Was Judas present when Christ instituted Communion?

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tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 26 2011 11:49 AM

The denominations that practice closed communion (and this is just from my understanding - this is not my tradition) use 1 Corinthians 11:29 to support their theological stance.  If I am wrong, please correct me.

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Theolobias | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 26 2011 11:51 AM

Matthew C Jones:
We do know Judas left, at some point.  I see no conflict between the accounts just because one relates it and another does not.  I think it is possible Judas did partake and it is possible he left without partaking. There seems to be a difference between eating a meal and the ordinance of Communion. Could it be both took place and Judas left between the two events?  The theological implications are pretty important.

While that is right, Luke 22 is much more clear about this question, since verse 21 comes after Communion - one might say Judas could have gone outside for a while just to join the others after that again and then leaving for good, but this would be pretty speculative.

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Theolobias | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 26 2011 11:54 AM

tom collinge:
The denominations that practice closed communion (and this is just from my understanding - this is not my tradition) use 1 Corinthians 11:29 to support their theological stance.  If I am wrong, please correct me.

I think that's right, Tom - however, running a Google search for "Close Communion" or "Closed Communion" and "Judas" tells me there are a lot of discussions out there supporting the view that Judas was absent during Communion.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 26 2011 11:58 AM

Theolobias:

Matthew C Jones:

I can see where Judas partaking of the Eucharist would be very problematic with Closed Communion adherants.

There is also another perspective called "Close Communion"   (Presbyterian & others)

I first wrote "Close Communion" but wasn't sure about English terminology. So I was right by guessing there's a difference between Closed and Close Communion in English. Well, in this case I'd run a search on "Close Communion" first. :)

Your understanding of the English terminology was correct from the beginning. I would agree a search of "Closed Communion" is most applicable here. Reading on the other perspectives will highlight the differences and broaden our understanding. (The differing views on Communion can cause quite a stir so I hope we keep the discussion on the surface.)

 

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tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 26 2011 11:59 AM

Theolobias:

tom collinge:
Because the Eucharist is not in John, we cannot use John to support or deny the presence of Judas when Jesus Instituted the Lord’s Supper.

Tom, I'm totally aware of that - however, I think John 13 should be mentioned since it shows strong textual connections (Traditionskritik) to Matthew 26, Mark 14 and Luke 22.

I disagree because we are now imposing the theology found in Matthew (or Mark or Luke) onto John.  The theology found in Matthew is different than the theology found in Mark with is different than what is found in Luke which is different than what is found in John.

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tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 26 2011 12:03 PM

Theolobias:
I think that's right, Tom - however, running a Google search for "Close Communion" or "Closed Communion" and "Judas" tells me there are a lot of discussions out there supporting the view that Judas was absent during Communion.

I would put this into the same category that I put the statement that I once heard that Jesus didn't really drink wine, it was grape juice - eisegesis.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 26 2011 12:16 PM

tom collinge:

The denominations that practice closed communion (and this is just from my understanding - this is not my tradition) use 1 Corinthians 11:29 to support their theological stance.  If I am wrong, please correct me.

I was raised with the practice of open communion. The congregation I presently worship with practices closed communion.

They do use 1 Corinthians 11:29 , as you say,  to support the practice.

I find the preceding verse   (1 Corinthians 11:28) does not support others sitting in judgement of a believers worthiness to partake. A survey of famous preachers will reveal the judgment of others does not reveal moral or spiritual failures as well as a self-examination would. That said, I would have a problem with a blatantly sinning person to partake with fellow believers. But that is where church discipline should kick in.

I'm feeling I have strayed too far afield theologically.  I'm not attempting to dictate doctrine here. Each perspective has genuine issues that are being addressed.

 

 

 

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Rev. Wayne Paul Barrett | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 26 2011 12:36 PM

What do the Messianic Jewish resources say about this? (I don't have many of them yet; on my very extensive list of future purchases)

I ask because I think the fact that it was a Passover Seder meal is crucial. When in the meal did Judas leave? In John 13 Jesus dipped a piece of unleavened bread and gave it to Judas and then he left; this would seem to indicate that it was before the institution because that particular "dipping" takes place early in the Seder celebration and most likely it was during the breaking of the middle piece of unleavened bread, the hidden Afikomen, that was Jesus' body given for us. It seems he definitely left before the cup would have come in the course of the meal.

Thanks for raising an important question; hopefully we can all point each other to resources within Logos that can help clarify the issue.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 26 2011 1:05 PM

Rev. Wayne Paul Barrett:
it was a Passover Seder meal is crucial.

Rev. Wayne Paul Barrett:
that particular "dipping" takes place early in the Seder celebration and most likely it was during the breaking of the middle piece of unleavened bread, the hidden Afikomen, that was Jesus' body given for us. It seems he definitely left before the cup would have come in the course of the meal.

Very good.   This is becoming very interesting.

I've got to be careful here. Preconceived ideas about Judas perishing under the old covenant (Law) because he was no part of the new (Grace) .............

