Was Judas present when Christ instituted Communion?

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Ruminator | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 7 2012 4:52 PM

So if you could control the text, what would it say? How would it read?

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 7 2012 6:24 PM

diakon Piter:
i very need quote from Cyprian, Jerome, Augustine the two Cyrils, Theodoret, that Judas was present when Christ instituted Communion.And he took the body and blood of the Savior.

I can't find exactly what you want but these were found by search Logos for Judas WITHIN 40 WORDS institution (then I tried bread, body etc. to see where I found anything relevant.

  Chapter XL.—How the Steps in the Passion of the Saviour Were Predetermined in Prophecy. The Passover. The Treachery of Judas. The Institution of the Lord’s Supper. The Docetic Error of Marcion Confuted by the Body and the Blood of the Lord Jesus Christ.

In like manner does He also know the very time it behoved Him to suffer, since the law prefigures His passion. Accordingly, of all the festal days of the Jews He chose the passover.1587 In this Moses had declared that there was a sacred mystery:1588 “It is the Lord’s passover.”1589 How earnestly, therefore, does He manifest the bent of His soul: “With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer.”1590 What a destroyer of the law was this, who actually longed to keep its passover! Could it be that He was so fond of Jewish lamb?1591 But was it not because He had to be “led like a lamb to the slaughter; and because, as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so was He not to open His mouth,”1592 that He so profoundly wished to accomplish the symbol of His own redeeming blood? He might also have been betrayed by any stranger, did I not find that even here too He fulfilled a Psalm: “He who did eat bread with me hath lifted up1593 his heel against me.”1594 And without a price might He have been betrayed. For what need of a traitor was there in the case of one who offered Himself to the people openly, and might quite as easily have been captured by force as taken by treachery? This might no doubt have been well enough for another Christ, but would not have been suitable in One who was accomplishing prophecies. For it was written, “The righteous one did they sell for silver.”1595 The very amount and the destination1596 of the money, which on Judas’ remorse was recalled from its first purpose of a fee,1597 and appropriated to the purchase of a potter’s field, as narrated in the Gospel of Matthew, were clearly foretold by Jeremiah:1598 “And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of Him who was valued1599 and gave them for the potter’s field.” When He so earnestly expressed His desire to eat the passover, He considered it His own feast; for it would have been unworthy of God to desire to partake of what was not His own. Then, having taken the bread and given it to His disciples, He made it His own body, by saying, “This is my body,”1600 that is, the figure of my body. A figure, however, there could not have been, unless there were first a veritable body.1601 An empty thing, or phantom, is incapable of a figure. If, however, (as Marcion might say,) He pretended the bread was His body, because He lacked the truth of bodily substance, it follows that He must have given bread for us. It would contribute very well to the support of Marcion’s theory of a phantom body,1602 that bread should have been crucified!But why call His body bread, and not rather (some other edible thing, say) a melon,1603 which Marcion must have had in lieu of a heart! He did not understand how ancient was this figure of the body of Christ, who said Himself by Jeremiah: “I was like a lamb or an ox that is brought to the slaughter, and I knew not that1604 they devised a device against me, saying, Let us cast the tree upon His bread,”1605 which means, of course, the cross upon His body. And thus, casting light, as He always did, upon the ancient prophecies,1606 He declared plainly enough what He meant by the bread, when He called the bread His own body. He likewise, when mentioning the cup and making the new testament to be sealed “in His blood,”1607 affirms the reality of His body. For no blood can belong to a body which is not a body of flesh. If any sort of body were presented to our view, which is not one of flesh, not being fleshly, it would not possess blood. Thus, from the evidence of the flesh, we get a proof of the body, and a proof of the flesh from the evidence of the blood. In order, however, that you may discover how anciently wine is used as a figure for blood, turn to Isaiah, who asks, “Who is this that cometh from Edom, from Bosor with garments dyed in red, so glorious in His apparel, in the greatness of his might? Why are thy garments red, and thy raiment as his who cometh from the treading of the full winepress? ”1608 The prophetic Spirit contemplates the Lord as if He were already on His way to His passion, clad in His fleshly nature; and as He was to suffer therein, He represents the bleeding condition of His flesh under the metaphor of garments dyed in red, as if reddened in the treading and crushing process of the wine-press, from which the labourers descend reddened with the wine-juice, like men stained in blood. Much more clearly still does the book of Genesis foretell this, when (in the blessing of Judah, out of whose tribe Christ was to come according to the flesh) it even then delineated Christ in the person of that patriarch,1609 saying, “He washed His garments in wine, and His clothes in the blood of grapes”1610 —in His garments and clothes the prophecy pointed out his flesh, and His blood in the wine. Thus did He now consecrate His blood in wine, who then (by the patriarch) used the figure of wine to describe His blood.


Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson and A. Cleveland Coxe, The Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol. III : Translations of the Writings of the Fathers Down to A.D. 325, 417-19 (Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems, 1997).

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[XI] 17. That expression also of His, “He that eateth My Flesh and drinketh My Blood dwelleth in Me, and I in him,”42 how must we understand? Can we include in these words those even of whom the Apostle says, “that they eat and drink judgment to themselves;”43 when they eat this flesh and drink this blood? What! did Judas the impious seller and betrayer of his Master44 (though, as Luke the Evangelist declares more plainly, he ate and drank with the rest of His disciples this first Sacrament of His body and blood, consecrated45 by the Lord’s hands), did he “dwell in Christ and Christ in him “? Do so many, in fine, who either in hypocrisy eat that flesh and drink that blood, or who after they have eaten and drunk become apostate, do they “dwell in Christ or Christ in them”? Yet assuredly there is a certain manner of eating that Flesh and drinking that Blood, in which whosoever eateth and drinketh,” he dwelleth in Christand Christ in him.” As then he doth not “dwell in Christ and Christ in him,” who “eateth the Flesh and drinketh the Blood of Christ” in any manner whatsoever, but only in some certain manner, to which He doubtless had regard when He spake these words. So in this expression also, “He that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness,” he is not guilty of this unpardonable sin, who shall blaspheme in any way whatever, but in that particular way, which it is His will, who uttered this true and terrible sentence, that we should seek out and understand.

Philip Schaff, The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers Vol. VI, 323 (Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems, 1997).

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95. We have an example of this, for when Judas had received the bread from Christ the devil entered into his heart, as though claiming his own property, as though retaining his right to his own portion, as though saying: He is not Thine but mine; clearly he is my servant, Thy betrayer, plainly he is mine. He sits at table with Thee, and serves me; with Thee he feasts, but is fed by me; from Thee he receives bread, from me money; with Thee he drinks, and has sold Thy Blood to me. And he proved how truly he spoke. Then Christ departed from him, Judas also himself left Jesus and followed the devil.

Philip Schaff, The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers Second Series Vol. X, 471 (Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems, 1997).

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3. But it was not then, as some thoughtless readers suppose, that Judas received the body of Christ. For we are to understand that the Lord had already dispensed to all of them the sacrament of His body and blood, when Judas also was present, as very clearly related by Saint Luke;5 and it was after this that we come to the moment when, in accordance with John’s account, the Lord made a full disclosure of His betrayer by dipping and holding out to him the morsel of bread, and intimating perhaps by the dipping of the bread the false pretensions of the other. For the dipping of a thing does not always imply its washing; but some things are dipped in order to be dyed. But if a good meaning is to be here attached to the dipping, his ingratitude for that good was deservedly followed by damnation.

Philip Schaff, The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers Vol. VII, 313 (Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems, 1997).

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And the Lord being silent, I, who was one of the twelve, and more beloved by Him than the rest, arose up from lying in His bosom. and besought Him to tell who it should be that should betray Him. Yet neither then did our good Lord declare His name, but gave two signs of the betrayer: one by saying, “he that dippeth with me in the dish; ”a second, “to whom I shall give the sop when I have dipped it.” Nay, although he himself said, “Master, is it I? ”the Lord did not say Yes, but, “Thou hast said.” And being willing to affright him in the matter, He said: “Woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for him if he had never been born. Who, when he had heard that, went his way, and said to the priests, What will ye give me, and I will deliver Him unto you? And they bargained with him for thirty pieces of silver.”90 And the scripture was fulfilled, which said, “And they took91 the thirty pieces of silver, the price of Him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value, and gave them for the house of the potter.”92 And on the fifth day of the week, when we had eaten the passover with Him, and when Judas had dipped his hand into the dish, and received the sop, and was gone out by night, the Lord said to us: “The hour is come that ye shall be dispersed, and shall leave me alone; ”93 and every one vehemently affirming that they would not forsake Him, I Peter adding this promise, that I would even die with Him, He said, “Verily I say unto thee, Before the *** crows, thou shall thrice deny that thou knowest me.”94 And when He had delivered to us the representative mysteries of His precious body and blood, Judas not being present with us, He went out to the Mount of Olives, near the brook Cedron, where there was a garden;95 and we were with Him, and sang an hymn according to the custom.96 And being separated not far97 from us, He prayed to His Father, saying: “Father, remove this cup away from me; yet not my will, but Thine be done.”98

Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson and A. Cleveland Coxe, The Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol. VII : Translations of the Writings of the Fathers Down to A.D. 325, 444 (Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems, 1997).

