilliant as Luther, Calvin, Matthew Henry, and A.T. Robertson were, they did not say all that could be said.

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 26 2011 12:09 PM

Matthew C Jones:
A simile in modern medicine would be the family General Practitioner being replaced by a team of specialists

The old-time GP has been replaced by the Family Care Specialist, and there are still plenty of them in this area, some in groups and some still in single practice, as is my family doctor.

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MJD | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 26 2011 12:32 PM

Matthew C Jones:

Ted Weis:
By launching the EEC project, Logos is essentially going into competition against the very companies who produce the commentaries that Logos depends upon in order to create its digital projects.

The market will bear an additional high quality set. I don't think we will see Baker Exegetical Commentary or NICOT/NICNT fall by the wayside. The older, single author standards will likely be shelved. A simile in modern medicine would be the family General Practitioner being replaced by a team of specialists. One Doctor's 12 years of school and 4 decades of experience is no match for eight Doctors' 96 years of school and 160 years of combined experience. As brilliant as Luther, Calvin, Matthew Henry, and A.T. Robertson were, they did not say all that could be said.

Brilliant analogy...Yes  I agree and I own both above mentioned commentaries.   But, I will not be buying the EEC unless they revamp the price and payment plan to remove the service fees.  There is still way to much speculation and the risk vs. reward is not great enough for me to take the plunge.

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Michael Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 26 2011 2:03 PM

Matthew C Jones:
I
Matthew C Jones:
The market will bear an additional high quality set. I don't think we will see Baker Exegetical Commentary or NICOT/NICNT fall by the wayside.
f it were a redundant product there would be no demand.

I agree with all Matthew said.  

I would add that its being dispensational, while a drawback with some of us, will probably be an asset in ECC sales.  That is a huge market.

I would guess - nothing to back this up but my own observations - that 50% or more of United Methodist pastors are dispensational (including most of the local pastor non-seminary grads), 75%+ of all Baptist pastors,  most Pentecostal pastors, and a smaller per cent of Presbyterian pastors are dispensational.  That is just my guess and has no real credibility, but I think it is so.  With those kind of numbers, the ECC has a huge market.  I think Logos will do well.

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 26 2011 2:53 PM

Michael Childs:
75%+ of all Baptist pastors,  most Pentecostal pastors, and a smaller per cent of Presbyterian pastors are dispensational.

I would probably agree with that estimate.

Michael Childs:
50% or more of United Methodist pastors are dispensational (including most of the local pastor non-seminary grads),

That was a surprise initially. Then, I realized that I do not know any United Methodists well enough to evaluate your estimate.

Michael Childs:
 That is a huge market.

I think so. I'm in. 

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Eric Weiss | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 26 2011 3:13 PM

A complete set of scholarly commentaries on the entire Bible* in 8 years? 

To quote Tevye in Fiddler on the Roof: "Unheard of! Absurd! Who do you think you are? King Solomon? This isn't the way it's done, not here, not now. Where does it stop? Where does it stop?"

* Well, except for the Apocrypha/Deuterocanonicals. Cool

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 26 2011 3:29 PM

Michael Childs:
I would guess

Based on how things are here in middle America (Kansas, Missouri, Nebraska, Oklahoma, Arkansas & Texas) I would say you are a good guesser. Big Smile

I'd also throw in most Church of Christ people I know but I am starting to sound like a stereotyping parrot here.

One point I want to understand Michael is: Why do you not find a need/interest/use for the EEC?  I personally may find myself agreeing much more with comments of the EEC writers than I do with other commentaries but I did buy the others and have no regrets getting them. (And they are not cheap either!)