I've got some of those resources. Time to look at them.

 

 

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tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 26 2011 1:10 PM

Rev. Wayne Paul Barrett:

What do the Messianic Jewish resources say about this? (I don't have many of them yet; on my very extensive list of future purchases)

I ask because I think the fact that it was a Passover Seder meal is crucial. When in the meal did Judas leave? In John 13 Jesus dipped a piece of unleavened bread and gave it to Judas and then he left; this would seem to indicate that it was before the institution because that particular "dipping" takes place early in the Seder celebration and most likely it was during the breaking of the middle piece of unleavened bread, the hidden Afikomen, that was Jesus' body given for us. It seems he definitely left before the cup would have come in the course of the meal.

Thanks for raising an important question; hopefully we can all point each other to resources within Logos that can help clarify the issue.

But if we look at Luke, Judas is clearly at the table.

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Theolobias | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 26 2011 3:18 PM

tom collinge:
I disagree because we are now imposing the theology found in Matthew (or Mark or Luke) onto John.  The theology found in Matthew is different than the theology found in Mark with is different than what is found in Luke which is different than what is found in John.

Tom,

I wasn't imposing theology found in Matthew onto John at all, and there's no doubt John's theology is different from Mark's etc. I was simply stating there had been most likely a specific oral tradition of Judas being the betrayer and how Jesus dealt with this before the scriptural fixation of the Communion texts and John 13 went down, and the effects of this oral tradition can be clearly found in the Synoptic Gospels as well as in John's. Unless one is avoiding higher criticism, there's no real academic controversy about this particular point. As I said, John 13 doesn't deal with Communion, but since it is clearly linked to the Synoptic Communion texts, it can at least indirectly endorse the Synoptic tradition stating that Judas was present during the institution of Communion.

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Theolobias | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 26 2011 3:19 PM

tom collinge:
I would put this into the same category that I put the statement that I once heard that Jesus didn't really drink wine, it was grape juice - eisegesis.

Me too.

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Jesse Blevins | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 26 2011 5:45 PM

I want to share with you this quote from Mills: 

 

You will notice that Jesus gave the Eucharist to the apostles on two separate occasions during the Last Supper. On the first occasion (recorded in Luke), He served wine and then bread, while on the second occasion this order was reversed. On the first occasion an unsaved person (Judas) was present, so the offer of redemption through Jesus’ blood was first extended to him. On the second occasion, fellowship in Jesus’ life was emphasized, and this is appropriate, as all the participants were redeemed. It is interesting that Paul, who was Luke’s mentor, nevertheless follows the same order as Matthew and Mark in 1 Corinthians 11, but then that epistle was addressed to saints.

 Mills, M. (1999). The Life of Christ: A Study Guide to the Gospel Record (Mt 26:26–Mk 14:25). Dallas, TX: 3E Ministries.

 

Ironside: says Judas was not present. 

Lenski: Judas was not present.

St. Augustine and some of the early church fathers: Say that Judas was present.  

Posts 557
Jesse Blevins | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 26 2011 6:01 PM

 

What do the Messianic Jewish resources say about this? (I don't have many of them yet; on my very extensive list of future purchases)

I ask because I think the fact that it was a Passover Seder meal is crucial. When in the meal did Judas leave? In John 13 Jesus dipped a piece of unleavened bread and gave it to Judas and then he left; this would seem to indicate that it was before the institution because that particular "dipping" takes place early in the Seder celebration and most likely it was during the breaking of the middle piece of unleavened bread, the hidden Afikomen, that was Jesus' body given for us. It seems he definitely left before the cup would have come in the course of the meal.

Upon several of these points there is dispute among the Jewish writers, but the order, as here given, is substantially according to the paschal ritual of the Talmudists. Whether this order was generally followed in our Saviour’s time, is very doubtful; nor, if so, is it by any means certain that He strictly followed it.

 

Andrews, S. J. (1889). The life of Our Lord upon the earth; considered in its historical, chronological, and geographical relations (467). New York: Charles Scribner's sons.

 

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 26 2011 6:03 PM

Pastor Jesse Blevins :

luke 22 definitely says yes he was present.

It says he was present at the meal, but if you notice when the actual celebration of the Eucharist begins it states that he used the "cup after supper."  If Judas left sometime during the meal then didn't return until he led the temple police to Jesus in the garden, he may not have been present for the Eucharist itself.  I fail to see, however, what significance it has.  Remember Paul's words, "For all who eat and drink without discerning the body, eat and drink judgment against themselves. "

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יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 26 2011 6:28 PM

Pastor Jesse Blevins :

 

I want to share with you this quote from Mills: 

 

You will notice that Jesus gave the Eucharist to the apostles on two separate occasions during the Last Supper. On the first occasion (recorded in Luke), He served wine and then bread, while on the second occasion this order was reversed. On the first occasion an unsaved person (Judas) was present, so the offer of redemption through Jesus’ blood was first extended to him. On the second occasion, fellowship in Jesus’ life was emphasized, and this is appropriate, as all the participants were redeemed. It is interesting that Paul, who was Luke’s mentor, nevertheless follows the same order as Matthew and Mark in 1 Corinthians 11, but then that epistle was addressed to saints.