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25. You raise the objection that all Israelites had the same measure of manna, an homer, and were alike in respect of dress, and hair, and beard, and shoes; as though we did not all alike partake of the body of Christ. In the Christian mysteries there is one means of sanctification for the master and the servant, the noble and the low-born, for the king and his soldiers, and yet, that which is one varies according to the merits of those who receive it.224 “Whosoever shall eat or drink unworthily shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.” Does it follow that because Judas drank of the same cup as the rest of the apostles, that he and they are of equal merit? But suppose that we do not choose to receive the sacrament, at all events we all have the same life, breathe the same air, have the same blood in our veins, are fed on the same food. Moreover, if our viands are improved by culinary skill and are made more palatable for the consumer, food of this kind does not satisfy nature, but tickles the appetite. We are all alike subject to hunger, all alike suffer with cold: we alike are shrivelled with the frost, or melted with the broiling heat. The sun and the moon, and all the company of the stars, the showers, the whole world run their course for us all alike, and, as the Gospel tells us, the same refreshing rain falls upon all, good and bad, just and unjust. If the present is a picture of the future, then the Sun of Righteousness will rise upon sinners as well as upon the righteous, upon the wicked and the holy, upon the heathen as well as upon Jews and Christians, though the Scripture says,225 “Unto you that fear the Lord shall the Sun of Righteousness arise.” If He will rise to those that fear, He will set to the despisers and the false prophets. The sheep which stand on the right hand will be brought into the kingdom of heaven, the goats will be thrust down to hell. The parable does not contrast the sheep one with another, or on the other hand the goats, but merely makes a difference between sheep and goats. The whole truth is not taught in a single passage: we must always bear in mind the exact point of an illustration. For instance, the ten virgins are not examples of the whole human race, but of the careful and the slothful: the former are ever anticipating the advent of our Lord, the latter abandon themselves to idle slumber without a thought of future judgment. And so at the end of the parable it is said,226 “Watch, for ye know not the day, nor the hour.” If at the deluge Noah was delivered, and the whole world perished, all men were flesh, and therefore were destroyed. You must either say that the sons of Noah and Noah for whose sake they were delivered were of unequal merit, or you must place the accursed Ham in the same rank as his father because he was delivered with him from the flood.

Philip Schaff, The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers Second Series Vol. VI, 407-08 (Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems, 1997).

 

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 7 2012 6:26 PM

WoundedEgo:
So if you could control the text, what would it say?

I don't understand what you mean by "control the text" ... can you ask in another way?

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 7 2012 8:44 PM

Rev. Wayne Paul Barrett:

What do the Messianic Jewish resources say about this? (I don't have many of them yet; on my very extensive list of future purchases)

I ask because I think the fact that it was a Passover Seder meal is crucial. When in the meal did Judas leave? In John 13 Jesus dipped a piece of unleavened bread and gave it to Judas and then he left; this would seem to indicate that it was before the institution because that particular "dipping" takes place early in the Seder celebration and most likely it was during the breaking of the middle piece of unleavened bread, the hidden Afikomen, that was Jesus' body given for us. It seems he definitely left before the cup would have come in the course of the meal.

Thanks for raising an important question; hopefully we can all point each other to resources within Logos that can help clarify the issue.

I consider myself a Messianic disciple, though I am not Jewish. Yeishuu`a emphatically DID NOT participate in a Passover Seder meal on the night in question because He never once participated in a Passover Seder. The reason for this is straightforward: the seder was not yet invented. Yeishuu`a DID keep the Biblical Passover, which included just three elements: lamb, unleavened bread, and bitter herbs. The seder (meaning the elaborate 15-step haggadah), however, was not invented until many years after the destruction of the temple. It is something that ought to be obvious. There was no reason for anything resembling the seder as long as the temple stood. I understood this before finding the external evidence and support for it, but I did find a Jewish writer who gives a great amount of evidence for this understanding in my Logos resources. Unfortunately, I don't rember his name.

