Was Judas present when Christ instituted Communion?

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Jesse Blevins | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 26 2011 7:22 PM

Thanks Richard for looking that up.

 

I had read the question on my smart phone and got on the computer to post it and found that you answered it.   

As far as why I posted this question on the forum:  

I asked this question because I am working on some sermons for Holy Week and got drawn in by it as I was doing my own research. I hope that this discussion may be of some use in your own sermon preparation (for those of you that are pastors) and will help my other brothers and sisters on the Logos forums to more deeply reflect on this issue.

For those of you that think that Judas was there. Fine.

For those of you that think that Judas was not there. Fine.

 

I'm not sure personally that I will ever come to a 100% dogmatic answer to it.  For now, I lean more to the opinion that he was there. My own personal theology is not to be dogmatic on matters of opinion and if I am going to err I definitely prefer to err on the side of grace. I guess that also explains why I lean more toward the practice of open communion. Grace and Peace.      

 

 

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Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 26 2011 7:58 PM

Peace, Jesse!

         Thank you for posting the question on the Forums.  It gave us all an opportunity to reflect again on many things!          *smile*                And to check out a few of our resources ...          And to try out a few techniques to use this "mighty" Bible Software!           And to touch base with Brothers and to Sisters!!!

                         God Bless you and your family  ---   and also your Preaching His Word to His People.

You seem to have a very good heart  --  and a very good attitude indeed!

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 26 2011 8:35 PM

Matthew C Jones:
I can see where Judas partaking of the Eucharist would be very problematic with Closed Communion adherants.

Possibly but not necessarily

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 26 2011 8:39 PM

Matthew C Jones:
Very good.   This is becoming very interesting.

Next thing you know, you'll be trying to count cups.Smile

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 26 2011 8:45 PM

MJ. Smith:
Next thing you know, you'll be trying to count cups.Smile

1? 

One branch of the Church of Christ used to use one cup and pass it around.

I don't know if they still do.

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 26 2011 9:02 PM

Matthew C Jones:

MJ. Smith:
Next thing you know, you'll be trying to count cups.Smile

1? 

One branch of the Church of Christ used to use one cup and pass it around.

I don't know if they still do.

In the Episcopal Church we use a common cup though there is generally more than one so that the communicants can be served more rapidly.  Of course, the number of cups depends on the size of the congregation.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 26 2011 9:10 PM

Pastor Jesse Blevins :

For those of you that think that Judas was there. Fine.

For those of you that think that Judas was not there. Fine.

And what about those of us who just don't know for sure? Confused Is that fine too?

Pastor Jesse Blevins :
will help my other brothers and sisters on the Logos forums to more deeply reflect on this issue.

This has certainly been a point my family has enjoyed discussing today. It reminds me to carefully read and meditate of the scriptures.

I do not wish to debate the point but there are some who believe Judas was saved but turned away, discarding his salvation. They base that on Jesus prayer in John 17:12 saying Jesus could not have lost what he never possessed. Most denominations that don't embrace "once-saved, always-saved" would not be troubled believing Judas had a free will to walk away from a saved state."   It does not bear on my relationship with my Lord, so I will humbly let it rest.

 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 26 2011 9:23 PM

Matthew C Jones:
And what about those of us who just don't know for sure? Confused Is that fine too?

No, Matthew, you have to go for the ultimate evidence - Judas posed with the others for the pictureBig SmileDevilZip it!

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 27 2011 6:15 AM

MJ. Smith:
No, Matthew, you have to go for the ultimate evidence - Judas posed with the others for the pictureBig SmileDevilZip it!

Photoshop Devil

Posts 67
Ruminator | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 27 2011 6:36 AM

One thing you'll notice is that there were no gentiles present. This is because this was a Jewish observance of a Jewish celebration of the release of the Jews from Egyptian bondage. Jesus commandeers this and turns it into the memorial of his own death, and the pita bread and wine the symbols of his body and blood as "the death brought in" to implement the new testament that God is making with the Jews (Hebrews 9:16-17).

Note that because the NT writers had Greek  scriptures, they did not understand TORAH and BRIT but thought in terms of a NOMOS and DIAQHKH ("law" and "testament"). As "To the Hebrews" says (writing to Samaritans), the testament is a post-humous matter. (The NET bible refers to it as a "will").

So, it is in appropriate for gentiles to partake of the pita bread or the wine (and those are the correct "elements").

The new covenant is specifically with Jews (from Breton's LXX):

Jer 38:31

 

 

Jer 38:32

 

not according to the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day when I took hold of their hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; for they abode not in my covenant, and I disregarded them, saith the Lord.