 Mills, M. (1999). The Life of Christ: A Study Guide to the Gospel Record (Mt 26:26Mk 14:25). Dallas, TX: 3E Ministries.

 

 

Ironside: says Judas was not present. 

Lenski: Judas was not present.

St. Augustine and some of the early church fathers: Say that Judas was present.  

Hello Jesse,

Because I have never heard of the theological argument that Jesus gave the Eucharist twice during the last supper, I decided to look up Mr. Monty Mills and the publishing company who produced these items 3E Ministries.

I could not find anything that was written by Mr. Mills on Amazon or Barns & Noble, and I could not find any information on Mr. Mills.

For 3E Ministries, I only found the following information: the company was established in 1975, incorporated in Texas, current estimates show this company has an annual revenue of 56,000, and employs a staff of approximately 1.

Based on my own study and this information, I personally am not going to put a lot of weight behind what Mr. Mills says concerning Jesus giving the Eucharist twice during the last supper.

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Jesse Blevins | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 26 2011 6:30 PM

Was Judas present when Christ instituted Communion?  

Here is a list of people that defend that he was or deny that he was: 

Wichelhaus (257) enumerates as its defenders, Cyprian, Jerome, Augustine, Chrysostom, the two Cyrils, Theodoret; and later, Bellarmine, Baronius, Maldonatus, Gerhard, Beza, Bucer, Lightfoot, Bengel.

Calvin is undecided. Probabile tamen esse non nego Judam affuisse.

It is affirmed by the Lutherans, but denied by the Reformed.

Of the later commentators affirming it, are McKnight, Krafft, Patritius, Stier, Alford;

denying it, Meyer, Tischendorf, Robinson, Lichtenstein, Friedlieb, Bucher, Ebrard, Lange, Wieseler, Riggenbach, Ellicott. For an interesting discussion of the point, see Bynaeus, i. 443.

Andrews, S. J. (1889). The life of Our Lord upon the earth; considered in its historical, chronological, and geographical relations. New York: Charles Scribner's sons.

 

How one answers the question is important because it will help shape one's beliefs concerning who can receive the Eucharist. For interesting insight on the question of worthiness to commune read the works of Wesley (very insightful).     

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Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 26 2011 6:44 PM

Pastor Jesse Blevins :

 

Was Judas present when Christ instituted Communion?  

Here is a list of people that defend that he was or deny that he was: 

Wichelhaus (257) enumerates as its defenders, Cyprian, Jerome, Augustine, Chrysostom, the two Cyrils, Theodoret; and later, Bellarmine, Baronius, Maldonatus, Gerhard, Beza, Bucer, Lightfoot, Bengel.

Calvin is undecided. Probabile tamen esse non nego Judam affuisse.

It is affirmed by the Lutherans, but denied by the Reformed.

Of the later commentators affirming it, are McKnight, Krafft, Patritius, Stier, Alford;

denying it, Meyer, Tischendorf, Robinson, Lichtenstein, Friedlieb, Bucher, Ebrard, Lange, Wieseler, Riggenbach, Ellicott. For an interesting discussion of the point, see Bynaeus, i. 443.

Andrews, S. J. (1889). The life of Our Lord upon the earth; considered in its historical, chronological, and geographical relations. New York: Charles Scribner's sons.

 

 

How one answers the question is important because it will help shape one's beliefs concerning who can receive the Eucharist. For interesting insight on the question of worthiness to commune read the works of Wesley (very insightful).     

Peace to you, Pastor Jesse,

                      I have Andrews in my library, and -- although I have searched -- I cannot find what you said...

"It is affirmed by the Lutherans, but denied by the Reformed. "  

I don't agree with that at all; and I'm trying to use my resources to get at this also......          Can you give me a page number, please?

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 26 2011 6:57 PM

Milford Charles Murray:
I don't agree with that at all; and I'm trying to use my resources to get at this also......          Can you give me a page number, please?

It's on p.473 the text he quotes is from the footnote at the end of the article.

EDIT: I'm not sure I agree with the statement either. BTW, I've grew up with 'Close' communion as Reformed and new some Missouri Synod Lutherans who practiced a very 'Closed' communion (only members of the celebrating church could participate). So either the statement is a huge over-generalization, or it demonstrates that the presence of Judas at the institution is not essential to the practice of 'close' or 'closed' communion.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

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Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 26 2011 7:11 PM

Thanks, Richard!

           I should have been a bit more patient and worked a little harder!    *smile*

                Actually, I missed that.  Also missed also, thereby, the "when" of the quote re. which Lutherans and which Reformed were being spoken of.

Sorry!

                          Peace to all!    

Edit:   I appreciate your "edit" also, Richard!              *smile*                 

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

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