Many Messianics, whether Jewish or not, overlook this historical fact about the seder. For instance, the seder plate wasn't invented until about AD1000, give or take, possibly much later. Some Messianics insist that the cup Yeishuu`a passed around was the so-called "third cup" of the so-called "four cups" that are part of the seder service. Obviously, this is anachronistic nonsense--nor does it agree with Scripture.

The seder was the rabbinic response to the destruction of the temple, but the seder such as it exists today has practically no historical evidence until at least AD300-500, and isn't really clearly referrenced until about AD700-900.

Just to make clear, there was no Afikomen at the Last Supper.

Also, just for the sake of clarity, someone mentioned "pita" bread earlier in this thread. I know what is meant, as pita bread is "flat" bread. However, pita bread is nontheless leavened bread, and the bread used for Passover and the Last Supper/Communion was without question unleavened.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 7 2012 8:54 PM

Until it is available in Logos see http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13376-seder

Before the schools of Hillel and Shammai arose in the days of King Herod, a service of thanks, of which the six "psalms of praise" (Ps. cxiii.-cxviii.) formed the nucleus, had already clustered around the meal of the Passover night; of this meal the roasted lamb, unleavened bread, and bitter herbs were necessary elements (Ex. l.c.; Num. ix. 11). The service began with the sanctification of the day as at other festivals, hence with a cup of wine (See Ḳiddush); another cup followed the after-supper grace as on other festive occasions. But to mark the evening as the most joyous in the year, two other cups were added: one after the "story" and before the meal, and one at the conclusion of the whole service. The Mishnah says (Pes. x. 1) that even the poorest man in Israel should not drink less than four cups of wine on this occasion, this number being justified by the four words employed in Ex. vi. 6-7 for the delivery of Israel from Egypt.

emphasis mine

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 7 2012 9:04 PM

David Paul:
I consider myself a Messianic disciple, though I am not Jewish. Yeishuu`a

Then why do you consistently use Yeishu`a rather than Jesus which is an anglicization of Ἰησοῦς.  The NT consistently uses Ἰησοῦς, and the reversion to (an incorrect) transliteration of the Hebrew name seems something of an affectation.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 7 2012 9:53 PM

George Somsel:

David Paul:
I consider myself a Messianic disciple, though I am not Jewish. Yeishuu`a

Then why do you consistently use Yeishu`a rather than Jesus which is an anglicization of Ἰησοῦς.  The NT consistently uses Ἰησοῦς, and the reversion to (an incorrect) transliteration of the Hebrew name seems something of an affectation.

Nothing incorrect about it. Yeishuu`a is the appropriate transliteration of יֵשׁוּעַ בִּן־נוּן  which is "Joshua" son of Nuun (Neh. 8:17). Prior to the Babylonian captivity, the name of Joshua is Y'hohshu`a ( יְהוֹשֻׁעַ ), but once they returned, as Neh. 8 shows, there was an apparent change in the pronunciation. Interestingly, it is this change which seems to prepare the way for the well-known Greek Ἰησοῦς that you mentioned. The "long A" sound of the tseirei (with the yohdh producing "Yay") naturally becomes the "EE-AY" sound of the iota-eta diphthong.

It's not an affectation, it's the only accurate post-captivity pronunciation of Yeishuu`a's name.

As far as Messianics are concerned, we are strong advocates of Hebraic perspective, which includes using as much Hebrew as we can comfortably manage. Obviously, some are capable of more than others.

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 7 2012 10:36 PM

David Paul:

It's not an affectation, it's the only accurate post-captivity pronunciation of Yeishuu`a's name.

As far as Messianics are concerned, we are strong advocates of Hebraic perspective, which includes use of using as much Hebrew as we can comfortably manage. Obviously, some are capable of more than others.

In other words, you choose to use a late, probably Aramaicized, pronunciation rather than an accurate Hebrew pronunciation (though I think "Yeyshua" would be better).  Still, it's an affectation.  You aren't Hebrew, and it's Ἰησοῦς (Iēsous) in Greek or Jesus in English.  Why pretend to be something you aren't?

