Was Judas present when Christ instituted Communion?

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Jesse Blevins | Forum Activity | Posted: Sat, Mar 26 2011 10:20 AM

please help with good resources.

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Tobias Lampert | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 26 2011 10:48 AM

First suggestion: The Bible! Cool

Edit: Matthew 26,25; Mark 14,18-20; Luke 22,21; John 13,26

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TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 26 2011 10:51 AM

Which library do you have Pastor Jesse?  

 

Hmm Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 

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tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 26 2011 10:54 AM

Pastor Jesse Blevins :

please help with good resources.

I always think scripture is a good resource.  In Luke 22:14-23, Judas was at the table.  In Matthew 26:20-30 and Mark 14:12-25, it is not clear when Judas left.  And the Eucharistic is not in John.

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Tobias Lampert | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 26 2011 10:59 AM

tom collinge:
I always think scripture is a good resource.  Luke Luke 22:14-23, Judas was at the table.  In Matthew 26:20-30 and Mark 14:12-25, it is not clear when Judas left.  And the Eucharistic is not in John.

You're too late, Tom - that was MY suggestion, and I even added John! Stick out tongue

Edit: And, yes, I'm aware John 13 isn't about Communion. :)

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Jesse Blevins | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 26 2011 11:01 AM

platinum. there is a lot of controversy on this issue even among the scholars. 

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Tobias Lampert | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 26 2011 11:07 AM

Pastor Jesse Blevins,

You might run a search on "Closed Communion" (there are people out there stating Jesus himself instituted Closed Communion since Judas had already left - though I can't see any scriptural justification for this), you should get some results you can go with.

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Jacob Hantla | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 26 2011 11:08 AM

You might want to do a search of your library like the following: (Judas NEAR present) AND ("Lord's Supper" OR Eucharist OR Communion)

 

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 26 2011 11:08 AM

Matthew 26:23

Definitely supping with the Lord. 

But some may differentiate between the meal and the ordinance.

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tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 26 2011 11:08 AM

Theolobias:

tom collinge:
I always think scripture is a good resource.  Luke Luke 22:14-23, Judas was at the table.  In Matthew 26:20-30 and Mark 14:12-25, it is not clear when Judas left.  And the Eucharistic is not in John.

You're too late, Tom - that was MY suggestion, and I even added John! Stick out tongue

Yes, I saw that I was slow looking up the scripture verses.  I will also challenge you to find the Eucharist in John.

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Tobias Lampert | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 26 2011 11:12 AM

Theolobias:
Edit: And, yes, I'm aware John 13 isn't about Communion. :)

Have you seen that? Stick out tongue

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Jesse Blevins | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 26 2011 11:13 AM

luke 22 definitely says yes he was present.

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tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 26 2011 11:19 AM

Theolobias:

Theolobias:
Edit: And, yes, I'm aware John 13 isn't about Communion. :)

Have you seen that? Stick out tongue

Nope, I did not see that edit.

Because the Eucharist is not in John, we cannot use John to support or deny the presence of Judas when Jesus Instituted the Lord’s Supper.

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Tobias Lampert | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 26 2011 11:19 AM

Pastor Jesse Blevins :
luke 22 definitely says yes he was present.

That's right - I recall positions saying Judas was present but didn't receive Bread and Wine. Again, I'm not convinced by the argumentation going along with this at all, but I guess "Closed Communion" could be a place to find some mentions of these discussions.

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Tobias Lampert | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 26 2011 11:22 AM

tom collinge:
Because the Eucharist is not in John, we cannot use John to support or deny the presence of Judas when Jesus Instituted the Lord’s Supper.

Tom, I'm totally aware of that - however, I think John 13 should be mentioned since it shows strong textual connections (Traditionskritik) to Matthew 26, Mark 14 and Luke 22.

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Jesse Blevins | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 26 2011 11:31 AM

in marks gospel it does not say that Judas left. in verse 23 it says they all drink from it. Mark does not exclude Judas ; he could have easily.

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Tobias Lampert | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 26 2011 11:35 AM

Pastor Jesse Blevins :
in marks gospel it does not say that Judas left. in verse 23 it says they all drink from it. Mark does not exclude Judas ; he could have easily.

That's what I'm saying! :)

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 26 2011 11:37 AM

Theolobias:
but I guess "Closed Communion" could be a place to find some mentions of these discussions.

I can see where Judas partaking of the Eucharist would be very problematic with Closed Communion adherants.

There is also another perspective called "Close Communion"   (Presbyterian & others)

and then there is the "Open Communion" where there just about everyone who professes can partake (including Judas Iscacriot)

Devil  To throw another monkey wrench into the works consider John 17:12 . Some say Judas lost his salvation.  Hmm

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Tobias Lampert | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 26 2011 11:40 AM

Matthew C Jones:

I can see where Judas partaking of the Eucharist would be very problematic with Closed Communion adherants.

There is also another perspective called "Close Communion"   (Presbyterian & others)

I first wrote "Close Communion" but wasn't sure about English terminology. So I was right by guessing there's a difference between Closed and Close Communion in English. Well, in this case I'd run a search on "Close Communion" first. :)

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 26 2011 11:44 AM

Pastor Jesse Blevins :

in marks gospel it does not say that Judas left. in verse 23 it says they all drink from it. Mark does not exclude Judas ; he could have easily.

We do know Judas left, at some point.  I see no conflict between the accounts just because one relates it and another does not.  I think it is possible Judas did partake and it is possible he left without partaking. There seems to be a difference between eating a meal and the ordinance of Communion. Could it be both took place and Judas left between the two events?  The theological implications are pretty important.

 

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