Jer 38:33

 

For this is my covenant which I will make with the house of Israel; after those days, saith the Lord, I will surely put my laws into their mind, and write them on their hearts; and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people.

Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant **with the house of Israel, and with the house of Juda**:
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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 27 2011 7:19 AM

WoundedEgo ... I guess we can safely assume that your coffee table has a limited personage (referring to Bob's forum guidelines). That's not to say your point is invalid etc.


Posts 67
Ruminator | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 27 2011 7:59 AM

"Christian Sedona" tours... interesting business concept. The desert has a mysterious beauty.

Posts 5
diakon Piter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 7 2012 3:17 PM

Sorry for my bad english, i'am from Russia  I'm writing a diploma on great Thursday and i very need quote from Cyprian, Jerome, Augustine the two Cyrils, Theodoret, that Judas was present when Christ instituted Communion.And he took the body and blood of the Savior.

The works of these fathers are not fully translated from Latin and Greek into Russian.

For its part, can share quotes Symeon the New Theologian, St. Cyril of Alexandria, Isidore Pelusiota, Varsonofy great prophet, and John, Cosmas Mayumskogo, Roman Melodist that Judas Communion.

Posts 67
Ruminator | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 7 2012 3:33 PM

diakon Piter, your post saddened me because it seemed that you were trying very hard to "get the right answer" to a very unimportant question.

Posts 5
diakon Piter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 7 2012 3:48 PM

This is a very important question, if rejected Judah Christ to communion, it turns out that Judas was predestined to die. But most fathers just say that Christ gave to Judas a maximum opportunity to save himself. Christ wanted the Judas was saved. Judas, after eating the Body and Blood, does not have thoughts betray.

Posts 67
Ruminator | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 7 2012 3:49 PM

Still.. very saddening. Go get a girlfriend pregnant (be fruitful and multiply)...

Posts 5
diakon Piter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 7 2012 3:52 PM

Eastern Fathers, I found consensus patrum, but not Western, only Augustine

Sorry for the translation I write with the help of a googl translator

Posts 5
diakon Piter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 7 2012 3:53 PM

My wife is pregnant yet[:)

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 7 2012 4:17 PM

diakon Piter:

This is a very important question, if rejected Judah Christ to communion, it turns out that Judas was predestined to die. But most fathers just say that Christ gave to Judas a maximum opportunity to save himself. Christ wanted the Judas was saved. Judas, after eating the Body and Blood, does not have thoughts betray.

There are differing accounts of the meal which Jesus shared with his disciples which don't always agree in all respects.  If you look at Lk 22:14-23, it would appear that Judas was present and took part in the elements

14 When the hour came, he took his place at the table, and the apostles with him. 15 He said to them, "I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer; 16 for I tell you, I will not eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God." 17 Then he took a cup, and after giving thanks he said, "Take this and divide it among yourselves; 18 for I tell you that from now on I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes." 19 Then he took a loaf of bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me." 20 And he did the same with the cup after supper, saying, "This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood. 21 But see, the one who betrays me is with me, and his hand is on the table. 22 For the Son of Man is going as it has been determined, but woe to that one by whom he is betrayed!" 23 Then they began to ask one another which one of them it could be who would do this.

14 И когда настал час, Он возлег, и двенадцать Апостолов с Ним,
15 и сказал им: очень желал Я есть с вами сию пасху прежде Моего страдания,
16 ибо сказываю вам, что уже не буду есть ее, пока она не совершится в Царствии Божием.
17 И, взяв чашу и благодарив, сказал: приимите ее и разделите между собою,
18 ибо сказываю вам, что не буду пить от плода виноградного, доколе не придет Царствие Божие.
19 И, взяв хлеб и благодарив, преломил и подал им, говоря: сие есть тело Мое, которое за вас предается; сие творите в Мое воспоминание.
20 Также и чашу после вечери, говоря: сия чаша есть Новый Завет в Моей крови, которая за вас проливается.
21 И вот, рука предающего Меня со Мною за столом;
22 впрочем, Сын Человеческий идет по предназначению, но горе тому человеку, которым Он предается.
23 И они начали спрашивать друг друга, кто бы из них был, который это сделает.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 5
diakon Piter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 7 2012 4:34 PM

I understand you (I study at the seminary, and I know the study of the Jewish Passover). But the Fathers were more open than we know. And I'm interested in Western thought - the Latin Fathers. I understand that only Hilary Piktaviysky to speak against the sacrament of Judah. Although he was based in Hilary exegesis on Origen, and Origen believed that Judas Communion.

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