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 7 2012 10:47 PM

MJ. Smith:

Until it is available in Logos see http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13376-seder

Before the schools of Hillel and Shammai arose in the days of King Herod, a service of thanks, of which the six "psalms of praise" (Ps. cxiii.-cxviii.) formed the nucleus, had already clustered around the meal of the Passover night; of this meal the roasted lamb, unleavened bread, and bitter herbs were necessary elements (Ex. l.c.; Num. ix. 11). The service began with the sanctification of the day as at other festivals, hence with a cup of wine (See Ḳiddush); another cup followed the after-supper grace as on other festive occasions. But to mark the evening as the most joyous in the year, two other cups were added: one after the "story" and before the meal, and one at the conclusion of the whole service. The Mishnah says (Pes. x. 1) that even the poorest man in Israel should not drink less than four cups of wine on this occasion, this number being justified by the four words employed in Ex. vi. 6-7 for the delivery of Israel from Egypt.

emphasis mine

Yes, the Mishna, which first began to be written approx. AD200, mentions four cups of wine. When, though, was this introduced? During the ROMAN OCCUPATION...apparently on some level because it was a Roman custom. Valid? Legitimate? Hardly.

http://www.angelfire.com/pa2/passover/thefourcupsofwineforpassover.html

Just for sake of information, the percentage of Mishnah and Talmud (J & B together) that was originally produced in the BC/BCE period is extremely tiny, almost certainly less than .00001%...and you could probably add a few more zeros behind that decimal.

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Josh | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 7 2012 10:57 PM

David Paul:

I consider myself a Messianic disciple, though I am not Jewish. Yeishuu`a emphatically DID NOT participate in a Passover Seder meal on the night in question because He never once participated in a Passover Seder. The reason for this is straightforward: the seder was not yet invented. Yeishuu`a DID keep the Biblical Passover, which included just three elements: lamb, unleavened bread, and bitter herbs. The seder (meaning the elaborate 15-step haggadah), however, was not invented until many years after the destruction of the temple. It is something that ought to be obvious. There was no reason for anything resembling the seder as long as the temple stood. I understood this before finding the external evidence and support for it, but I did find a Jewish writer who gives a great amount of evidence for this understanding in my Logos resources. Unfortunately, I don't rember his name.

Many Messianics, whether Jewish or not, overlook this historical fact about the seder. For instance, the seder plate wasn't invented until about AD1000, give or take, possibly much later. Some Messianics insist that the cup Yeishuu`a passed around was the so-called "third cup" of the so-called "four cups" that are part of the seder service. Obviously, this is anachronistic nonsense--nor does it agree with Scripture.

The seder was the rabbinic response to the destruction of the temple, but the seder such as it exists today has practically no historical evidence until at least AD300-500, and isn't really clearly referrenced until about AD700-900.

Just to make clear, there was no Afikomen at the Last Supper.

Also, just for the sake of clarity, someone mentioned "pita" bread earlier in this thread. I know what is meant, as pita bread is "flat" bread. However, pita bread is nontheless leavened bread, and the bread used for Passover and the Last Supper/Communion was without question unleavened.

I agree that the Passover meal Jesus participated in before his death did not look like the Seder meal practiced by Jews today. However, I have read some very interesting (and scholarly) sources that suggest that there were 4 cups used during Jesus' time and quite possibly a primitive form of afikomen.

It is not as "obvious" as you make it out to be. In fact, there is no definitive evidence either way.

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 7 2012 10:59 PM

George Somsel:

David Paul:

It's not an affectation, it's the only accurate post-captivity pronunciation of Yeishuu`a's name.

As far as Messianics are concerned, we are strong advocates of Hebraic perspective, which includes use of using as much Hebrew as we can comfortably manage. Obviously, some are capable of more than others.

In other words, you choose to use a late, probably Aramaicized, pronunciation rather than an accurate Hebrew pronunciation (though I think "Yeyshua" would be better).  Still, it's an affectation.  You aren't Hebrew, and it's Ἰησοῦς (Iēsous) in Greek or Jesus in English.  Why pretend to be something you aren't?

The name and pronunciation I use is the Biblical one that was in use at the time Yeishuu'a was alive. Aramaicized?? Dunno, maybe. But it is nonetheless the one that was in use, and the change may well have taken place for some prophetic reason, of which I am not aware. I do believe that His Hebrew name was Y'hohshu`a, but that apparently isn't what he was called. The shorter, post-captivity version, a la Neh. 8, is the name that was common for the many males who were given this same name during the inter-testimental period.