(Anchor Yale, NICOT/NICNT, WBC, Luther, Calvin, Hermeneia, Lenski, BNT, Boice, Aquinas, & others.) These were not included in a base package. I specifically sought them out and paid extra to have them.  I did buy others that say the same stuff I've heard much of my life (Ironside, College Press, McGee and Zondervan.) But I would have a thinner understanding if I had stopped there. Likewise with the Socio-Rhetorical works, and the new fangled discourse analysis. Big Smile

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Si | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 26 2011 7:01 PM

Michael Childs:
75%+ of all Baptist pastors

I am a Baptist pastor and am not a dispensationalist.  Your estimate may be bit high (perhaps not if you consider all stripes of Baptist pastors), but you will likely find the percentage of Baptist pastors who are dispensationalist decrease as the years increase.  The current theological trend is the coalescing of dispensational and covenant theology, so that even DTS profs are moving away from the classic variety of dispensationalism a la Scofield and friends.  Progressive dispensationalism has infiltrated DTS, and Southern Baptist seminaries consist of many faculty members who affirm a classic/historic premill eschatological framework.  Has anyone considered that the EEC may not be as dispensational as we might imagine?  Yes, there are many DTS profs who are contributors, but their dispensationalism may not be as strong as everyone assumes.  I am singed up for the EEC, but will make my decision on purchasing this series based upon finances.  This is because today's dispensationalist is not as far away from me hermeneutically/exegetically as the dispensationalists of the past.  I think I can benefit from this series, but can I afford it?          

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Michael Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 26 2011 7:05 PM

Jack Caviness:

Michael Childs:
50% or more of United Methodist pastors are dispensational (including most of the local pastor non-seminary grads),

That was a surprise initially. Then, I realized that I do not know any United Methodists well enough to evaluate your estimate.

I am only talking about American pastors.  In the world church I think the number of dispesationalists would be smaller. 

Methodist is the one I am most sure about.  I am United Methodist, and I am not dispensational.  If you count the many local pastors, who are not seminary trained, I suspect it is a low estimate.  Dispensational theology has been so popularized in American culture that it has influence in all denominations.  I'd say 70% plus of Methodist laity are dispensational in regard to eschatology. 

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

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Michael Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 26 2011 7:07 PM

Si Cochran:
Southern Baptist seminaries consist of many faculty members who affirm a classic/historic premill eschatological framework.

Wonderful!  That is where I am.

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

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Michael Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 26 2011 7:23 PM

Matthew C Jones:
One point I want to understand Michael is: Why do you not find a need/interest/use for the EEC?  I personally may find myself agreeing much more with comments of the EEC writers than I do with other commentaries but I did buy the others and have no regrets getting them.

Matthew,  I am not opposed to the project.  I just don't think it would be worth the money for me.  I have many commentaries from many views, and I benefit from them, too.  I have NICOT / NICNT, WBC, Luther, Wesley, Boice, BNT, MacArthur, Spurgeon, and many more.  Luther, Wesley, Boice, Spurgeon, and MacArthur are individuals whom I respect and want to hear, even though I may disagree with them on some issues.

Usually, a major exegetical set of commentaries is not written by one author, or even by authors from one school.  None of the other major sets that I own are dominated by one seminary.  That is a big issue for me.  That is something that is  true of no other serious exegetical set.  That will keep the ECC from having much influence outside of dispensational circles. 

It is especially a big issue since I reject much of the teachings of dispensationalism.  Having grown up dispensational, I have dealt with those issues.  I know the dispensational point of view, and don't agree.  It would be a waste of my money to buy a commentary set that is dominated by such a view.  Take the sermon on the mount, for example.  I greatly benefit from the comments of Calvin or Martyn Lloyd-Jones on the sermon on the mount.  But a dispensationalist who thinks that it doesn't apply to this age wouldn't be worth much to me.  (I know that not all dispensationalist believe that, but you get the point.)

I won't buy this set of commentaries for the same reason that many probably would not buy it if the set was dominated by my semiary - Asbury. 

Since I really do wish Logos and this series great success, it's time I shut up about it.  I intend to do that.  I will not post again on the ECC unless I decide to buy it.  In that case, I will humbly eat crow.

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

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