I am 100% Hebrew. Only Hebrews can be saved by definition. But that is getting doctrinal.

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Josh | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 7 2012 11:02 PM

David Paul:

The name and pronunciation I use is the Biblical one that was in use at the time Yeishuu'a was alive. Aramaicized?? Dunno, maybe. But it is nonetheless the one that was in use, and the change may well have taken place for some prophetic reason, of which I am not aware. I do believe that His Hebrew name was Y'hohshu`a, but that apparently isn't what he was called. The shorter, post-captivity version, a la Neh. 8, is the name that was common for the many males who were given this same name during the inter-testimental period.

I am 100% Hebrew. Only Hebrews can be saved by definition. But that is getting doctrinal.

The Gospel writers had no problem changing his name into its Greek form.

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 7 2012 11:32 PM

Joshua G:

writers had no problem changing his name into its Greek form.

Yes, for the same reason that Yeishuu`a spoke in parables and the prophets spoke in riddles, to hide the truth. About 50%, perhaps more, of prophecy cannot be understood unless one can negotiate Hebrew. By having the NT written in a different language, YHWH was able to easily keep the veil of the famine of the word in place for the last 2000 years. Most who studied the original languages during the last 2000 years studied Greek, very few Hebrew. It worked like a charm (pun intended--Prov. 31:30).

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 7 2012 11:53 PM

David Paul:
I am 100% Hebrew. Only Hebrews can be saved by definition. But that is getting doctrinal.

my emphasis

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 8 2012 12:06 AM

Jn. 5:24, 1 Jn. 3:14, Rev. 21:4

John's emphasis.

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 8 2012 12:28 AM

Joshua G:

I agree that the Passover meal Jesus participated in before his death did not look like the Seder meal practiced by Jews today. However, I have read some very interesting (and scholarly) sources that suggest that there were 4 cups used during Jesus' time and quite possibly a primitive form of afikomen.

It is not as "obvious" as you make it out to be. In fact, there is no definitive evidence either way.

Whether the four cups were used in Yeishuu`a's time or not is really not the point. The more pertinent question would be did He use four cups?? The answer ought to be obvious--of course not. (Deut. 4:2, Deut. 12:32, Eccl. 3:14). No more than the possibility that He practiced "qorbaan" as the Pharisee rabbis did (Mk. 7:10-13).

But the operative word you used is "suggest". Since absence of evidence is no evidence (even though "nothing" never leaves a trace), it will be virtually impossible to say for sure that the four cups (or anything at all, for that matter) didn't happen at a particular time. But it is immaterial either way. There is no chance He had four cups on the table--there was ONE that was passed. It was prophesied and had tremendous prophetic significance.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 8 2012 12:43 AM

Joshua G:

However, I have read some very interesting (and scholarly) sources that suggest that there were 4 cups used during Jesus' time and quite possibly a primitive form of afikomen.

It is not as "obvious" as you make it out to be. In fact, there is no definitive evidence either way.

If you like Scott Hahn you might find this interesting: http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9109fea1.asp By my offering this reference I neither affirm nor deny my agreement/disagreement with this article.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 2693
DominicM | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 8 2012 1:49 AM

Thanks MJ, for getting us back on topic, it was begging to be deleted as some people were beginning to adressing the poster and not the topic/message..


Do some partakers of the New Covenant still lie/cheat/steal/betray..? sadly yes, and because so, I dont see why would it matter if Judas was or wasnt there?

I favour the position that he was.. and would have likely snuck out at the end of the meal when he knew they were going to spend the evening - otherwise they would have arrested him at the house..

Hard proof, no, just my 2c
  

Never Deprive Anyone of Hope.. It Might Be ALL They Have

Posts 8893
fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 8 2012 4:25 AM

MJ. Smith:
If you like Scott Hahn you might find this interesting: http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9109fea1.asp

Are you stealing my line? Big Smile Good thing you did; I've suggested that article so many times it's beginning to feel embarrassing. However, your link doesn't seem to work; try this one instead: http://archive.catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9109fea1.asp.

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

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Posts 69
Ruminator | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 8 2012 5:41 AM

In other words, which view would be most amenable to you and your sect? Do you already hold to the idea of predestination, and you hope this text further supports, rather than challenges it? Or the other way around?

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